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Echo Tango

Well Known Member
I'm running a 2x gun and it works fine for setting AD3 rivets, but when i get into the AD4s, I can't get the rivets to set properly. On flush rivets, for instance the heads become flattened (50 psi) before the shop head forms and if I turn the pressure up to 60psi the gun is completely uncontrollable (50 is even a bit jumpy).

I am pushing very firmly on the manufacture head with the gun and just letting the bucking bar sit loosely but securely over the shop head. This works GREAT for the AD3 rivets. Very consistent and "pretty" rivets. It takes a good 10+ seconds of trigger pulling to form a marginal shop head on an AD4 size, and by that time the flush heads look a bit "pancaked."

What am I doing wrong here? If I lower the PSI, they won't set at all and tend to work-harden and if I raise the PSI the gun jumps around wildly. Should I buy a 3x gun? I'm getting sick of (but really good at) drilling out rivets. VERY frustrating to the point that I'm avoiding the workshop. I'm about one more bad rivet from throwing my entire project in the trash.
 
Photos would help.

Are you by any chance trying to drive a round head rivet with a flat faced set??
 
Mike S said:
Photos would help.

Are you by any chance trying to drive a round head rivet with a flat faced set??
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i'll get some photos, and no I'm not
laugh.gif
 
ByhLe.jpg

ZKhTU.jpg


let me know if these don't show up. they work for me since they're in my cache but may be invisible to anyone else.

As you can see by the black discoloration the gun was wandering a bit (the two really bad ones were drilled and re-riveted), the others were just done once. You can tell which ones were squeezed. The shop heads are pretty poor as well, IMO
 
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Echo Tango said:
I'm running a 2x gun and it works fine for setting AD3 rivets, but when i get into the AD4s, I can't get the rivets to set properly. On flush rivets, for instance the heads become flattened (50 psi) before the shop head forms and if I turn the pressure up to 60psi the gun is completely uncontrollable (50 is even a bit jumpy).

I am pushing very firmly on the manufacture head with the gun and just letting the bucking bar sit loosely but securely over the shop head. This works GREAT for the AD3 rivets. Very consistent and "pretty" rivets. It takes a good 10+ seconds of trigger pulling to form a marginal shop head on an AD4 size, and by that time the flush heads look a bit "pancaked."

What am I doing wrong here? If I lower the PSI, they won't set at all and tend to work-harden and if I raise the PSI the gun jumps around wildly. Should I buy a 3x gun? I'm getting sick of (but really good at) drilling out rivets. VERY frustrating to the point that I'm avoiding the workshop. I'm about one more bad rivet from throwing my entire project in the trash.
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A 2X rivet gun will drive -4 rivets just fine. The gun is smaller and easier to use than a 3x. While some builders adjust the air pressure depending on rivet size I never do. I prefer leaving the line pressure at 90PSI and adjusting the air flow at the gun. (http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=957) For -4 rivets the regulator would be wide open and closed down for -3 rivets. It should only take about a second to smash -3 or -4 rivets. A swivel flush rivet set helps too. Practice makes perfect.
 
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zilik said:
A 2X rivet gun will drive -4 rivets just fine. The gun is smaller and easier to use than a 3x. While some builders adjust the air pressure depending on rivet size I never do. I prefer leaving the line pressure at 90PSI and adjusting the air flow at the gun. (http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=957) For -4 rivets the regulator would be wide open and closed down for -3 rivets. It should only take about a second to smash -3 or -4 rivets. Practice makes perfect.
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i'll look at getting the regulator. like i said, i can set -3s with my eyes closed. -4s are just extremely stubborn.

and the swivel flush set.
 
The rivets in your pictures are definitely overworked, but you knew that. You can back rivet these just like the stiffeners in the control surfaces.
 
zilik said:
The rivets in your pictures are definitely overworked, but you knew that. You can back rivet these just like the stiffeners in the control surfaces.
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I'm going to get a back-riveting plate soon, but this doesn't help as I won't be able to back-rivet every rivet. what am I doing wrong?

As you can see the manufactured heads are over-worked and the shop-heads are under-driven. What gives?
 
rivets

Practice, practice. It's all about throttle control. I've set -3 rivets with a 6x gun. That was a quality gun. If yours is either off or full on you need a better gun. At 60psi it certainly should not be uncontrollable.
 
paul mosher said:
Practice, practice. It's all about throttle control. I've set -3 rivets with a 6x gun. That was a quality gun. If yours is either off or full on you need a better gun. At 60psi it certainly should not be uncontrollable.
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so, in closing, I'm just a limp-wristed riveter running under-pressure on my gun :(

im not kidding though, at 60 that thing is EVERYWHERE in a bout a whole 1" diameter. it goes BERSERK
 
Might want

To purchase a bigger rivet gun - 3X comes to mind - get a name brand and you'll never regret it. I buy most of my tools from Cleveland.
 
