R

rejnovca

Active Member
The purpose of this thread is to promote a discussion and resolution of what are potentailly serious issues regarding the Rotax engine warranty for the RV-12. Additional background information can be found in the Post regarding Oil Pressure Failure RV-12. I had a chance to speak with Richard this AM as the RV-12 I am building is based at the same airport. Those of us who have experimental airplanes have usually had excellent supplier response in resolving issues. After listening to Richard's experience in trying to resolve the oil pressure sender failure the words "astounding" and "unbelievable" are not adequate. In a nut shell, there is a warranty but no one has stepped forward to say they will honor the warranty and the warranty process itself is a mystery. It is not right that after paying $25 grand for an engine that the customer is left on his own to sort out problems without prompt customer service from the engine supplier. Even simple mattters such as who should be contacted in Rotax are not adequately defined. I conclude that unless this matter is resolved that all RV-12 builders are faced with unacceptable warranty risk. Imagine the scenario if you experience problems and have to land at an airport other than your home airport.
RV-12 builders and Van's Aircraft .... what are your thoughts and what action can be taken to resolve the problem and communicate outcome?

Ron
 
I don't see this as a warranty issue, I see this as a communication issue. There has been no communication (that I'm aware of) in the "Oil Failure Thread" with one of the 3 major service centers in the country. I believe the best course of action is for the person with the problem to contact California Power Supply, Leading Edge Airfoils, or Lockwood Aviation to determine if the warranty will will be honored. Typically, electronic parts are not covered under warranty so I would not loose any sleep if the warranty on an oil pressure sending unit is denied. While I understand a certain amount of frustration, replace the part with an aftermarket one and fly on.

I have owned several Rotax aircraft engines in several different aircraft over the past 9 years. I have flown about 800 hours behind and in front of Rotax engines. I know Rotax, and I know they will stand behind their engines, and their warranties. I have had to take them up on warranty replacements of starters, sprag clutches, and other components that were in SB a long the way. They ALWAYS work through their service centers, so IMHO Van's is out of the loop at this point in time. I also know Vans, and I'm certain they will assist us in getting to the right people if a true need arises, but they are under no obligation to enforce the warranty of a component they sold. Would you send the Garmin 496 back to Vans if it broke?

The Rotax 912 series engines will last twice as long as a Lycoming if proper maintenance is performed to factory specs, and you use the correct oil. The Rotax 912s will save enough in fuel over the life of a Lycoming engine to replace the engine free, twice. I know of Rotax S engines that have over 4,000 hours on them and they are still flying strong. The US military installs Rotax 914 engines (turbo charged 912S) in the Predator for UV. Their performance record is unquestioned, and their warranty claim record is excellent.

Ron, while I appreciate your concern, and I think it is a good idea for us to explore who would be our contacts for warranty claims, I am not going to worry about my warranty over 1 failed oil pressure sending unit.


JMHO.
 
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I did indeed talk to CPS 3 or 4 times and left two unanswered messages. The story from Lockwood is exactly the same. "The guy who knows about that isn't here but you can buy one for $400".

I have not talked to leading edge but I will first thing Monday morning.

I read warranty and parts and labor are covered "at its sole discretion". I did come across a part of the warranty that says "owner must notify an authorized Rotax distributor/dealer, in writing within 2 weeks of a condition that the owner believes is resulting from an anomaly in material or workmanship." This must be on a form from the maintenance manual titled "customer service information report". "Failure to do so will result in this limited warranty coverage being denied". That is exactly what it says.

It is interesting that people have had good experience in the past but I certainly have not. There are 250 -12's in the pipeline. Mine is just a $400 dollar part but somebody is going to have a bigger problem at some point probably. Is this the way we want it handled. I understand that Van's is not in the engine business and can't support them.
 
R Gaines,

I feel you pain man, but give the system time to work. I think in the end, you will be pleased with the results. Give it a little time, get a new sending unit, and get back in the air. I know it can be frustrating, and you have every right to be. Remember you called Kalifornia & Florida on a Friday, no one in those states works on Fridays! ;)

I for one am going to stock an OP sending unit so I'm not grounded.
 
