L

Lepley

Member
I am a 76-year-old retired Aerospace engineer struggling with a decision to build a std RV-10. Thought about the -14 but wife didn’t like getting into it. Over the years, I have done lots of woodworking and home building projects but no metal work. I am in the Washington DC area plan to link up with EAA 186 (Manassas, Va). Been flying all my life as a CFII and Navy pilot. Any advice/thoughts?
Larry
 
Lepley said:
...Over the years, I have done lots of woodworking and home building projects but no metal work....Any advice/thoughts?
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Welcome to the forum Larry!

I'm a new RV-14 builder. I've never worked with metal before and I've found working with aluminum very easy. If you're looking for something to do in retirement to keep you busy, building an airplane is a great project! If you want to fly an airplane sooner rather than later, I'd buy a flying airplane rather than build.
 
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Here is a fairly recent post on time to complete a -10. It will take longer if you don’t have workspace at home.

Time to build an RV10

I was told by a RV owner last week, while filling up my 172 (Flying Club) This is the best place to get a realistic estimate on time to build an RV 10. Next year I’ll be retiring from my airline job, and lots of time on my hands. Any good estimates . Quick Build kit. Thanks
vansairforce.net vansairforce.net
 
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Larry, welcome aboard the good ship VAF :D

The 10 is a wonderful bird, but the sad truth is it takes a long time to build, and at our age insurance becomes a concern-----I suggest you look into insurance now.
 
Larry,

Drive over to Dogwood (VA42) in Fredericksburg VA. You can go over my almost done RV-10 slow build. My neighbor across the street is just finishing the wings on his RV-14 project.

Send me a PM on contact information.
Carl
 
Mike S said:
Larry, welcome aboard the good ship VAF :D

The 10 is a wonderful bird, but the sad truth is it takes a long time to build, and at our age insurance becomes a concern-----I suggest you look into insurance now.
Lepley said:
I am a 76-year-old retired Aerospace engineer struggling with a decision to build a std RV-10. Thought about the -14 but wife didn’t like getting into it. Over the years, I have done lots of woodworking and home building projects but no metal work. I am in the Washington DC area plan to link up with EAA 186 (Manassas, Va). Been flying all my life as a CFII and Navy pilot. Any advice/thoughts?
Larry
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People will tell you it can be built in two years; that is NOT typical. I would plan on 3-5+ years, NOT including lead times on kits, engines, or avionics.

That said, the insurance issue is a valid concern. I tried to get my dad added as a listed pilot on my ten when he was 79 but only two companies would even quote. The quotes were VERY cost prohibitive, one on the order of $16k. He flies the airplane under an open pilot clause. Experience doesn’t matter, he has around 50,000 hours, is an active instructor, and a Wright Brothers Award recipient. None of it mattered, only his age.
 
Mike S said:
Larry, welcome aboard the good ship VAF :D

The 10 is a wonderful bird, but the sad truth is it takes a long time to build, and at our age insurance becomes a concern-----I suggest you look into insurance now.
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I agree Mike. I have been doing some checking and others my age are getting insured but that could change.
 
rocketman1988 said:
People will tell you it can be built in two years; that is NOT typical. I would plan on 3-5+ years, NOT including lead times on kits, engines, or avionics.

That said, the insurance issue is a valid concern. I tried to get my dad added as a listed pilot on my ten when he was 79 but only two companies would even quote. The quotes were VERY cost prohibitive, one on the order of $16k. He flies the airplane under an open pilot clause. Experience doesn’t matter, he has around 50,000 hours, is an active instructor, and a Wright Brothers Award recipient. None of it mattered, only his age.
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I am finding something similar however my inst student has -9 and has been able to get it insured at a reasonable cost.
 
Lepley said:
I am finding something similar however my inst student has -9 and has been able to get it insured at a reasonable cost.
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I highly recommend talking with a broker that is familiar with RVs. You are comparing apples and oranges

the Rv-10 is a high performance four passenger aircraft. Insurance underwriters treat them differently than the two seat models. Those extra two seats seems to generate more risk to them.

also, assume that we are the same age. I’ve been flying a Rv-10 for more than ten years. You are going to make your first Rv-10 flight when you start phase I. Underwriters are going to treat us differently. You may even have more flight experience than me. Your premiums are going to be higher than mine. Because I’ve had a policy on my Rv-10 for over a decade and am a known risk to them, the age related risk premiums upticks may take longer for me to see them. But as a new client with a high performance aircraft and four seats you’ll see higher premiums out of the gate.

