Charles in SC

Well Known Member
For those that have gone before me on this what rivets did you use in the side cowl strips -3 or -4? regular or soft? On my James cowl the fiberglass is about .040 thick so I am not sure there is enough meat there to countersink for a -4.
Thanks in advance!
 
Standard 3 rivets.

When done put a bid or two of glass over the rivet heads to mitigate them from popping through the paint over the years. Some micro over the tape while doing the rest of the cowl, prime and done.

Carl
 
Don't forget to bed the hinges in epoxy/flox, with extra holes in the hinge for the mix to bleed through. Then the epoxy will do most of the work, & hopefully keep the rivets from 'working' in the future.

I had a perfect, smoothly operating fit on my hinges, and instead of letting the epoxy cure with only clecos holding the hinges I got in a hurry & riveted while the epoxy was still wet. The inside of the cowl *isn't* perfectly smooth, and riveting wet pulled the hinge stock into just enough waviness to make hinge insertion more difficult.

Charlie
 
Standard 3 rivets.

When done put a bid or two of glass over the rivet heads to mitigate them from popping through the paint over the years. Some micro over the tape while doing the rest of the cowl, prime and done.

Carl

Are you saying that I should bury the show side of the rivets in glass?
 
rv7 charlie...........do you let the epoxy fully cure? how do you get the clecoes out of fully cured resin?
 
rv7 charlie...........do you let the epoxy fully cure? how do you get the clecoes out of fully cured resin?

I wiped the end of my clecoes with vegetable oil before insertion.

The clecoes popped off after the epoxy cured with no swear words needed. :) A sharp blade was then used to clean up any epoxy blobs where the shop heads would be on the hinges.

The main retention is the epoxy that oozed through the extra 3/16 holes drilled in between the rivet locations.
 
rv7 charlie...........do you let the epoxy fully cure? how do you get the clecoes out of fully cured resin?

I *didn't* let it cure; I got paranoid that I'd ruin a few dozen clecos, & started riveting fairly quickly after doing the epoxy step. The clecos aren't strong enough to pull the hinge down into every variation in the 'glass surface, but the rivets will.

My original plan was to wax up the clecos, then dip them in lube (I think I used petroleum jelly). IIRC, I got in a hurry & just used the petroleum jelly, then got worried about either locking them in the assy, or ruining the clecos. So I started riveting/removing clecos while the assy was still 'wet'.

I'm pretty sure that if I'd just waited until the epoxy was 'green' (I think that's the term 'glass guys use), I could have pulled the clecos easily & nothing would have moved during the rest of the cure. In fact, I probably could have left them in through the full cure. They were old, dirty, slightly corroded, and had a layer of petroleum jelly on them. In retrospect, I'm doubtful that the West system is *that* good. :)

I didn't take enough photos, but looking at the ones I did take, I noticed a few other details.

Don't forget to protect the eyelets from the epoxy. I think I used removable scotch tape (like you'd use over a line of rivets) wrapped around just the line of eyelets. Tedious, but not as bad as digging the epoxy out of the eylets.

I made shims for the back 6-8 inches of the side hinges, to move the pin line inboard far enough to clear the vertical hinge line and get a little space between the firewall flange and the hole through the firewall (my pins go into the cabin). You need enough space there to drill that hole bigger for the guide tube.

IIRC, I used ratchet straps & pieces of angle to hold the 'spread' of the cowl to the same dimension it has on the firewall. To be honest, I really can't remember if I did any of the epoxy work with the cowl mounted to the firewall, but that might be worth considering, at least for the lower half. If you can maintain the spread (with the cowl off the plane) with both halves pinned together, then the eyelet line will be held permanently when the epoxy bed cures.

I just know it was a major disappointment for me to have the pins sliding in/out effortlessly when everything was cleco'd, but have them binding & needing a drill to 'turn' them in after squeezing the rivets too early.

There's a JamesAircraft group on Yahoo, if you're interested. You might get some more tips/tricks over there.

Hope the above is helpful...

Charlie
 
Are you saying that I should bury the show side of the rivets in glass?

Bury is not the word I would use. On the "show side" you want the rivet heads to be flush with the glass. After set, then some light sanding and a strip of fiberglass over the rivet heads. Put some peal ply on the glass so you set up for a layer of micro over the glass and beyond to sand and fair. As most people need a least a skim layer of micro on the cowl to sand, do the hinge line with the rest of the cowl.

The other recommendations you got are equally important:
- The hinge gets set on a bed of flox. I used a mixture of flox and micro.
- Do not set the rivets until the flox sets. Just use clecos. That way you will not distort the straight hinge line.

Carl
 
To add to Gil's response

The best method i have found, once the hinges have been drilled to the cowling , is to:
Rough up the mating sirface of the hinge and cowling
Drill holes in the hinge between the rivet holes, as Van says to do.
Use epoxy and flox to bond them together, but make sure you put the cowling back together, on the plane with the hinge pins while it sets up, with the clevos still in place. I put peel ply over the inside hinge rivet line to keep the epoxy from running and to make it look better.
After the epoxy has cured, remove the clecos, redrill rivet holes as necessary, countersink and rivet. I always put the hinge pin back in while riveting, just in case you squeeze on a hinge eye.
You dont have to do all the hinge lines at the same time if you dont think you have enough time to complete all the epoxy work at once, but i would do at least both hinge halfs on a hinge line at once.
The advantages of this are that you dont have to worry about the thickness of the cowling for countersinking, the hinges will fit and work really good and you can take your time riveting with no gooey mess.
Good luck
 
I wiped the end of my clecoes with vegetable oil before insertion.

The clecoes popped off after the epoxy cured with no swear words needed. :) A sharp blade was then used to clean up any epoxy blobs where the shop heads would be on the hinges.

The main retention is the epoxy that oozed through the extra 3/16 holes drilled in between the rivet locations.

did the same with proseal on my tanks. No problem getting the clecos out. I left the blobs of proseal on the clecos - they worked better!

Also, I did a wheel pant repair for a guy and had rivets flush with the surface with just a bit of micro on them. The micro cracked. It didn't stick that well to the rivet head or something got loose and worked with vibration. I wish I had glassed over the rivets. I am doing my -4 cowling now and I plan to steal that idea plus the idea of riveting AFTER the epoxy sets. Thanks for that tip!
 
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i am building a 12 but am not using van's cowl. holes in the hinges for epoxy are not called for in the instructions for the 12. about what distance is your rivet spacing and how often are the 3/16'' holes drilled for the epoxy/flox to set in?
thanks
 
i am building a 12 but am not using van's cowl. holes in the hinges for epoxy are not called for in the instructions for the 12. about what distance is your rivet spacing and how often are the 3/16'' holes drilled for the epoxy/flox to set in?
thanks

1 inch spacing of -3 rivets. I used a 3/16 hole in between every rivet location.
 
The James cowl instructions for my -7A said resin/flox or proseal. I love the smell of proseal :D so went that route and squeezed the rivets while wet.