aeabe

Member
I am just getting started with my RV12, and have a question regarding rivets and the preparation. Van's Section 5 mentions deburring, and I have been deburring all of the holes lightly. I think I noticed somewhere that someone said no deburring of the pre-punched holes was necessary. Which is right? It would save a lot of time, but I want to do things right.
I am really having fun with this kit.
Thanks for the help.
 
If you look at the pre-punched holes closely, one side has a smooth, slightly rounded lip and the other side looks and feels sharper. I generally only deburr the sharp side, but you will find about as many different opinions on how much to deburr and how to do it (hand tool, 3.6V electric driver, Scotchbrite pad, etc) as there are builders. The main thing is not to overdo it. As I read somewhere, there are no NTSB accident reports that cite insufficient deburring as the cause of the crash.
 
Just my opinion - -

Run your fingers over the holes. If you find one that is in need, do it, otherwise most anything you do may open a spot for corrosion years later. I would say I did maybe less than 1% of any of the holes pre-punched. As said above, you may get lots of different answers to this. My plane is inside a new hangar, so I did not see any value in doing them all. My guess is tiny imperfections will get crunched down when the pop rivet sets.

John Bender
480 + hours
 
Run your fingers over the holes. If you find one that is in need, do it, otherwise most anything you do may open a spot for corrosion years later. I would say I did maybe less than 1% of any of the holes pre-punched. As said above, you may get lots of different answers to this. My plane is inside a new hangar, so I did not see any value in doing them all. My guess is tiny imperfections will get crunched down when the pop rivet sets.

John Bender
480 + hours

John, ditto you beat to the same response :D
 
Lighty deburr all holes

Mating surface should be deburred.
I lightly deburr all holes on both sides.
this is the strongest connection.
A 90 deg sharp corner will shear a rivet sooner than a dull one.

MY View
 
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I asked this question to a Van's employees at Sun n Fun and again when I visited the factory. Both times I got the same answer from different people. I was told that unless utherwised instructed in the plans, factory made finale size fastener holes should not need to be deburred.

Holes you drill do need to be deburred.

-Dave
 
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Should not or need not

Should not or need not ?

and names please

I stand corrected
I should have said
( Mating surface should be lightly deburred on both sides for the strongest connection ).

A 90 deg sharp corner will shear a rivet sooner than a dull one

I lightly deburr all holes on both sides.

I asked this question to a Van's employees at Sun n Fun and again when I visited the factory. Both times I got the same answer from different people. I was told that unless utherwised instructed in the plant, factory made finale size fastener holes should not need to be deburred.

Holes you drill do need to be deburred.

-Dave
 
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Structures must fit flush, drilling and punching operations leave "burrs" which must be removed prior to riveting or bolting structures together.

From the Bible (43-13, section 4):

4-58. REPAIR METHODS AND PRECAUTIONS
FOR ALUMINUM STRUCTURE.
Carefully examine all adjacent rivets
outside of the repair area to ascertain that they
have not been harmed by operations in adjacent
areas. Drill rivet holes round, straight,
and free from cracks. Deburr the hole with an
oversize drill or deburring tool.
 
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I was glad I took Scotch Brite pads to the skin holes when I got to the paint shop. Getting the metal prepped for paint required scuffing up all shiny metal for good paint adhesion in the area very close to the rivet. Having done it when applying the skins saved a lot of paint booth time. :D
 
I sent this e-mail to Van's on Nov. 26:

"Good afternoon,

Jim Thornton kit 120647. There seems to be some debate about whether
or not a person should debur the thin skins on the RV-12, so I wanted
to get the answer from the official source.

Thanks, Jim"

This is the response I got back from Ken S:


"It won't hurt. Most people overdo it, at least to start with. Just a brief touch of the deburring
bit is enough."

I've been using a cheap cordless screwdriver with my deburring bit chucked in it and give the burr side of the hole about 1 turn of the deburring bit. Seems to do the job.
 
I've been using a cheap cordless screwdriver with my deburring bit chucked in it and give the burr side of the hole about 1 turn of the deburring bit. Seems to do the job.

Bingo. I have been using and highly recommend the Skil "ixo" cordless screwdriver with a Cleaveland DB04 bit. The Skil is slow enough so it's easy to control the number of turns (1 - 2 only!) and the battery lasts a good long while. Shopping around, they can be had for 25 - 30 bucks. The Cleaveland one-hole bit cuts very cleanly.

The key thing I've had to learn is not to bear down when deburring. The tool does the job, not the armstrong.

RE: Deburring only the "outie" side of the punched hole. Agreed, although a quick pass with a calibrated fingertip does occasionally locate a few minor protrusions on the "innie" side, presumably caused by the punch drawing metal upward as it retracts. Not many though. Seek and ye shall find.

