[mlenhart]

I just installed a Doug Bell tail wheel fork and an RV Rocket steering link to replace the standard Van`s parts on my RV-4. WOW, what a great improvement in steering control during taxiing and before tail lifts off on takeoff. It is now much smoother and I feel more in control, perhaps due to much less free play in the new units. Best $400 spent in a long time.

 

[rvaitor87]

Bell tailwheels

I have had on my -3 for about 5 years now, I love it! Very positive steering thruout take off and landing!

 

[glfrdug]

Nice to hear

Glad the install went well!

 

[Snowflake]

@mlenhart, welcome to Vans Airforce!

 

[ccsmith51]

I made the same upgrades to my -4 earlier this year, and completely agree!!!

 

[smokyray]

Even better...

I just installed a Doug Bell tail wheel fork and an RV Rocket steering link to replace the standard Van`s parts on my RV-4. WOW, what a great improvement in steering control during taxiing and before tail lifts off on takeoff. It is now much smoother and I feel more in control, perhaps due to much less free play in the new units. Best $400 spent in a long time.

Mark,
Doug Bell has a great product, so does Vince Frazier at Flyboy accessories. Personally, I have helped keep API in business as their tail wheel assemblies have graced all three of my RV's and amassed over 3000 hours without an issue.
If you ever decide to land at other than smooth improved surfaces or prepared grass you will find the Rocket steering link inferior to the twin stainless steel cables from Van's. In 20 Years of RV4 flying on gravel, soft turf or mud, my Rocket link was maxed out and steering was a question mark, especially on my Rocket...FYI (No bush flying? No worries)

Welcome to Doug's site, it's coma a long way since our Yahoo group in the 90's...

V/R
Smokey


API Tail Wheel

 

[ccsmith51]

"If you ever decide to land at other than smooth improved surfaces or prepared grass you will find the Rocket steering link inferior to the twin stainless steel cables from Van's."

I changed from chains to the Rocket link earlier this year and have been very happy.

However, I plan on flying west again next year to the ID and MT back country with others as I have in the past.

So, I'd really like to know why you feel my current Rocket link configuration is inferior to the chains configuration I had before for those types of surfaces (Johnson Creek, Smiley Creek, West Fork Lodge, Meadow Creek, etc.)

Thanks,

 

[smokyray]

Chain Chain Chain...

So, I'd really like to know why you feel my current Rocket link configuration is inferior to the chains configuration I had before for those types of surfaces (Johnson Creek, Smiley Creek, West Fork Lodge, Meadow Creek, etc.)

Thanks,

Chris,
To get my point, raise your fuselage off the deck where your TW is free to move. Now, hold the rudder still, grab the TW and move it side to side. The breakaway force and "give" on the Rocket link is weak. It also only steers from one side. One good whack or side force and you have no steering. I found on soft surfaces (All the strips you mentioned I consider smooth, Lower Loon, Soldier Bar, my home strip etc. is what I am talking about). the breakaway force on the Link made my steering ineffective when I needed it most.

So, I went with the Tail Lynx stainless steel cables from Van's store (not chains, I hate them) They are superior to anything I have tried and provide the positive feedback I like in "the goo".

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1378164105-128-597&browse=misc&product=tail-lynx

V/R
Smokey

 

[ccsmith51]

Chris,
To get my point, raise your fuselage off the deck where your TW is free to move. Now, hold the rudder still, grab the TW and move it side to side. The breakaway force and "give" on the Rocket link is weak. It also only steers from one side. One good whack or side force and you have no steering. I found on soft surfaces (All the strips you mentioned I consider smooth, Lower Loon, Soldier Bar, my home strip etc. is what I am talking about). the breakaway force on the Link made my steering ineffective when I needed it most.
So, I went with the stainless steel cables from Van's store (not chains, I hate them) They are superior to anything I have tried and provide the positive feedback I like in "the goo".

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1378164105-128-597&browse=misc&product=tail-lynx

V/R
Smokey

Interesting, those are the links that Hide, Bonzo, perhaps Aggressor, and some others in the group have. I shall reconsider my configuation before the trip next summer. Thanks for your input.