reach out to the company sponsoring the rv beer event at OSH. I’m sure that they will be more than happy to discuss your situation and how your age may impact the premium. As we get older, we almost have golden handcuffs when it comes to insurance. Our current underwriters will continue to provide a policy as we age, but jumping ship to another underwriter may cause sticker shock when you see their premiums.
 
rleffler said:
I highly recommend talking with a broker that is familiar with RVs. You are comparing apples and oranges

the Rv-10 is a high performance four passenger aircraft. Insurance underwriters treat them differently than the two seat models. Those extra two seats seems to generate more risk to them.

also, assume that we are the same age. I’ve been flying a Rv-10 for more than ten years. You are going to make your first Rv-10 flight when you start phase I. Underwriters are going to treat us differently. You may even have more flight experience than me. Your premiums are going to be higher than mine. Because I’ve had a policy on my Rv-10 for over a decade and am a known risk to them, the age related risk premiums upticks may take longer for me to see them. But as a new client with a high performance aircraft and four seats you’ll see higher premiums out of the gate.

reach out to the company sponsoring the rv beer event at OSH. I’m sure that they will be more than happy to discuss your situation and how your age may impact the premium. As we get older, we almost have golden handcuffs when it comes to insurance. Our current underwriters will continue to provide a policy as we age, but jumping ship to another underwriter may cause sticker shock when you see their premiums.
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Thanks Bob. I agree that despite 6000 hrs and CFII, etc. A new underwriter and new plane will result in higher rates. This has factored into my decision. I really wanted to do a -14 but wife had problems getting in to it and fell in love the -10. I may try to reopen that decision WRT the -14. Perhaps I will post a question to see if people have found better ways to get into the 2 place VANS.

Regards,
Larry E
 
Insurance is a consideration that has been discussed at length all over this forum.

The tone of the OP's question seemed more about build complexity/ difficulty. I think bertschb's comment is right there. You should have no problem building an RV-10 (well as long as you take off you engineer hat and put on you construction worker hat hahaha). Mikeyb and Mike s gave good info on build time which is another big consideration. If your finances allow I wonder if that could be helped by shopping for partly completed kits and maybe a builder assist program.

It seems to me you should get shopping and get building. You can't take it with you and your kids don't need the money. ;)
 
Thanks. My question did indeed ask about the realities if building but in parallel i was concerned about insurance. I may revisit my original goal of doin g a -14.
R/Larry
 
Carl Froehlich said:
Larry,

Drive over to Dogwood (VA42) in Fredericksburg VA. You can go over my almost done RV-10 slow build. My neighbor across the street is just finishing the wings on his RV-14 project.

Send me a PM on contact information.
Carl
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The folks at dogwood hosted me, I'd take them up on that visit. I think there is a finished RV or two there also. I forget who my host was, but he was very gracious.
 
It doesn't matter if you finish it or not. You will learn so much fun stuff as you build (OK, and some stuff not so fun) that just spending your time doing it is well worth it. People who just sign checks and buy these airplanes without having built one have missed out on most of what it's about.
 
71459 said:
It doesn't matter if you finish it or not. You will learn so much fun stuff as you build (OK, and some stuff not so fun) that just spending your time doing it is well worth it. People who just sign checks and buy these airplanes without having built one have missed out on most of what it's about.
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+1. I loved the build experience. If you lose your medical, can't get insurance, etc., there’s always a market for these planes. Consider your own finances and risk tolerance: Do you need hull insurance?
 
BennyC said:
Is it really that long or only for the TB?
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I'm sorry. Yes, that is for Thunderbolt engines. According to the Van's website today, it's 18 months for non-Thunderbolt. I will edit my post above. Thanks for pointing it out.
 
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In case you decide to buy a project, here is one that was just posted.

Full RV-10 Kit partially completed, on its gears + Hartzell 3 blade prop.

