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Steve Brown

Well Known Member
I know the kits are not pre-approved 51%, but is anyone who is building hoping to get E-AB approval?

I've asked this question before, but its not the kind of question with a permanent answer.


 
Steve, Actually it's been done. Van's RV-12 IS amateur-built. Of course like all amateur-built aircraft, it's up to you to show that the major portion of the aircraft is amateur-built, there should be no reason for the RV-12 to not qualify as long as you don't obtain any commercial assistance.
Keep in mind that the kit is very close to the limit, so any commercial assistance might tip the scales in the wrong direction.
BTW, the RV-12 kit is being evaluated for FAAs "approved kit list".
 
E-AB certification for RV12

I understand from the introduction of the RV12 that it is now E-AB certified for US.

Does anyone know if VANs is seeking E-AB for Canada ? I called the local MD-RA rep who told me that the RA-12 is currently not listed as an E-AB in Canada.

Until it has recieved the Canadian E-AB I need to buy the entire kit and pay $400 for one time Canadian Certification.

Any help will be much appreciated...I am also told that there are 2 RV-12's under construction in Canada.
 
BABA said:
I understand from the introduction of the RV12 that it is now E-AB certified for US.

Does anyone know if VANs is seeking E-AB for Canada ? I called the local MD-RA rep who told me that the RA-12 is currently not listed as an E-AB in Canada.

Until it has recieved the Canadian E-AB I need to buy the entire kit and pay $400 for one time Canadian Certification.

Any help will be much appreciated...I am also told that there are 2 RV-12's under construction in Canada.[mean that the RV-12 is on then
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If you mean that the RV-12 is on the E-AB approved kit list in the U.S., no it is not. The process is now underway to have it evaluated, but at this time it is not on the list. Anyone currently seeking E-AB certification in the U.S. has to have it evaluated by the person doing the certification.

My understanding is that if it receives approval, that transport Canada accepts that approval. As far as I am aware, all of the other models are allowed to be built in Canada because they are on the U.S. list...and they haven't undergone any type of evaluation by transport Canada.
 
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Saw one at Oshkosh

If I remember correctly I saw one parked at Oshkosh that was registered as E-AB. They went a different route on the electronics in the panel. It was parked close to the forum buildings down from the nice 12 that made the recent Sport Aviation issue. So someone other than Vans has one registered in the US that way.

Maybe that person is on this forum and will chime in.
 
Ahhh so that's what VAN's mean by the following statement

"The RV-12 is designed to be licensed as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA). Currently RV-12s in the USA have been licensed in both E-LSA and Experimental Amateur-Built (E-AB) categories."

That the builder took the responsibility to to get E-AB certification.
 
I'm still at a loss as to why anyone would prefer EAB over ELSA on the 12. Unless you just can't tolerate the panel set-up but then I'm curious what you would change it to: IFR avionics are not practical, a 696 is just overkill. You would not want to change the engine. Any other cosmetics can be changed after the fly-off (a 5 hour possibility vs 40 for sure). The prop is state of the art. Matco brakes are better than Grove. Van's Aircraft is on the data plate. No other single manufacturer of SLSA's has the nerve (or foresight?) to go this route. I think Van's took the leap because they are true marketers in every sense of the word. Over 400 shipped in 2 years, over 50 flying already. How long before there are more ELSA 12's flying than any other Light Sport aircraft? At this rate, pretty darn quick. And lets see...at $60,000 a pop....
 
Peterk said:
I'm still at a loss as to why anyone would prefer EAB over ELSA on the 12.
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I've had several requests for amateur-built RV-12s. One of the primary reasons listed is that the builder already has or has access to an engine. This can be a big savings.
Others want to use flush rivets. Some want to change the fuel system set-up.
And most want to change the panel completely.
 
My reason for EAB (instead of SLA) is that I live in Canada, where there is no SLA certification available.

I spoke to Scott today he said that the FAA has completed the inpection of RV12 for EAB but currently there is no ETA on when it will be listed.

Once its listed as an EAB in US, Canada will accept it as an EAB.

It may be 1 month, 6 months or even a year....
 
Mel said:
I've had several requests for amateur-built RV-12s. One of the primary reasons listed is that the builder already has or has access to an engine. This can be a big savings.
Others want to use flush rivets.

Mel

Do you know what Flush rivet and the angle of the countersink they are using and what grip range ?
Do I use a 100° or a120° Dimple Die to Make the Countersink ?
I think I would like to do this if I can find the right rivets.

Joe Dallas
www.joerv12.com
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BABA said:
My reason for EAB (instead of SLA) is that I live in Canada, where there is no SLA certification available.

I spoke to Scott today he said that the FAA has completed the inpection of RV12 for EAB but currently there is no ETA on when it will be listed.

Once its listed as an EAB in US, Canada will accept it as an EAB.

It may be 1 month, 6 months or even a year....
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What happens if you build one in the U.S. as an EAB or ELSA and then take it to Canada?
 