 

[smokyray]

Got that T shirt...

Interesting, those are the links that Hide, Bonzo, perhaps Aggressor, and some others in the group have. I shall reconsider my configuation before the trip next summer. Thanks for your input.

No worries Chris, my first trip to the Back-country with my 925lb then unpainted (couldn't afford paint) wood prop 150HP RV4 was in 96'. I landed at every strip I thought looked cool (my favorites then and now are Deadwood Reservoir and Upper Loon Creek) and met Galen Hanselman at a fuel stop in Twin Falls when he was revising "Fly Idaho." Got some great ideas and learned alot. I brought home a long "to do" list and shared my ideas with many builders at that time, Hide and the boys included.

Good gouge is a good thing...

V/R
Smokey

 

[kjelle69]

This installation and similar must lift the tail up a little bit, which I think could be bad for prop clearance and angle of stance. At least with the old shorter gear installed? Or is the difference so small that it does not matter?

 

[vfrazier]

Smokey,

The breakout force on the Rocket link has been a known issue for some time. However, after some gentle prodding from us, the new control arms from Wayne Hadath have a deeper locking pin notch that should give better locking.

We also have a tech sheet that describes how to modify your older control arm for better locking. Basically, you just deepen the little locking pin notch to let the pin engage more securely. Be careful not to widen it though!

With a bit of tweaking, the Rocket link gives very good service. However, some who "off-road" their RV's might want to retain the old-school chains and springs as they are very durable.

 

[smokyray]

Too cool for school...

This installation and similar must lift the tail up a little bit, which I think could be bad for prop clearance and angle of stance. At least with the old shorter gear installed? Or is the difference so small that it does not matter?

KJ,
Very minute difference on my short gear 4. No worries!

Vince,
Thanks for the update on the steering arm, I think cables are the only thing I can use in my "excursions".

BTW, The API assembly combined with your "hubcap" tailwheel was a winning combo on my HR2 and still is. Thanks again!

V/R
Smokey

PS: How's your six coming along? Can I sway you to the dark side to build an RVX?

 

[Snowflake]

To get my point, raise your fuselage off the deck where your TW is free to move. Now, hold the rudder still, grab the TW and move it side to side. The breakaway force and "give" on the Rocket link is weak. It also only steers from one side. One good whack or side force and you have no steering.

I think i'm missing something... Isn't the breakout force a function of the locking detent pin? Maybe the API tailwheel has a better detent pin arrangement?

I find that my tailwheel will break free and swivel quite easily, but I didn't really expect the tailwheel to ever be directly steered... The rudder seems to work quite well at taxi speeds, and at slower speeds the differential braking works better?

 

[penguin]

Chris,
To get my point, raise your fuselage off the deck where your TW is free to move. Now, hold the rudder still, grab the TW and move it side to side. The breakaway force and "give" on the Rocket link is weak. It also only steers from one side. One good whack or side force and you have no steering. I found on soft surfaces (All the strips you mentioned I consider smooth, Lower Loon, Soldier Bar, my home strip etc. is what I am talking about). the breakaway force on the Link made my steering ineffective when I needed it most.

So, I went with the Tail Lynx stainless steel cables from Van's store (not chains, I hate them) They are superior to anything I have tried and provide the positive feedback I like in "the goo".

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1378164105-128-597&browse=misc&product=tail-lynx

V/R
Smokey

+1, I use Tail Lynx on a One Design on mainly rough grass airfields - excellent

Pete

 

[vfrazier]

Snowflake asked:

"I think i'm missing something... Isn't the breakout force a function of the locking detent pin? Maybe the API tailwheel has a better detent pin arrangement?"

Yes, but....

This is difficult to describe without photos, but here's what we've found. The control arm on most Van's and others has a relatively small, 180 degree half moon shaped notch to engage the locking pin. We find that very often (almost always) the locking pin engagement can be improved by deepening the notch in the control arm.