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Rotax Warranty Service

[comment overtaken by events and Richard's comment above :)]
I know for a fact Richard talked with both CPS and Lockwood and got similar non-answers from both. I think that the problem may stem from the fact that Vans may have mass-purchased their Rotax engines direct from Austria and the Honeywell Oil Pressure sender came already mounted on the engine. I'm not sure, but that seemed to confuse the dealers. Perhaps they usually don't supply this part with the engine?

CPS told him he would have to buy the ($400) replacement sender and then submit a request for warranty coverage on it. I talked with Jeremy at CPS when I was on the ramp with VOM in hand and he was friendly and helpful in answering our technical rotax questions. Once we determined the sender was clearly at fault is when the finger pointing began.

Joe at Vans also deserves credit for helping answer questions so we could confirm the bad sender. Tech support is not the problem; getting someone to take ownership for OEM parts attached to the Rotax engine may be.

For example, sooner or later those ducati rect/regulators are going to fail. Replacements can be found at a motorcycle shop if you know where to look but will getting a warranty replacement mean calling Ducati or Rotax (CPS, etc.)? There's no clear path for the OEM parts.

The Honeywell OP sender is a fairly new item and is probably in short supply in the potted cable variant. We can't see the whole part number on the sender on the -12 as it is faded out. I'm pretty sure the one we need is almost like the MLH010BGB06E part but with the cable instead of metripak connector and that's not in stock. I suspect its a many-week lead time from honeywell's dealers.

-Neil
 
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It would seem from the several posts today that Mr. Gaines has done all the things he should have done, he contacted Van?s for the information he needed because he does not have a proper wiring diagram and he was helped to determine that it is a sender failure.

He contacted two out of three national distributors during normal business hours and received a cool reception at best. Perhaps this is a result of Van?s purchasing engines directly from the manufacture overseas as an airframe manufacture, which bypasses the three USA national Distributors, it is just a guess but they may not make any money from the engines sold by the factory to the aircraft manufacture. This is similar to one of us buying a new car from some discount dealer three states away and then expecting our local car dealer for that model to be happy to see us when we need warranty work.

The hard part here is that Mr. Gaines must buy a unite from the USA Distributor (if they have one) for about $ 400 and hope that he gets it back from Rotax or he can buy a $ 76 dollar unit and get flying with no hope of recovery from Rotax. In this case it is small money, but what if his engine (or yours or mine soon) had a larger problem like a failed valve, which could cost up to as much as the engine cost new to repair. Do we then have to have one of the USA Distributors do the repair and pay them and hope that Rotax agrees to pay all of it? What if we do this and they decide that they should only pay 25%?

It is just my opinion but I think Ron hit the nail on the head in his first post in this thread when he said ?I read warranty and parts and labor are covered "at its sole discretion"? and ?I conclude that unless this matter is resolved that all RV-12 builders are faced with unacceptable warranty risk.?

Larry, I am pleased to hear that you have had good experience with Rotax in the past, which speaks well of them. I have a hard time understanding how we did business with Van?s, they took our money and we are their customers and they are not involved? Rotax has not had any contact with most of us and would not know who we are if we called them, yeas we will explain that we now own one of the engines they sold to Van?s but that was a large wholesale sale and we have no information as to the details or conditions of that agreement as to who and how much support would be provided to the end user or by whom.

Perhaps someone from Rotax would be kind enough to address this forum with how they see the warranty system working on these engines and how and where we should seek normal technical support so that we might have the proper names, emails and phone numbers of people who do understand both who we are and that we have been sent to them by Rotax. If Rotax is not able to do this them I do not think it is to much to ask that Van?s provide us with the appropriate guidance.

Just one customer?s thoughts.

Best regards,
Vern
 
vernhendershott said:
...This is similar to one of us buying a new car from some discount dealer three states away and then expecting our local car dealer for that model to be happy to see us when we need warranty work...
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I know this is a difficult situation, but with cars the warranty work would be done. With cars, any dealer will do the warranty work and I mean absolutely any dealer. Happy or not, I don't know, but the work will be done or the dealer will no longer be a dealer.

I do hope it is the same with Rotax engines.
 
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What?

Geico266 said:
The Rotax 912 series engines will last twice as long as a Lycoming if proper maintenance is performed to factory specs, and you use the correct oil. The Rotax 912s will save enough in fuel over the life of a Lycoming sengine to replace the engine free, twice. I know of Rotax 912s engines that have over 4,000 hours on them and they are still flying strong. The US military installs Rotax 914 engines (turbo charged 912s) in the Predator for UMV. Their performance record is unquestioned, and their warranty claim record is excellant.

