RV8R999

Well Known Member
Anyone try using rivnuts to secure the floor panels instead of blind rivets or nutplates? I've never used rivnuts previously so am curious. Certainly would make it easy to have removable floor panels without drilling a bunch of 3/32" holes for all those nutplates...but I'd worry about their holding torque capability. It would suck to have one of those things spin in the hole while trying to remove the floor plates! Any thoughts?

Ken
 
Ken,

If you are going to use rivnuts, make sure you use the keyed ones. They are better about not spinning.

The problem with using rivnuts is stand proud of the surface, so your skins won't lay flush.

BTW, rivnuts are not structural and should only be used to hold fairings in place. IMHO.

I believe the floors on all RV are structural, check with Van's to make sure.
 
And then there's the cost. Rivnuts are not cheap.

My experience is that the blind rivets are the way to go. If you ever have to remove the floor, the rivets are soft and come out quicker than unscrewing all those screws (whether platenut or rivnut), and they go back in just as quick. I've done it. I'm so glad I did not use platenuts.

Chris
 
If you ever have to remove the floor, the rivets are soft and come out quicker than unscrewing all those screws (whether platenut or rivnut), and they go back in just as quick. I've done it. I'm so glad I did not use platenuts.

Me too. I've drilled out my blind rivets once and it was totally no big thing.
 
Ditto!

I drilled mine out one time in 16 years to install steps. Went back with the pulled rivets. Easy to drill out, easy to replace.
 
How often do the floor panels that are secured with pulled rivets pulled up to access underneath? I am rebuilding an 8 and the origional builder used nutplates and so I am putting nutplates back in. But after looking at what is under the panels that would have pulled rivets I don't see why you would really need them. And wouldn't the pulled rivets be a weight savings over the nutplates and screws? Every ounce counts I would think but I could be wrong.
 
This is what I did with mine. It was fast, easy and fairly cheap. Here is the link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/tinnerman.php

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thanks for the feedback! Like as was mentioned I'm not really convinced I'll ever need/want to remove the floors. Just asking the question about rivnuts cause if it works and is easy (and not to expensive) then why not.

I agree drilling out the old ones is not too difficult... probably the way I'll go.

Thanks again.

Ken
 
One Data point...

How often do the floor panels that are secured with pulled rivets pulled up to access underneath? I am rebuilding an 8 and the origional builder used nutplates and so I am putting nutplates back in.

Close to 1,000 hours in about 4 years, and I have had to remove the riveted floor panels exactly.....never.....;)

Van is no dummy - he figured that there was no real reason to get under those particular panels in an -8, so saved the time (and expense - this IS Van's A/C we're talking about) of mounting all those nutplates with pop rivets.

Paul
 
One Point of View

In an effort to keep things simple and hold kit costs down for all of us, Van's does direct the builder to pop rivet many assemblies into place on a permanent basis. These items include the cabin floors, empennage fairings, and wingtips among other items. In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with that design philosophy because it is fast, cheap and it works. HOWEVER, for whatever reason, many builders go on to attach wingtips using screws and nut plates. I even made all the empennage tips removable. For both practical and psychological reasons, I followed the lead of my experience in aircraft construction where NOTHING on military planes is ever covered up on a permanent basis.

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In keeping with that design philosophy I made the floors removable on both my RV's and on both my RV's I am glad I did. After screwing the floors into place "permanently" I later decided on design changes that required additional wires. NO BIG DEAL. Off the floors came and in with the additional wiring. Some builders install conduit under the floor and accept whatever limitations are inherent with that choice. Others will happily snake wires under the floors as best they can and leave it go at that. Not me. No visions of unsupported wires bouncing around underneath my feet in any RV I build.

Question: What if your passenger spills a full can of soda, its syrupy contents seeping under the floor? You just gonna leave that sticky residue down there to entice mud daubers and field mice with its heady scent?

Another point: On a tricycle gear RV, the structure somewhere beneath your feet is the low point on the airframe and water has been known to collect in that area. Maybe the builder thought to drill some drain holes, maybe he didn't. If he did, in practice maybe the location is proving less than 100% effective. If he didn't drill any drain holes..... well, he didn't. Like many things, these are choices. Even though I prefer the floors be installed with screws, I still feel no need to remove them at every condition inspection. Indeed, barring some obvious justification, will only do so every 5 years or so. I just want to take a look around. Sure you can drill out a series of pop rivets but by training and inclination justs seems a bit "cheesy" to me.

Bottom line: Assess your own requirements. The airplane you build is an expression and extension of yourself, not unlike the car parked in your driveway. No doubt other builders assess their own requirements and they stop short after deciding to make the wingtips removable despite Van's instructions. So then, choosing to install removable wingtips or any other design variance then becomes a matter of degree, does it not? Rest assured, no matter what path we choose, it is a virtual certainty other builders with come to conclusions quite the polar opposite our own. That's what makes RV's unique, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
 
In the sheetmetal industry, pop rivets are considered better that screws because they take less effort to install, and when you come back to make a repair you don't fiddle around with stuck screws or other fasteners. You just drill them all out. The hole in the center makes drilling a snap.
Then when you are done working in there you don't have to find and re-use a bunch of old beat up hardware, and replace the ones you lost with parts you don't have with you. You just close it up with all new pop rivets.
It's not just a cheap easy substitute, It's actually better! It's lighter and designed to the strength required.
I guess you know how I went :cool:
 
Rivnuts

rivnuts are potential replacements for platenuts or nutplates, as they are sometimes called. I bought a boat load of rivnuts of every size and shape I could find, hoping that I could use them in places that were very difficult to get to with a rivet squeezer or rivet gun.

What I found was that the rivnuts can be useful, but in most of the places I wanted to use them, they didn't help.

Basically rivnuts can be used in places where you can't get to the other side. Of course, you can always use pop rivets to hold a nutplate in place if you can't get to the other side with the rivet equipment, but if you *totally* can't get to the other side, then a rivnut is appropriate.

Problems with rivnuts are:

* you have to drill a pretty big hole to put in the rivnut
* you have to do a lot of countersinking to get a flush rivnut
* round rivnuts can possibly rotate since there is not much holding them steady in the hole
* notched rivnuts require a special tool to punch a shaped hole
* rivnuts require special tools to insert them, and these tools are expensive (unless you can find them on E-bay)
* all the special tools that I could find are quite large, and don't allow you to install rivnuts in any type of corner or tight space

The best thing about rivnuts is that they are fast to install. You only have to drill one (big) hole, stick the rivnut on the tool, and squeeze the install lever. Very fast, and easy. I just wish they were easy to install in tight spaces.

BTW, I did my floors like Axel - with the clipnuts.
 
Problems with rivnuts are:

* you have to drill a pretty big hole to put in the rivnut
* you have to do a lot of countersinking to get a flush rivnut
* round rivnuts can possibly rotate since there is not much holding them steady in the hole
* notched rivnuts require a special tool to punch a shaped hole
* rivnuts require special tools to insert them, and these tools are expensive (unless you can find them on E-bay)
* all the special tools that I could find are quite large, and don't allow you to install rivnuts in any type of corner or tight space
The fact that rivnuts can rotate is perhaps the biggest problem. Once it has "rotated", how do you get the screw out to replace it? Obviously you can't get to the back of the rivnut to hold it. That's why you used it to begin with.
Personally, I have not had very good luck with rivnuts. YMMV!