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flyboy52a

Member
So right now I am designing my ideal RV-4. I will not be able to start it for about 6 months, so I have plenty of time to do some thinking. My current plan is to build it with a fastback, potentially RV-6 tanks, and a Delta Hawk diesel engine with a CS prop.

Does anyone out there know of a builder who has installed a Delta Hawk engine in their RV-4?
 
Other than the owner's Velocity and other factory test engines, I don't believe there are any flying examples of this engine. It's a neat idea, but they've been 6 months away from shipping for 15 years, and the price is off the charts. The engine is not well suited to sport airplanes like RVs IMHO.
 
Think twice then think again.

Hi

I wa one of the first to put a Wam120 in an RV9. In fact I designed most of the firewall forward for our set up. Its a lot of extra work with no guarantee that it will work. We were fortunate in that we got the engine cooling right fram the start, others did not and had a lot of problems with boiing engines.

I would still like to drop intercooler temps by 10 degrees, so its still work in progress.

So, I am not one of these people who sneers at those who try alternative engines, but I do know what is involved....... a lot of extra work, a lot of extra worry until your engine is proven, and lots of splintersin your fingers from head scratching when things go wrong.

OK....... reasons I would not consider a Deltahawk for an RV4. Its heavy with a heavy prop. Rv4's perform best when kept light. There is a lot less space to fit coolant and intercooler rads than in a 9 or 7, cooling is going to be your biggest problem. Cooling causes drag and loss of performance.

Probably 300 hours extra on your build time getting parts fabricated etc.

If Deltahawk were going to get behind the project and hep fund it I might consider one for a 9 or a 7, but not a 4.

Another point is the engine mount and more importantly the weldments that carry the engine mount loads into the longerons. If you search the forums you will see that lots of 4's have suffered damage on the loger longerons with much lighter engines than the Deltahawk. All these would need to be beefed up to carry the extra loads espesially for aeros, and gust load conditions.

Beefed up means moreweight....... less performance.

Personally I would not go there.
 
Alternative or Lycoming

My suggestion is if you want to build and be happy from the start, install a Lycoming or clone, if you want to have regrets and then have to buy the second engine (Lycoming) to be able to use your -4, go with your alternative diesel.

JT
 
Another engine then?

I would still like to go with a diesel engine. The way I see it AV gas will slowly go away and get much more expensive by the time I am ready for my first flight. I think that a diesel engine would have a better future with more fuels to choose from. Thielert is supposed to produce a 160 hp engine, but I have been unable to get even the most basic information on this engine. I don't know its dimensions, weight, cost or TBO.

Is there anyone else out there who is working on a aviation diesel engine or who has a decent automotive diesel engine conversion? I would appreciate any ideas.
 
My 2 bits

Your thoughts, wishes, hopes or DREAMS for the Delta are valid, however the engine is NOT ready for market. The #3 guy, (Doug Doer and his wife are #1 & 2) called me several times PROMISING they would have an engine ready for my 10,,, because he really wanted a Delta as a test in a 10.

Long story short, I've had engine start, ,, no Delta,, My 10 will be flying this month with a Locoming built by Barrett. I'm going to be running premium unleaded with no alcohol and 100LL when needed.

I've flown an average of 204 hrs for the past 3 yrs in my 7a and don't plan to change just because I'll be flying my 10 instead.

Regarding the Delta, IF and WHEN the engine is ready, the military and or government will purchase and contract with the first many years of production. Delta may never see our market place. My suggestion,, forget this idea and move forward, as I'll bet there will be no Delta's.

Kenny Gene
294TC RV7a 592 hrs
484TC RV10 finishing
 
Delta

It will be years before I even get to the engine stage. I hope by that time something relyable and reasonable priced will be on the market. I guess until then I will plan on a lycoming.

It was mentioned that there are some issues with the engine mount, should I construct a beefed up verson? I have the ability.

Do I need to construct the fuselage with thicker forward skins like a Rocket for the 0-360? If I am going with a lycoming I will most likely do an 0-320, but would like the option to upgrade if I change my mind. Will the 0-360 conversion to the firewall also accept an 0-320?
 
Aero Diesel

Wilksch are working on a big bore version of the wam120 which will put out about 140HP. As its lighter than a lycoming performance should be good.