So, what about the cam groove that is cut into the mounting socket, below the control arm? The locking pin is retracted (pushed in) by the action of the tailwheel fork swiveling about 45 degrees left or right. Deepening this groove also allows a better "lock".

Indeed, there is an interaction between all of these pieces. We make our locking pins a more blunt shape, cut our control arm notches deeper, and machine the cam grooves deeper. All of these things work together to help ensure that the steering does not come unlocked until the tailwheel fork swings to the cam groove extremes... where it is then supposed to unlock.

So, there really isn't any "breakout force", unless you shear the locking pin off, if your tailwheel system is working properly.

In other words, if you can cause your tailwheel fork to come unlocked while it is in trail with the rudder, then something is wrong. To check this, raise the tail, with the rudder in trail, hold the control arm perpendicular to the rudder and don't let it move. Now push the fork left or right. If it unlocks, then something is amiss.

 

[dealfair]

Great info Vince, thanks mucho!!

 

[Kiwi]

Mark,
Doug Bell has a great product, so does Vince Frazier at Flyboy accessories. Personally, I have helped keep API in business as their tail wheel assemblies have graced all three of my RV's and amassed over 3000 hours without an issue.
If you ever decide to land at other than smooth improved surfaces or prepared grass you will find the Rocket steering link inferior to the twin stainless steel cables from Van's. In 20 Years of RV4 flying on gravel, soft turf or mud, my Rocket link was maxed out and steering was a question mark, especially on my Rocket...FYI (No bush flying? No worries)

Welcome to Doug's site, it's coma a long way since our Yahoo group in the 90's...

V/R
Smokey


API Tail Wheel

Smokey,

How much of an advantage in the "rough stuff" is the API tailwheel over the "Vans derived" tailwheels? (Doug Bell, JD Air, Vince Frazier)
How much bigger is the API wheel itself over these other tailwheels?
Any idea of comparative weights?

Thanks,
Andrew.

 

[dealfair]

What???

Smokey,

How much of an advantage in the "rough stuff" is the API tailwheel over the "Vans derived" tailwheels? (Doug Bell, JD Air, Vince Frazier)
How much bigger is the API wheel itself over these other tailwheels?
Any idea of comparative weights?

Thanks,
Andrew.

Hi Andrew, I'm not going to speak for Smokey, but I don't believe he said that. My take on this is he's talking about the linkage. I don't see the other makes being a "Vans derived" tailwheel and the API not being one.
I don't understand this.

Cheers,

 

[Kiwi]

Hi Andrew, I'm not going to speak for Smokey, but I don't believe he said that. My take on this is he's talking about the linkage. I don't see the other makes being a "Vans derived" tailwheel and the API not being one.
I don't understand this.

Cheers,

Hi there,

I am gleaning from a couple of posts in this thread and other things Smokey has said about the sort of flying he enjoys that he has a preference for the API tailwheel. There must be a reason.

From what I can make out, aside from a Vans original and the API tailwheel, one has three choices for a tailwheel for your RV.
--Doug Bell
--JDAir
--Vince Frazier
All three are retrofit forks for the Vans tailwheel, hence I coined the term "Vans derived".
I do note that JDAir and Vince Frazier offer the upper bracket or knuckle joint as well, so it makes sense to buy the whole thing from them if you have no tailwheel.
I have also been reading this thread: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=83122

I don't have the luxury of lots of RV's to look at on my door step, so I'm pretty much reliant on what you guys say on the internet. I come from a background of flying and rebuilding Super Cubs where the gold standard is the Scott 3200 and even those fall apart. The "Vans derived" tailwheels look quite lightly built and I just wonder how they will hold up under the conditions which I will operate which just doesn't involve sealed runways. I am also concerned at how they will ride over the rough ground which is inevitably part of my operation.

Sorry if I was unclear or was trying to put words in Smokey's mouth!

Cheers,
Andrew.

