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Keith Rush

Member
I wanted to ask if the RV3 can be registered as an LSA? Also, has anyone ever used the Rotax 912 in one or seen it?

Thanks,
Keith
 
There are only 3 ways to register an aircraft as LSA.

1/ SLSA, factory built.
2/ ELSA, built from certified ELSA kit.
3/ Recertification from SLSA to ELSA.

The RV-3 does not meet this criteria.

If you are asking if the RV-3 can be flown by a sport pilot, you would be responsible for proving it meets LSA parameters. "A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level." would be the most difficult to prove.
 
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Couldn't you just put a red line and say "not to exceed 120"? Seems that any airplane could exceed 120 some creative flying.
 
Mel;1015373 [I said:
Maximum[/I] cruise speed of 120 kts. would be the most difficult to prove.
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Mel,

Not to dispute the resident expert, but here's what the regulation states:

(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.

No mention of any "cruise" speed. The question is exactly what is max continuous power and who determines it?

The tougher nut to crack would be the 45 kt clean stall speed.

Tony
 
Sorry, I didn't realize that I had to quote the reg exactly.

You are, of course, correct. I fixed it.

The engine manufacturer determines "maximum continuous power".
 
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Xkuzme1 said:
Couldn't you just put a red line and say "not to exceed 120"? Seems that any airplane could exceed 120 some creative flying.
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Nope! Just like you could not get a twin and placard the panel to use only one engine.
 
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I really don't understand you guys that want to push the LSA rules. If you want an LSA, find one that meets the regs. They're actually pretty clear.
 
I don't think we actually are wanting to "push the LSA rules" Mel, just fun playing like a shyster lawyer thinking about loopholes! Jabiru simply put another data plate on their 6 cyl engine, limiting maximum continuous rpm, so Sonex can have their 170 mph cruise.
If I put my own engine together, I can make that max cont rpm anything I want, even though it is IO540 fire breather. In my case, Viking nor Honda does not specify a maximum continuous rpm so I will make up my own. I can also put on an electrically controlled pitch propellor - as long as I put the control switch out on the cowling someplace.
So much fun to dream..
 
No. Not trying to push any LSA limits at all. I'm just starting on my sport's license and full scale experience. There is so much to read and learn, which makes it very exciting. I was looking at the weight of the RV3 as compared to the 12, but forgot about the speed restrictions for LSA and that it needs to be designed as LSA. Just trying to learn from everyone here so I appreciate the responses. Probably shouldn't be looking at planes at 2 am.lol..

I will ask about the engine choice. Would a Rotax 912 or the new 914 turbo be an optional choice instead of the O-200?

Like I said, I'm just information hunting. I have no one close by that Flys an RV to talk planes with.

Thanks,


Keith
 
Honestly I think the Rotax would present a weight & balance problem. It's really light for an aircraft designed for a Lycoming.
 
Mel,

Would you be available to chat a few minutes about your 6? My number is 757-362-7120. Look forward to talking with you.

Thank you,

Keith Rush
 
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Not only that, even for Lycomings, the RV-3 plans are nearly nonexistent. You'd be surprised at the primitive level of the kit compared to some of the other RVs. There's no FWF kit for example, regardless of engine.

You'd be entirely on your own.

Dave
You can read about mine here.
 
The RV-12 was designed around the 912ULS. Other engines have been made to fit, but the modifications required are not trivial and at the end of the day, you still have to meet the LSA performance parameters to be legal. If you put 125hp or 140hp in an airplane that has the structural strength to take only 100hp, you become both aircraft designer and builder, and very few kit-builders are qualified to be both. While it's always fun to play around with ideas, a stock RV-12 is as good a performing LSA as you'll find anywhere.
 
RV3bpilot said:
I have a weak motor and my 3 is very fast.... Way past the LSA rules..
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Robin,

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but there's not a good football game on right now.

The speed limit on any aircraft, LSA compliant or otherwise, is the Vne.

The speed under a specified set of conditions isn't a speed limit.

What's the maximum continuous power on your Corvair?

Tony
 
If you were the builder, you could put a restriction that says,

"Full power to only be used on take off and landing, else RPMs limited to 1800".

There. LSA rules complied with. My -4 stalls at about 45. Couldn't be that hard to get a -3 to comply.
 
Carbon Cub:

"180 Horsepower for takeoff and climb up to 5 minutes - 80 Horsepower for continuous operation. It is the pilots responsibility to operate the aircraft in accordance with the pilot operating handbook and aircraft placarding. There is NO governor or limiting system that controls the engines power settings."

http://www.cubcrafters.com/carboncubss/specs

Tony
 
Xkuzme1 said:
If you were the builder, you could put a restriction that says,

"Full power to only be used on take off and landing, else RPMs limited to 1800".

There. LSA rules complied with. My -4 stalls at about 45. Couldn't be that hard to get a -3 to comply.
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Sport Pilot requirements state that the airplane must stall at 45 Kts (or less) at gross weight with no lift enhancing devices (flaps, leading edge slats, helium in tires, etc). The airplane can have those devices installed, but they can't be employed when testing to meet the requirement.