JMHO.
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Really?..I can't argue the life of the engine question as I have no data..but the statement about fuel is presumably only correct if one is using 100LL in said Lycoming.

If one uses mogas like the Rotax uses then I would submit that unles the Rotax has an unbelievably low BSFC number (and seeing as the carbs on the Rotax do not allow running LOP, then that CAN'T be true) then it is clear the fuel consumption between both engines on a HP produced basis is the same at best.
And if you wan't less HP on an IO360 then simply fly higher.

Either way you cut it there is no way the Rotax is more fuel eeficient than a Lyclone.

Frank
 
Having said that..the Rotax is not a bad motor in anyway, I had a small subaru in my old Zodiac and believe me I wished I had a Rotax more than once..Lets just be realistic about the abilities of the engine though..

Frank
 
vernhendershott said:
I have a hard time understanding how we did business with Van’s, they took our money and we are their customers and they are not involved?
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Vans has sold hundreds of Lycoming engines but I don't recall the RV community demanding Vans get involved with service issues with those engines. We have always expected to be required to deal with the engine manufacturer if warranty problems arose.

How is the Rotax arrangement any different?
 
Sam Buchanan said:
Vans has sold hundreds of Lycoming engines but I don't recall the RV community demanding Vans get involved with service issues with those engines. We have always expected to be required to deal with the engine manufacturer if warranty problems arose.

How is the Rotax arrangement any different?
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Hi Sam,

You make a good point and it is something to think about. I guess it is that when selling the Lycoming it was an option in that you could buy from Van's if the price was good (which it was most often) or you could supply your own engine to the specification you wanted, it could be new or used, low cost or a high priced "hot rod". It also had something to do with Lycoming providing ready and good customer service so the issue of coming back to Van's just did not arise.

With the RV-12 as an ELSA we had no choice but to buy the engine from Van's and they determined all the specifications and accessories to be used and supplied same. If we by some past experience knew that a selected component like the starter was of poor quality and some other vendor had a starter that was far better we could only take the poor starter and at additional expense replace it after the RV-12 was certified.

To me it seems that when you sell a full package that must be done your way you are not relived of your vendor responsibilities by just saying that "oh that is something we had nothing to do with so go see Rotax for all the support they choose to provide". Please understand I am not saying that Van's is doing this we need to wait and see how this current issue plays out.

Have a good day.

Best regards,
Vern
 
vernhendershott said:
With the RV-12 as an ELSA we had no choice but to buy the engine from Van's and they determined all the specifications and accessories to be used and supplied same. If we by some past experience knew that a selected component like the starter was of poor quality and some other vendor had a starter that was far better we could only take the poor starter and at additional expense replace it after the RV-12 was certified.
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Even though it may be of little consolation to RV-12 builders who have engine accessory problems, I think we are seeing an issue that is primarily a function of the ELSA regulations instead of a question of whether or not Vans is supporting the Rotax engines.

I suspect that in the future an increasingly higher percentage of RV-12's will be built as EAB aircraft instead of ELSA. This will occur as more and more DAR's become familiar with the plane and builders decide they can leave the ELSA envelope with confidence. This will make the current questions moot for many builders as they go back into the same engine situation that now exists with the other RV models.

If Vans started "supporting" the 912, the can of worms that would be opened would be mind-boggling and no doubt would drive up the price of the engines. Hopefully the sender issue can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction once all the players become involved.
 
Hi Sam,

Yes there have been many unforeseen issues for Van's that came from doing an ELSA project. Yes, the timing of the FAA getting out of sorts on the 51% rule contributed to the problem considerably and it was just virgin territory. At this point Van's is at best passive to EAB RV-12's and at times seems negative to the concept, but that may just be their trying to protect the large investment the ELSA concept. I hope they have not been badly hurt by it. I am sure that they did not see the consequences coming from getting into the Avionics business or the complete Fire Wall Forward business. Like most forms of business they may look simple but when you get into them you find that there issues of support and customer care that you may not have seen or understood when you started the business. I am sure from my talks with them that this is where they are today, I am sure they will find a way out of the issues, I just wish they could stop being so defensive and listen to their customer base just a little (they do not have to hear me) many of their strongest support have ask for resolution to serious issues and so far Van's is not responding with the information their customers need.