Peterk said:
remember you are countersinking 020 aluminum...not what's used in the other RV's.
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Or dimpling. The RV tail skins used to be .020, and they and the underlying stiffeners were dimpled, so it seems to be within the envelope of established RV practice.
 
joedallas said:
Mel
Do you know what Flush rivet and the angle of the countersink they are using and what grip range ?
I think I would like to do this if I can find the right rivets.
Joe Dallas
www.joerv12.com
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I built a Zodiac CH601-HDS and used solid AD rivets where I could. Where I couldn't, I used Avex 1604.

I also built a Moni Motorglider using CCC-42.

Most all pulled countersunk rivets have a 120* head, whereas a solid AD rivet will have a 100* head.
 
Bob Kuykendall said:
Or dimpling. The RV tail skins used to be .020, and they and the underlying stiffeners were dimpled, so it seems to be within the envelope of established RV practice.
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Just to be clear, the early elevator and rudder skins were .016. The later ones went to .020.

Dimple-countersinking should always be the default method unless the skin is too thick.
 
Mel said:
I built a Zodiac CH601-HDS and used solid AD rivets where I could. Where I couldn't, I used Avex 1604.

I also built a Moni Motorglider using CCC-42.

Most all pulled countersunk rivets have a 120* head, whereas a solid AD rivet will have a 100* head.
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Mel the Avex 1604 has a minimum grip length of .090
The skin and rib mike about .042 is there an acceptable blind rivet for this application and if so where can I buy them.
Thanks
Joe Dallas
www.joerv12.com
 
I guess I miss-remembered the Avex number. Since Zenair supplied the rivets with the kit, I just used what came with it.
The interesting thing about the CH601 kit is that they gave you countersunk rivets, then had you modify the rivet puller head to reform the rivet head to "round". Go figure!
 
Pros and Cons

Is there someplace a list of the pros and cons of ELSA vs EAB? I am contemplating building an RV12, and would like to make a more informed decision on that point. I am PP, SEL licensed with no medical, and am a licensed A&P for what that is worth in making the decision.
 
DonFromTX said:
Is there someplace a list of the pros and cons of ELSA vs EAB? I am contemplating building an RV12, and would like to make a more informed decision on that point. I am PP, SEL licensed with no medical, and am a licensed A&P for what that is worth in making the decision.
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No takers? Hm, well, then let me start one.

E-AB
- expect 40 hrs of Phase 1
- not required to perform PAP tests
- only you as the builder or an A&P can do the annual inspection and sign it off (interesting for the buyer of you're plane if you sell at some point)
- more burden to prove you built it (thorough documentation)
- must comply with 51% rule
- the big pro: you can do what you want!

ELSA
- expect 5 hrs of Phase 1
- required to complete PAP tests
- Anybody with a Light Sport Repairman Certificate can do the annual inspection and sign it off. This certifcate can be obtained in a 16 hour course.
- no builder log required for ELSA certification
- no 51% rule applies. The plane could have even been completely commercially built.
- the big con: must stick to every detail of the plans, no modifications, no deviations
- after the plane has been certified changes to the plane are allowed, just like any other Experimental.

That's what I recollect at this time.
 
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Thanks very much, that is exactly what I was looking for, others please add if you can.
Perhaps not said, an A&P can also do the condition inspection on an ELSA, right?
 
I will register as EAB....

There are lots of small things I want to be able to do differently such as decide what avionics suit me best, Possibly add about 5 gallons to the tank or build a ferry tank, maybe remove the wing pin warning system to simplify things, use solid rivets on the spars and most of the internal structure, plus when its all done either I as the builder can annual it or any A&P.
I dont see how just anyone can attend the 2 week school then claim to have the skills and knowledge to annual a LSA they may not have ever seen before. When it takes years of practical experience and training to be an A&P it just doesnt seem right. Can you flunk the LSA class?
Oh and when its finished and we start the fun process of making it faster, slower or inevitably heavier there will not be a chance of losing the airworthiness by exceeding the criteria.
 
DonFromTX said:
Thanks very much, that is exactly what I was looking for, others please add if you can.
Perhaps not said, an A&P can also do the condition inspection on an ELSA, right?
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Oh sure you can. And you as the builder are always going to be fine, even if you wouldn't be an A&P.
The difference is to the potential buyer. ELSA is better than E-AB as it allows for an easy way to be able to do your own condition inspection. E-AB requires an A&P if not the original builder.
 
MacPara said:
Oh sure you can. And you as the builder are always going to be fine, even if you wouldn't be an A&P.
The difference is to the potential buyer. ELSA is better than E-AB as it allows for an easy way to be able to do your own condition inspection. E-AB requires an A&P if not the original builder.
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So what's the big deal about having an A&P do the inspection? Is it the cost factor or the inconvenience, or the possibility that they are going to find something they think needs repair or changing. Just trying to understand why the aversion to having an A&P do this.
 
Rick,

Actually, it's 3 weeks to get the LSRM-A but your point is well taken. I got mine to do work on my S-LSA. I really don't want to hang out a shingle for the very reasons you state. As for flunking the class, I've seen remedial training given to get people through but haven't heard of anyone flunking although I'm sure some have.
 