The thing to do is get on with building the airframe but delete all the firewall forward from your order untill you are in a position to assess the market when you are ready for an engine. You will find that things will move on considerably in 4 or 5 years. Then you can buy the latest version of whatever you decide to go for.

The only problem this will cause you is the main landing gear which you cant fit anyway till you have an engine mount. Also if for any reason you dont complete you will find it easier to sell on.
 
Wam120

I was not able to find the wam by doing a basic search for aircraft diesel engines online. Once I had the engine name I was able to find info about it. That kinda makes me wonder what else is out there that I don't know about.

Upon reading about the engine further it started to ring a few bells. I used to fly with a pilot in the UK who had mentioned something about working on a new design for an aircraft engine. He left me with the impression that the final product was a ways off but I guess that was a few years ago. I think I should give him a call and see if this is what he working on.
 
The "other fuel"

Ed,

My first questions to you (or myself) are:
Have you built a stock RV4 or any RV before?
How many DH or any other Diesel powered RV's have you seen?
What is their track record and will I be able to get parts?

Building an RV-4 is a large enough task without adding a non-standard engine installation to the equation. Mine took me nearly 10 years to finish while moving from overseas, raising a family and serving in the military. So if you're going to build a 4, which already isn't the easiest to build. Why not build an alternate fuel airplane instead? With 100LL prices and availability in question, why not?

I operated my RV4 for 10 years primarily on Auto fuel. Adapting a Lycoming to run auto fuel is much easier than building a diesel. The RV4 plans even show how to run a return line to the main tanks to avoid vapor lock. I never had any problems running Mo-Gas and still run a mix in my HR2 occasionally. I am able to get non Ethanol enriched fuel. However, there are several experimenters out there running pure Ethanol, another option. The Vanguard Squadron flies their RV3's in airshows on nothing but pure ethanol. You could also go with a Mazda Rotary which burns Mo-Gas, provides good performance for low cost but again, isn't "standard". I always encourage "out of the box" thinking, but diesels in my humble opinion aren't ready for the RV-4, yet.

Since you haven't started drilling holes yet or even purchased your first sheet of metal, here's my dos centavos. Go with the original design Van penned back in 1978. Keep it simple, light and Lycoming.

Smokey
HR2

http://www.ethanolairshows.com/Default.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=511oGYZADak
 
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Deltahawk Mount

It's been several years since my EAA Chapter visited the Deltahawk facility at Racine, WI, but at the time Deltahawk said they would not provide a Firewall Forward package or engine mount, that was up to the builder. At the time the engine, in the general shape of an automotive "V", was a bed mount, and would not fit a Van's engine mount (conical or dynafocal). This upright "V" put the crank shaft below the cylinders, which might work for a pusher airplane, where you don't have to see over the top of the engine, as in a tractor configuration. They were going to produce an "Inverted V" for tractor airplanes, but I could not envision how a bed mount engine would work upside down, suspended from the mount. Since I was planning an RV-7A, the nosegear would also have to figure into the odd engine mount issue.
 
I have to side with the majority here. The DH isn't ready, and probably never will be. Also, in one of your above posts you asked a number of technical questions on constructions and said, "I have the ability." You will need not only the building ability, but the ability to answer questions such as you asked, if you tackle a new installation. Most of the successful innovators were successful builders first. Get a project under your belt or you may never get a plane in the air. Not trying to be excessively negative, but I hate to see someone with your determination get in over their head. Building a "normal" RV will give you the skills to contemplate what you seek, and the time to consider all the pluses and minuses. Good luck, and get into a build!

Bob Kelly
 
That is an excellent point and I have asked all these questions as I value other people's opinions and would rather learn from their mistakes. It saves a lot of time and frustration down the road. Ask 6 people get 6 answers and see which one you agree with most!

As far as projects go this is my first metal bird. In the past I have worked primarily with wood and some steel tube. While I have performed sheetmetal work when working in an aircraft shop, a complete construction will with out a doubt have a learning curve to go with it. Luckily I have a friend who is a sheet metal expert and has offered to hold my hand through the project.

I appreciate everyone's insites and thank those of you who take the time to reply to posts such as mine.
 
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