I would hope that Van's will actively support RV-12's as EAB aircraft so that people can use used Rotax engines and steam gages in the panel if they wish. In some cases this would permit the builder to save about 33% on an RV-12 build, I would think that this would increase the potential customer base and thus total sales, it would also lower the support requirement.

Have a good day.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Sam Buchanan said:
Vans has sold hundreds of Lycoming engines but I don't recall the RV community demanding Vans get involved with service issues with those engines. We have always expected to be required to deal with the engine manufacturer if warranty problems arose.

How is the Rotax arrangement any different?
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Van reguires us to build with his engine if we go E-LSA. Van is listed as the manufacturer. Not just the supplier of parts.
 
LSA homebuilts are a whole new ball game

Vagabond 11 said:
Van reguires us to build with his engine if we go E-LSA. Van is listed as the manufacturer. Not just the supplier of parts.
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Van's is not the source of the requirement that an E-LSA RV-12 be built only with a Rotax engine. The requirement comes from FAA regualtions pertaining to E-LSA aircraft. The LSA homebulit world is a whole new ball game, and those palying it need to figure out the rules.
 
Dave Cole said:
Van's is not the source of the requirement that an E-LSA RV-12 be built only with a Rotax engine. The requirement comes from FAA regulations pertaining to E-LSA aircraft. The LSA homebuilt world is a whole new ball game, and those playing it need to figure out the rules.
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Hi Dave,

While it is true that Van's designed the RV-12 so that the Rotax is the only engine that fits the needs of the RV-12 design, there is no FAA rule that requires the use of the Rotax engine. Van's could have designed around the Jabiru, or several other engines from Lycoming if they had wanted to. There is even a Cub like aircraft with the 180 HP Lycoming on it. The RV-12 was well designed to provide maximum performance and to stay with in the LSA rules, to provide as large a payload as possible Van's decided on the Rotax and so we must use it because no other engine will fit the design, at least not any that are in large quantity production.

You are correct that we must all learn the new LSA rules and play by them, and this is part of what makes it different when we get the Rotax from Van's for an RV-12 as compared to a RV-8 builder who elects to buy his Lycoming engine through Van's. On the RV-12 Van's works on the engines at their plant in Oregon before they are sent to us and if I recall correctly one of my friends who purchased his Lycoming engine through Van's received it directly from Lycoming. In the RV-12 we must follow Van's plans exactly and use only the parts Van's supplies, where the RV-8 builder dose all the engineering for the engine systems and accessories, if the RV-8 builder makes an error and has engine trouble because of it then it is his doing that may have caused the problem. On the RV-12 if we builders follow the plans correctly and there is an issue then many of us feel that Van's is the party responsible. We had just such an issue with the voltage regulator, the design of the wiring was incorrect and it fried several voltage regulators. To Van's credit they made good on that issue and the problem is corrected now. It dose serve to show that EAB kits and ELSA kits are very different in many ways some of which we are all still learning.

Best regards,
Vern
 
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vernhendershott said:
On the RV-12 Van's works on the engines at their plant in Oregon before they are sent to us
Best regards,
Vern
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Just to clarify...
As far as I know, the only thing done to the Rotax engine at Van's is to remove it from the shipping box and repack it into a larger crate with the rest of the power plant kit.
 
Warranty

Just got off the phone with Leading Edge, the only one of the authorized service stations that I had not yet talked to about the failed oil pressure sensor. They don't have one but.. I found out more about the way they do business.

I was told several versions of what to do. First was that I had to go to who ever I bought the engine from for the warranty. Then I should go to the one in California because it was closest.

They said the way it works is you buy the part and fill out paper work and send in the old part and they send it to Kodiac. I asked who that was and was told it was the mother company in Austria. I have never heard that name before. The part in question is a $400 sensor that lasted 12 hours and failed in flight. I asked theoretically "what would happen if rather than a sensor it had been the oil pump and the engine had seized while I was doing my emergency landing....would I have to pay another $25000 dollars and hope for reimbursement?" They could not answer that one since they had not had the situation before. Bottom line is "you buy the part that failed, fill out paper work if you want to fly again."

I can't think of a single other product that works like that.
 