Deburring is therapeutic...enjoy, but avoid too much of a good thing. All above is IMHO based on personal experience, YMMV, void where prohibited.
 
I started doing the screw driver deburring on both sides of all holes. IMHO, that probably weakens the structure as it thins the materials that the rivets are designed to hold.

Then I found my cogsdill tool - which is designed for professional deburring and it does an excellent job of just taking out the burrs on each side. This is attached to my electric drill and goes in and out and does each side. For skins this is fast and effective and I don't worry about weakening the rivet holes with excessive metal removal trying to get all the burrs out.

I do agree that the punched in side doesn't need to be deburred generally....only the punched out side.

I still use the screwdriver for thicker parts and parts that need it. The cogsdill on skins.

http://www.cogsdill.com/products/deburring/burraway/
 
The word deburr

The word deburr

If there is a bit of metal sticking out past the surface it is a burr.

If the hole is punched with a new sharp punch the surface that the punch goes into first has no burr but the hole has a very sharp corner and is like a shear ( scissors ) and should be dulled lightly and if this is the mating surface it is more important.

Most rivets in aircraft are loaded in shear.

This is not as important if the design has more rivets then the load.

But think what could happen on a hot bumpy day

My View
 
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The problem (danger) with text discussions like this (no one on one, physical demonstration) is that light deburring can mean very different things to different people. Especially if they are a novice at aircraft construction or working with very thin sheet metal.

A recent post mentioned using an electric screw diver and only turning the bit one revolution. That is probably ok if done properly. Anything more than very light pressure on and the skins could be being turned into scrap without knowing it (considering that with the tool doing the turning, the operator has no torque feedback based on how much pressure they apply) .

The shear strength of a riveted joint is related to many factors (rivet strength, material strength, etc), but for a typical RV builder, they have no control/effect on most of these (it is inherent to the design). Where they do have control is in what they do for deburring. An undeburred hole on an RV-12 skin is not likely to have any strength difference compared to a properly deburred one. The burr is (usually) very small and its sharp edge is aimed away from the skin surface and does not actually bare on the rivet shank directly. If instead of doing nothing, the builder over deburrs both sides of a skin, they are actually reducing the cross section baring area within the hole. This causes two problems. With the load of the rivet working against a reduced baring area, the skin material can have a tenancy to yield at a lower load value than it would have otherwise. The other issue is that you have now made the surface area inside the hole more like a knife edge which can result in it more easily cutting/shearing through the rivet.

Years of experience has shown that RV builders (particularly beginners) tend to deburr excessively, to the point it may actually be weakening a rivet joint (see causes above).

This needs to be taken into consideration even more with an RV-12.
Why, you ask?
Because the skins are thinner than the other RV models. In some cases only half as thick. This leaves very little tolerance for error when deburring RV-12 skins.
This is the reason that emphasis was put on deburring holes made in the traditional way (a drill bit generally leaves a pretty jagged burr that would interfere with flush fit of a mating skin, etc.), but the burr typically left by the punching process is not much of a factor. There are exceptions... (sometimes a tool has started to get dull) so inspecting is a good idea, but anything that does not seem like much to a bare finger slid over it, is probably fine. Once again... describing versus showing is a difficult situation.

Bottom line.... deburring incorrectly can be far more detrimental than not doing it at all. Particularly on an RV-12.
If you are doing it, make sure you know that you are doing it correctly, and not just feeling secure in the fact that "you are building your airplane the right way.... deburring every single hole"

(I have encounter a lot of instances over the years where a builder in full confidence New they were doing something properly, but the weren't even close)
 
The problem (danger) with text discussions like this (no one on one, physical demonstration) is that light deburring can mean very different things to different people. Especially if they are a novice at aircraft construction or working with very thin sheet metal.

A recent post mentioned using an electric screw diver and only turning the bit one revolution. That is probably ok if done properly. Anything more than very light pressure on and the skins could be being turned into scrap without knowing it (considering that with the tool doing the turning, the operator has no torque feedback based on how much pressure they apply) .

The shear strength of a riveted joint is related to many factors (rivet strength, material strength, etc), but for a typical RV builder, they have no control/effect on most of these (it is inherent to the design). Where they do have control is in what they do for deburring. An undeburred hole on an RV-12 skin is not likely to have any strength difference compared to a properly deburred one. The burr is (usually) very small and its sharp edge is aimed away from the skin surface and does not actually bare on the rivet shank directly. If instead of doing nothing, the builder over deburrs both sides of a skin, they are actually reducing the cross section baring area within the hole. This causes two problems. With the load of the rivet working against a reduced baring area, the skin material can have a tenancy to yield at a lower load value than it would have otherwise. The other issue is that you have now made the surface area inside the hole more like a knife edge which can result in it more easily cutting/shearing through the rivet.