DonFromTX said:
From experience, can anyone say how the selling price is affected by one way or the other?
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I Think the Selling Cost will hinge on the Quality of the build and the changes made.
I will build E-AB LSA and stay in the framework of the LSA requirements
I used flush rivets on the V- Stab and Rudder and it came out fine.

One type of buyer will pay less
One type of buyer will pay more


Building what I want is the Key
 
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MacPara said:
- Anybody with a Light Sport Repairman Certificate can do the annual inspection and sign it off. This certifcate can be obtained in a 16 hour course.
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Light-Sport Repairman/Inspection Certificate only allows one to sign off the condition inspection for an LSA that he owns and is listed on his certificate.
 
diamond said:
So what's the big deal about having an A&P do the inspection? Is it the cost factor or the inconvenience, or the possibility that they are going to find something they think needs repair or changing. Just trying to understand why the aversion to having an A&P do this.
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A lot (the majority that I know) of A&P's will not sign off condition inspections on experimental category aircraft because of the liability.
By definition, the experimental category allows most anyone to do whatever level of repairs or modification to the airplane during the year between condition inspections.
There is no level of experience or certification required for this work. It is not uncommon for people to do work on an experimental category aircraft and not document it in the log books. This leaves the A&P as possibly the last written entry prior to a mishap or worse. Many feel it is not worth the liability.
Don't get me wrong, there are good A&P's out there that will do this work. I used too, but decided it wasn't worth the liability.

The main point is that finding a good A&P to do a condition inspection on an experimental is not always as simple as picking up the yellow pages.

The other reason is cost. One of the benefits to experimental category aircraft is getting away from being tied to a shop or independent mechanic for every little thing. An RV-12 built as an E-LSA has the exact same level of benefits for future owners in this regard, as it does for the original builder.
 
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MacPara said:
E-AB

- only you as the builder or an A&P can do the annual inspection and sign it off (interesting for the buyer of you're plane if you sell at some point)
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Interesting in what regard? Is the buyer of a E-AB then forced to find a A&P to do the inspection?
 
to EAB or not to EAB

rvbuilder2002 said:
Yes. The only person that can do it is the holder of a repairmans cert. (only the builder can get that) or an A&P.
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YES and that?s the way it should be. If you don?t build the aircraft and have a good understanding of all the construction you should have an A&P perform all required work. Your passengers need this protection from the weekend mechanic. This is the way it is for all Aircraft that is purchased.
How many people fix there Lexus or Porsches, and they don?t Fly.
If they can afford a $100,000 plus aircraft they can afford a good A&P.
 
joedallas said:
YES and that’s the way it should be. If you don’t build the aircraft and have a good understanding of all the construction you should have an A&P perform all required work. Your passengers need this protection from the weekend mechanic. This is the way it is for all Aircraft that is purchased.
How many people fix there Lexus or Porsches, and they don’t Fly.
If they can afford a $100,000 plus aircraft they can afford a good A&P.
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I can't argue with this, but if it is indeed as hard to find an A&P willing to do the inspection, as rvbuilder stated earlier, than I would think the answer to an earlier inquiry about resale value of a E-LSA vs E-AB swings strongly in favor of the E-LSA for this very reason. E-ABs are bought and sold all the time. Are you telling me those buyers are having to jump through hoops to find A&Ps willing to do inspections?
 
E-AB for me

diamond said:
I can't argue with this, but if it is indeed as hard to find an A&P willing to do the inspection, as rvbuilder stated earlier, than I would think the answer to an earlier inquiry about resale value of a E-LSA vs E-AB swings strongly in favor of the E-LSA for this very reason. E-ABs are bought and sold all the time. Are you telling me those buyers are having to jump through hoops to find A&Ps willing to do inspections?
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I would think if you have a good A&P do most of the work all year, that all aircraft owners do, you will have no problem finding a good A&P.
To do just the inspection will be a little harder.

Stop worrying abut resale.
Built the Airplane you want.
You will find a Buyer who doesn’t want to do his own work.
Or an A&P who lost there medical.
 
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I guess it's different in different parts of the country, but around here there are many experimental aircraft owned by non-builders and I don't know of any that have a difficult time getting maintenance and/or annual condition inspections done.
 
diamond said:
So what's the big deal about having an A&P do the inspection? Is it the cost factor or the inconvenience, or the possibility that they are going to find something they think needs repair or changing. Just trying to understand why the aversion to having an A&P do this.
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To me it's a cost thing as well as an inconvenience. Inspecting my RANS S-12S costs $250 and that's only because I have an A&P at the field who's willing to do it. BY now I know the plane inside out but I can never get around the A&P requirement, so I either have to get the certification myself or just spend the money.
YMMV.
 
Thanks for the help guys, I think at the present I will pursue one as an ELSA for simplication reasons and perhaps more favorable future changes to the programs.
 
E-LSA annual inspection by new owner

A new owner (with a repairman certificate) of a purchased E-LSA, who does not feel comfortable doing the annual inspection himself, can ask for help from an A&P. Even A&Ps who refuse to do annual inspections on experimental aircraft might be willing to look over the shoulder of the repairman and offer advice during the annual. Since the A&P does not sign anything (the repairman does), there is much less liability.
Joe
 
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