 

[dealfair]

Hey Andrew, THANKS!!! I want to make sure I'M not missing anything. I can you know!
Like you, I really listen-up when Smokey (and everyone on this forum, actually; but especially Smokey) speaks. I get your point.
I really like "stout". I replaced the Vans original with the Bell forks and really like them. As mentioned, it appears these forks, other than Vans, provide a better escape mechanism if it gets in a hole. Being taller and having a slant, rather than the straight perpendicular presentation to the hole wall.
Real close attention to your tailwheel landing system (and mains) pays great dividends. Years ago on my first -4, I had the stinger break into (caused by small crack & rust) while I was in a slow roll out from landing on a nice grass strip. Fortunately it did no damage other than scare the YKW out of me and having to replace the stinger. It did heighten my awareness of what can go wrong. You are wise to be preparing now. Gee, I can understand you not wanting to be in the "outback" stranded by something you could have taken care of in a nice hangar back home!!

Best of luck to you and happy flying,

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

I'd like to add to the comment about taking care of the gear.
Marilyn, my wife has a 1980's vintage RV-4 with the stock VANs tailwheel.
I've upgraded my T-18 to Vince's Flyboy unit (he was great to work with, I needed a custom socket dia to fit my spring).
These units are lightly built, but compared to the Scott 3200, they make up for it in ease of maintenance.
All it takes is a 3/4" wrench, a rag and a block of wood. Just lift the tail and set the spring on a block, then use the wrench to take off the nut. swing the tailwheel 45 degrees to the side to retract the steering lock pin, and lower the tailwheel assembly out the bottom. Now use the rag to wipe down the assembly. if this is a field repair, wipe some of the good remaining grease onto the shaft to free up that stickyness, inspect the pin, spring, cam and tiller notch and reassemble.
If your at home, you can get out your wash basin, fresh grease, small files etc and give it the full deal.
Compared to a Maul Tailwheel, (had one on my T-18) this is a piece of cake!
I only add this comment because Marilyn's RV-4 had a sticky steering tailwheel. The previous owner just lived with it, and it was pretty distracting when I started flying it. Just pumping grease into the zerk fitting does not help. You need to hand lube the bushing. Good thing it's so easy to do.

 

[smokyray]

Some like it rough...

Smokey,

How much of an advantage in the "rough stuff" is the API tailwheel over the "Vans derived" tailwheels? (Doug Bell, JD Air, Vince Frazier)
How much bigger is the API wheel itself over these other tailwheels?
Any idea of comparative weights?

Thanks,
Andrew.

Andrew,
I flew my original stock, non-swivel Van's tailwheel for about 2 months back in 96' until several suare's into gravel brought the "engineering" light on in my brain. The original non-swivel Van's tail-wheel rod curves down 90 degrees with a nut on the end. The nut hits rocks easily and the leading edge of the fork also hit debris and rocks easily. The tight fitting fork was also prone to mud clogging in my gooey runway. Change was needed, big time.

At a fly-in in CA I saw a Pitts with a very cool looking dual fork tail-wheel and found out it was from Aviation Products Inc. a small company nearby. I immediately ordered one and removed my tail-spring, took the works to a machine shop and began the conversion. The result was stellar, a fully swiveling Cad plated dual fork tail wheel that worked very well on mud, gravel and soft sand. It didn't clog up with mud and the breakout forces on the swivel were perfect. Home run.

I have installed an API TW on all three of my RV/Rockets with no issues whatsoever and exposed to what I consider very challenging use. Realize that I mounted my first API before Van;s even had a full swivel option available. Since then many other options have arisen but I still like the API as it has proven itself time and again. One thing I was asked was did it reduce my prop clearance when it raised the tail slightly. My answer was "very little". If you want to see how high you tail has to go to strike the prop, try raising your tail-wheel sometime with the prop blade at the 12-6 position. You can't reach that high! I found a 69" prop was perfect for the short gear RV4 and my TW.

My favorite setup as I mentioned earlier is the API tail wheel/Tail lynx cables with Vince Fraziers hubcap wheel if you like a softer ride or for light weight and solidarity I currently use DJM mfg's lightweight solid rubber tire wheel.

My dos centavos...
Smokey

 

[Kiwi]

Thanks for the input guys!

Andrew.