I say Sport Pilot requirements to clarify the OP's original question.....
It is not necessary to certify an aircraft as LSA for a Sport Pilot to be able to fly it. You just need to demonstrate that it meets all of the requirements of a light sport aircraft (gross weight limit, gross weight stall speed, max continuous power speed, etc.). That is how a Sport Pilot can fly a Champ, J3, etc.

So, if an RV-3 could be built to meet the requirements, it could be certified E-AB like all the other RV's and someone operating as a sport pilot could fly it.

I think it might be possible to make an RV-3 comply, but I am not sure it would be practical. You would have to use a lighter engine to help reduce empty weight (and the resultant lower gross weight that you could stipulate) to assure meeting the stall speed requirement. The smaller engine and choice of propeller pitch would help with the max speed requirement.
In the end, you would have an airplane easily as expensive (plus an even more complex build) as building a standard RV-3 (because of limited engine choices), but that didn't perform anything like one.
 
Tony Spicer said:
Carbon Cub:

"180 Horsepower for takeoff and climb up to 5 minutes - 80 Horsepower for continuous operation. It is the pilots responsibility to operate the aircraft in accordance with the pilot operating handbook and aircraft placarding. There is NO governor or limiting system that controls the engines power settings."

http://www.cubcrafters.com/carboncubss/specs

Tony
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Yea, and I keep wondering if one of these days the FAA is going to quit looking the other way, just because an aircraft meets the letter of the law but not necessarily the spirit of it....

Though I guess I shouldn't be so cynical.... I guess it is entirely possible that every Lyc powered Carbon Cub has been operated fully within the Light Sport requirements for its entire operational life:rolleyes:
That is a very important detail, because if at any time, the airplane has been operated outside of the Light Sport requirements, it no longer qualifys for a Sport Pilot. So, assuming everyone has played by the rules and only people legal to fly as private pilot or higher have flown a particular airplane faster than allowed, it can no longer be flown by a Sport Pilot.

This is where people will say, "yea, but how would the FAA ever know?"
You would be right. And that is why I say that currently they have to look the other way... A day may come that they choose not to do so anymore...
 
Check out the Panther if you're looking for an RV-3-like light sport. It comes in an LSA version and is a more advanced kit.

See it here.

It looks like a fast-back RV-3 and it's pre-punched.

Dave
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
That is a very important detail, because if at any time, the airplane has been operated outside of the Light Sport requirements, it no longer qualifys for a Sport Pilot.
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I'm curious, but where do you get that impression? I understood that if the airplane has ever been certified at limits outside those of LSA, it could not be LSA ever again. An example is the Champ with the heavy duty landing gear. With the heavy duty gear installed you COULD up the gross weight to something like 1500 pounds, but it was not required. At a later date you could drop the certified gross weight back to 1300 or so, but if it had EVER been certified for 1500 it can never qualify for LSA again. So you could have two identical aircraft with identical history and all the same parts... one LSA qualified and one not, the only difference being a single logbook entry.

But I have never seen or heard of a rule saying that if (for example) you ever exceeded 120 knots at sea level in an RV-12, it was no longer legal as an LSA.
 
LSA

I own an lsa, s-lsa (factory built) to be specific.
Arion Lightning.
They had to slow the aircraft down to make it to stall at the lsa requirements. to do so they extended the wings for more surface area.
Also the vna is 180 knots
the poh says I can run the engine for 15 mins at full throttle which will send me above the 120 knot limit. I was told they had to dirty the flaps a little to keep it from going too fast.
the rule says to cruise at 120 at sea level. 3/4 throttle will give me 120 airspeed. Ground speed is a different story altogether as we know.

Your light sport can be any horsepower you wish. but to comply with the stall,120 knot cruise and weight issues is another thing.

Good luck on what you decide.
 
DaleB said:
I'm curious, but where do you get that impression? I understood that if the airplane has ever been certified at limits outside those of LSA, it could not be LSA ever again. An example is the Champ with the heavy duty landing gear. With the heavy duty gear installed you COULD up the gross weight to something like 1500 pounds, but it was not required. At a later date you could drop the certified gross weight back to 1300 or so, but if it had EVER been certified for 1500 it can never qualify for LSA again. So you could have two identical aircraft with identical history and all the same parts... one LSA qualified and one not, the only difference being a single logbook entry.

But I have never seen or heard of a rule saying that if (for example) you ever exceeded 120 knots at sea level in an RV-12, it was no longer legal as an LSA.
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The FAR's say nothing about whether an aircraft was recertified outside of the LSA rule perameters.

It states - Has continued to meet the following
Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than?

(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or

(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.

I admit it is a grey/fuzzy area... it ends up coming down to what the FAA's legal interpretation is of "continued to meet". I know of at least one FAA airworthiness person who reads it as I described.
 
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