$5k price drop, my loss is your gain. Motivated to sell this. Asking for QB kit (everything included): 125k Asking for prop new in box, with spinner: 23k (This is 26.6k now + shipping and tax depending on location). Take both for 145k ($3000 discount). Hi everyone, I’m looking to sell my full...
vansairforce.net vansairforce.net
 
I'm very happy I built mine. Also I was happy that I started it before retiring. I saw so many cases where the project isn't yet done when medical issues grounded folks and/or took up all their time. Be VERY honest with yourself on how many hours you can carve out in a week. I've seen projects languish because the owners really thought they'd have the time... but family commitments come first (as they should). My quickbuild took 4.25 years to complete ... but I was still working. The project slows down considerably once it out grows your garage and now you need to commute to/from the airport to get work done. You may see quotes of oh, 1000 hours to build or some such (I'm pulling that number completely out of the air). That low number will assume absolute minimum equipment, panel, interior, etc. Van's isn't going to roll in the time spent to put in redundant electricals, dual AHRS, IFR equipment, etc.... for obvious reasons. Also, whatever estimate you see will be *build* time, not homework ordering parts, researching, study plans, asking questions here, etc.
 
To answer if you should build: "sure, why not". That was the answer my wife gave. I'm 68, recovering from a back injury (good prognosis) and I'm not doing anything else. House is up and running, have a plane I can fly, ........ You have the background to learn how to build so ...

Sure why not!
 
Lepley said:
I am a 76-year-old retired Aerospace engineer struggling with a decision to build a std RV-10. Thought about the -14 but wife didn’t like getting into it. Over the years, I have done lots of woodworking and home building projects but no metal work. I am in the Washington DC area plan to link up with EAA 186 (Manassas, Va). Been flying all my life as a CFII and Navy pilot. Any advice/thoughts?
Larry
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A view that might be a bit contrary to others.

At your age (I am in you decade :) ) and with the wife wanting a 10, **DON"T TRY TO BUILD!!**

Go find one and BUY it. Get a basic one that you and your wife can build memories in NOW!

You can get all the experience you want in modifying/upgrading one that you buy that is "basic" with "good bones".

It will take far longer than most folks say or you imagine and you will have missed out on the wonderful trips you and your supportive wife could have taken in the meantime.

Now, on the other hand, if you just want the experience of building and don't care about when it is finished or about flying now, BUILD ON!
 
jclark said:
A view that might be a bit contrary to others.

At your age (I am in you decade :) ) and with the wife wanting a 10, **DON"T TRY TO BUILD!!**

Go find one and BUY it. Get a basic one that you and your wife can build memories in NOW!

You can get all the experience you want in modifying/upgrading one that you buy that is "basic" with "good bones".

It will take far longer than most folks say or you imagine and you will have missed out on the wonderful trips you and your supportive wife could have taken in the meantime.

Now, on the other hand, if you just want the experience of building and don't care about when it is finished or about flying now, BUILD ON!
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One other option ....

Find one that is VERY FAR ALONG by an amateur builder that is giving up on it. Take that and finish it to your tastes. Make sure it is something you feel can be finished in less than a year.
 
jclark said:
One other option ....

Find one that is VERY FAR ALONG by an amateur builder that is giving up on it. Take that and finish it to your tastes. Make sure it is something you feel can be finished in less than a year.
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Agree. I have been looking for obne. There is one in Florida but the seller hasnt replied to PM.
 
OK, this is heresy I know... but... maybe you need to look beyond the RV's?
Strong criteria is ease of entry/exit, and reasonable build time. As you've found, the 10 isn't the cheapest/easiest to build, and the rest aren't the easiest for everyone to get in/out of.
What else is on the list?
Tricycle only?
Preference on high / low wing?
Since you haven't done aircraft sheet metal... you could look beyond sheet metal planes.
 
blaplante said:
OK, this is heresy I know... but... maybe you need to look beyond the RV's?
Strong criteria is ease of entry/exit, and reasonable build time. As you've found, the 10 isn't the cheapest/easiest to build, and the rest aren't the easiest for everyone to get in/out of.
What else is on the list?
Tricycle only?
Preference on high / low wing?
Since you haven't done aircraft sheet metal... you could look beyond sheet metal planes.
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Probably one of the easiest aircraft for entry/exit is the Cessna 177 Cardinal (without struts).
 
@jclark is right on. Buy and enjoy or find one FAR along. I started a -10 at 57 and it takes a HUGE chunk of time out of your life. I'm 5 years in and it will fly this year. I Never dreamed it would take this long. Unexpected cancer took away the first year+ of build and if your wife isn't involved, you'll spend a whole lotta time alone working on it. I've been lucky to have a well lighted big hangar with air and heat to work year round. Can't imagine struggling through winters or summers without HVAC.