Years of experience has shown that RV builders (particularly beginners) tend to deburr excessively, to the point it may actually be weakening a rivet joint (see causes above).

This needs to be taken into consideration even more with an RV-12.
Why, you ask?
Because the skins are thinner than the other RV models. In some cases only half as thick. This leaves very little tolerance for error when deburring RV-12 skins.
This is the reason that emphasis was put on deburring holes made in the traditional way (a drill bit generally leaves a pretty jagged burr that would interfere with flush fit of a mating skin, etc.), but the burr typically left by the punching process is not much of a factor. There are exceptions... (sometimes a tool has started to get dull) so inspecting is a good idea, but anything that does not seem like much to a bare finger slid over it, is probably fine. Once again... describing versus showing is a difficult situation.

Bottom line.... deburring incorrectly can be far more detrimental than not doing it at all. Particularly on an RV-12.
If you are doing it, make sure you know that you are doing it correctly, and not just feeling secure in the fact that "you are building your airplane the right way.... deburring every single hole"

(I have encounter a lot of instances over the years where a builder in full confidence New they were doing something properly, but the weren't even close)

I wish you would of answered my e-mail to Van's instead of the non-committal one I got from Ken S.

Jim
 
I am just getting started with my RV12, and have a question regarding rivets and the preparation. Van's Section 5 mentions deburring, and I have been deburring all of the holes lightly. I think I noticed somewhere that someone said no deburring of the pre-punched holes was necessary. Which is right? It would save a lot of time, but I want to do things right.
I am really having fun with this kit.
Thanks for the help.

I think way too much metal is removed in the name of deburring. A chamfer should not be put on the holes. At most, burrs protruding above the surface should be removed. Quoting from page 87 of the sixth edition of Standard Aircraft Handbook, which ships with every Van's kit, "Burrs under either head of a rivet do not, in general, result in unacceptable riveting. The burrs do not have to be removed......<snip>......care must be taken to limit the amount of metal removed when deburring. Removel of any appreciable amount of metal from the edge of the rivet hole will result in a riveted joint of lower strength."

Jerre
 
deburring

I deburred ( by hand ) all the holes I drilled and just lightly rubbed the punched ones with a scotchbrite pad
I was told because the skins are so thin that if any material is removed while deburring the rivet strength will be reduced
But I did debur all the edges of all the cut sheets, lightening holes, etc
 
Deburr doesn't mean chamfer

Kens answer is correct and so is Scott's

However a properly deburred hole is as strong or stronger then a non deburred hole ( depending on the burr )

Deburr doesn't mean chamfer the hole ( Just dull the edge )

I use a Hitachi BD30L 3.8V Electric screw driver with a six flute bit.
A very light touch with the screw driver running backward leaves a clean hole with no chamfer just a dull edge.

This can also be accomplished with scotchbrite pad.
However I don't like using a scotchbrite on the outside non primed surface.

This in not a recommendation.

Try it on some scrap then use your judgment.





I wish you would of answered my e-mail to Van's instead of the non-committal one I got from Ken S.

Jim
 
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Kens answer is correct and so is Scott's

However a properly deburred hole is as strong or stronger then a non deburred hole ( depending on the burr )

Deburr doesn't mean chamfer the hole ( Just dull the edge )

I use a Hitachi BD30L 3.8V Electric screw driver with a six flute bit.
A very light touch with the screw driver running backward leaves a clean hole with no chamfer just a dull edge.

This can also be accomplished with scotchbrite pad.
However I don't like using a scotchbrite on the outside non primed surface.

This in not a recommendation.


Try it on some scrap then use your judgment.

Deburring with a MINOR chamfer is OK.

From the Mil Spec for rivets...

Burrs may be removed from rivet holes by chamfering to a depth not to exceed 10 percent of the stock thickness, or 0.032 inch, whichever is less.
Disassembly after drilling and before riveting, in order to deburr faying surfaces, shall not be required.


If you meet this then no design strength of the joint has been lost.

However, this is something to watch for with a thin 0.025 skin -- 10% is 0.0025, a very small dimension, but visible under a magnifying glass. Deburr a few holes and then examine how deep into the skin your chamfer is to set your own technique.

On thin skins Scotchbrite does sound bettter.

Go real easy with that countersink bit in any sort of power tool.:eek:
 
I would have to agree, as Vans stated, that most will overdue the deburr process in the beginning. Go easy as everyone says. Personally I only consider the ones with a burr from the punch. I leave the other side alone. I wouldn't put anything on a power tool with these thin skins.

Edges and lighting holes are a different story though.
 
Thanks to all. I hadn't felt much of a burr on the skins, and it seemed somewhat questionalble about deburring. Also at Oshkosh where they were building a tail kit, I did not see them deburring, and wondered if it had been done previously. I will probably use the "finger micrometer" check. As a surgeon, I feel my fingers are fairly sensitive.