RGaines said:
I was told several versions of what to do. First was that I had to go to who ever I bought the engine from for the warranty. Then I should go to the one in California because it was closest.

. Bottom line is "you buy the part that failed, fill out paper work if you want to fly again."

I can't think of a single other product that works like that.
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Hi,

Interesting that they told you the intuitive thing to do, that being go to the people who sold it to you.

It would be interesting to hear from Van's as to what their relationship is with Rotax, are they just a customer to Rotax like we are to Van's or are they in a different class like an OEM or Distributor? I think we need to understand how Rotax views us to understand how we should proceed should we have an issue.

Yes the buy a new one at a very high price and hope for some help is not a normal situation, particularly when you said you had found a suitable replacement for about $ 75. I know that many wholesale warranties work that way, take a car dealer that gives you the new part from his floor-plan inventory and he is charged for it at his price, he sends in the paperwork and holds the failed part in case the car company wants it for evaluation, the car company reimburses the dealer for the part by credit to the inventory account and that part is invisible to the customer. If Van's is a dealer or distributor perhaps this would be a possible outcome, if not we may be someone with a second hand engine trying to get noticed by Rotax, it would be nice to know so that we can learn how to go forward when a possible warranty issues comes up. In the current case with the oil pressure transmitter, perhaps having a Rotax approved service center do the trouble shooting (at a significant cost) may have been the proper procedure as Rotax would view it and they may have paid the labor cost (of course at their sole discretion), at this time we do not know what procedures to follow so it would seem that perhaps Van's could be of some help by just informing us how they have been told by Rotax that their customers should act when they have an issue that could become a warranty claim.

Have a good day.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Doesn't Van's stock spares?

You would think that Van's would stock at least a few spare parts like this. It certainly wouldn't cost that much to stock spare regulators, oil caps, sender units, belts (?) and other bolt on items that have the possibility of failure. Are RV-12 buyers expected to deal with these normal failures directly with a non-responsive parent company on the other-side-of-the-planet? I can't imagine paying $25,000 in hard-money (no options and no choice in engine selection) and being in an 'Aircraft On Ground' situation while various importers, suppliers and middlemen pass the buck. The would certainly put me off 'investing' in an RV-12. JMO-YMMV.
 
I don't intend here to get into taking sides, just to clarify a few things.

First I would say let's give Van's more than 14 or 20 business hours to get this sorted out. Second, realize that on most of the system components Van's is a customer to the mfgr just like anyone else.

I think we've all seen over the years that Van's is better than any other supplier out there by many times over at taking care of their customers. It's unrealistic and not credible to think that a problem to which they were notified about last Friday (or Thursday or whatever day late last week) at noon will be completely and entirely resolved by Monday noon.

I completely and entirely understand everyones position here (probably better than anyone else) since we supply a good sized portion of the RV-12 avionics/electrical system and also have our own set of warranty issues and technical support to deal with so I'm intimately aware of how things work. That being said, PLEASE give Van's a little bit of breathing room here to help you.

I know it's frustrating to be in the position you are in, but give the system a chance to work before starting an online mutiny. Look at the timeframe here...we're not talking about months or even weeks...when you factor normal business operations, we're talking hours!

I'm just suggesting a little patience....

Cheers,
Stein
 
Just to play devil's advocate from the other side of the Atlantic...

I'm an aircraft mechanic by trade and if we have a warranty claim on a US manufactured item be it an alternator, starter motor, gyro instrument etc then we have to purchase a replacement and wait for the part to be returned to the manufacturer in the States who will decide whether it is a valid warranty claim or not. It's a pain but a way of life.

From what I see, Rotax are doing a similar thing here. We aren't talking cars here, we are talking aircraft. If you buy a brand new aircraft, the warranty may be controlled by Cessna or Piper for the airframe and then Lycoming for the engine and Garmin for the avionics. You don't just go back to the aircraft manufacturer for the whole thing.

As Stein said, give the process and people involved a chance to react.

The Rotax is European and has thousands if not millions of hours of flight under its pistons in Europe (and in the desert...) and it is a good, reliable bit of kit.

There is life after Lycoming and Continental. People over here hope (with an unlikely chance of success) that the Cessna 162 will have a Rotax option for Europe (like the proof of concept aircraft initially had) rather than an antiquated O-200.

Vern - what can I send you to make you happy....?! ;)
 
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