I actually like the build post doors, canopy, cowling 🙂. A year in I realized we weren't going to have the dream trips for a long long time so I purchased a 182 and we've enjoyed that but family, events, and life affect every build. It takes longer than you anticipate.

Enjoy your life. If the goal is to have a time machine with your family, not a shop where you spend all your time, buy and enjoy.
 
raabs said:
@jclark is right on. Buy and enjoy or find one FAR along. I started a -10 at 57 and it takes a HUGE chunk of time out of your life. I'm 5 years in and it will fly this year. I Never dreamed it would take this long. Unexpected cancer took away the first year+ of build and if your wife isn't involved, you'll spend a whole lotta time alone working on it. I've been lucky to have a well lighted big hangar with air and heat to work year round. Can't imagine struggling through winters or summers without HVAC.

I actually like the build post doors, canopy, cowling 🙂. A year in I realized we weren't going to have the dream trips for a long long time so I purchased a 182 and we've enjoyed that but family, events, and life affect every build. It takes longer than you anticipate.

Enjoy your life. If the goal is to have a time machine with your family, not a shop where you spend all your time, buy and enjoy.
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Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Spot on.
 
In terms of insurance. If the issue is four seats, why not make an RV-10 with two seats?
The engines in both planes is over 200HP, which is/was the high performance benchmark for insurance historically. Same for most of the performance specs of the planes. They are fairly close, the largest difference is the UL and number of seats.

Tim
 
tspear said:
In terms of insurance. If the issue is four seats, why not make an RV-10 with two seats?
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I suspect few DARs would buy that. Even if they did think of the pain to later go back for new operating limitations to reflect four seats.

The resale value would plummet.

Carl
 
I believe the insurance company will look at it as a four seater regardless of how many you put in. The hull value would still be the same.
 
I'm about your age and am building an RV-3B and am several years into the project. I am getting slower (even slower, I was never fast) and am working fewer hours. My interest remains strong enough but my day to day motivation is significantly reduced. It happens, and I think a lot of it is just age. I have a friend in his 40s who is building an RV-10 quick-build, and it's taking him a lot longer than he expected. He now has three children he didn't have when he started, a youngster and twins. In his case, my case and perhaps in yours, all for different reasons, life plays havoc with airplane projects. And that's more likely as you age.

So I echo the recommendations for ways to speed things up: a nearly complete project or a completed and flying airplane or a completely different but flying airplane.

Dave
 
I'm flying my 4th RV they and didn't build any of them. The RV is a great aircraft and I do love rebuilding and updating them and will always fly experimental for that reason.
I watch the market and the built flying aircraft don't stay on the market long. The Partial built kits are harder to sell, for a family member it would be even harder. If you are looking for a project get one outdated and update it, requires much less time. Enjoy the flying leave the building to the young guys. You cant go wrong with either a 14 or 10, not sue witch is easier to get in and out of, I would send time in both.
 
tspear said:
In terms of insurance. If the issue is four seats, why not make an RV-10 with two seats?
The engines in both planes is over 200HP, which is/was the high performance benchmark for insurance historically. Same for most of the performance specs of the planes. They are fairly close, the largest difference is the UL and number of seats.

Tim
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1. Removing two seats (some just remove the seat belts) saves very little in terms of insurance cost. It won’t affect the hull insurance, which is 85% of my insurance premium, liability is only 15%.
2. ‘High Performance’ is not just an insurance standard; over 200 HP the FAA requires a ‘high performance’ endorsement.

Off topic trivia question: I do not have a ‘complex’ endorsement, yet I can legally fly retractable (SE) airplanes. How can this be?
 
BobTurner said:
1. Removing two seats (some just remove the seat belts) saves very little in terms of insurance cost. It won’t affect the hull insurance, which is 85% of my insurance premium, liability is only 15%.
2. ‘High Performance’ is not just an insurance standard; over 200 HP the FAA requires a ‘high performance’ endorsement.

Off topic trivia question: I do not have a ‘complex’ endorsement, yet I can legally fly retractable (SE) airplanes. How can this be?
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Fixed pitch prop and/or no flaps?
 
BobTurner said:
Off topic trivia question: I do not have a ‘complex’ endorsement, yet I can legally fly retractable (SE) airplanes. How can this be?
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If youre old like me, could be the same reason I don’t have a tailwheel, high performance, or complex endorsement…grandfathered in from the days before they existed…..
 
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