To keep the gun from jumping around, you might try a layer of maksking tape on the rivet set. I've never used a 2x gun, but it works fine on my 3x. Something else you might try is to find a riveting partner to buck, and you use two hands on the gun; one on the trigger and one to hold the set in place.
 
I'd have someone experienced stop by or take your gun and go visit somebody. Something is definitely goofy. Many rivets, due to location, can be challenging, but those shouldn't be.
 
Echo Tango said:
I'm going to get a back-riveting plate soon, but this doesn't help as I won't be able to back-rivet every rivet. what am I doing wrong?

As you can see the manufactured heads are over-worked and the shop-heads are under-driven. What gives?
Click to expand...

I never had much luck using a 2x gun on AD4 rivets. My thinking is that maybe some rivet guns are better than others, and the 2x I was using wasn't up to snuff.

When I was riveting HP-18 wing spars and their rows of AD4s in heavy 7075-T6 machined channels, I was grateful to have a 5x horseshoe-handle gun on hand. I would count out a dozen hits of its massive hammer and call it good.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
There's a new thread in the Tools forum where someone tried combinations of different brand and style guns and sets. He reported some combinations that were hard to control. Interesting...
 
longranger said:
There's a new thread in the Tools forum where someone tried combinations of different brand and style guns and sets. He reported some combinations that were hard to control. Interesting...
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i can safely say, i don't think ANYONE would be able to control this gun on higher pressure. it's an ATS pro 2x and it doesn't matter how i hold it, on higher pressure it finds a way to start dancing. if i had a helper it might lessen the issue, but i don't.

sounds like i'll be buying a 3x before continuing. ah, another setback :eek:
 
I too was never able to set the -4s with a 2X gun, at least not as well as the 3X. Try using a head that has an rubber O-ring around the outside diameter. Also, get a head that is as short as possible to keep the work up close to the gun. That will help keep it from sliding around. I am not a fan of the flex heads, I find it too easy for them to slide around. 40 PSI with a 3X should be more than enough
 
My guess is your gun just doesn't have enough whack. Not all 2X guns are equal and maybe yours is just wimpy.
 
If you're setting universal head (round head) rivets, it will be harder to control the gun anyway.

Part of the problem is probably the inadequate force from the small gun, and an additional problem is probably the weight (mass) of the gun. Added to that is work hardening of the rivet because it's getting hit so many times. A 3x gun will set a -4 rivet (except the really long ones) within 3-4 seconds, max. It will be easier to control while it's running because of its extra mass. Remember, action/reaction. Instead of slamming the rivet into the bar with enough force to displace the rivet, it's just bouncing off the bar & kicking the gun off the rivet head. Not saying it can't be done; it's just easier to control with more mass in the gun.

If all you have is the 2x, try this (on some scrap): find a way to attach a spare bucking bar to the back of the gun, or hold it there with your gun hand. Obviously, you'd need a rivet partner for this. I bet the extra mass will actually make the gun more controllable, if you can stabilize the mass.

Charlie
 
well, i just ponied up $500 for a 3x gun, tungsten bucking bar, offset rivet sets, rubber flush sets, back-riveting set, in-line regulator and a back riveting plate.

i think i'm good now. :D


now let's just hope it was the equipment and not me :eek:
 
Good Decision!

I am sure you'll be be very happy riveting with your new toys.
I remember way back when a frugal friend of mine tried to use an " air chisel"
to do the riveting on an RV......It reminded me of how you described your rivet set jumping uncontrollably around the rivet head.
The tungsten bucking bar alone is worth its weight in gold as is a quality rivet gun.
Good luck.
 
update: was able to remove the pancaked rivets without any issues. ended up ruining one part that was unrelated to the issue posted. woops!
 
N427EF said:
I am sure you'll be be very happy riveting with your new toys.
I remember way back when a frugal friend of mine tried to use an " air chisel"
to do the riveting on an RV......It reminded me of how you described your rivet set jumping uncontrollably around the rivet head.
The tungsten bucking bar alone is worth its weight in gold as is a quality rivet gun.
Good luck.
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thanks! :D
 
What gun did you get? Im looking to purchase my first and want to get a good one. Let us know your thoughts after you take a few shots with it.
 
pilottangocharlie said:
What gun did you get? Im looking to purchase my first and want to get a good one. Let us know your thoughts after you take a few shots with it.
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my ATS 3x showed up the other day and the trigger feels funny compared to my 2x (not very smooth) and the piston fails to hit about 40% of the time when the trigger is pulled. Was very happy with my 2x but I'm going to send the 3x back. Will probably get the one that was mentioned above by the other VAF'er if the replacement is the same. When it does "engage" it works fine, but it's not acceptable at the moment.
 
If its not firing every time, it sounds like the set is not contacting the piston in the gun. Try a different set, leave the spring off and try it.
 
Bill.Peyton said:
If its not firing every time, it sounds like the set is not contacting the piston in the gun. Try a different set, leave the spring off and try it.
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i'll try this when i get home from work. basically it sounds like the air is bypassing the piston and simply blowing out the exhaust port. trigger pull feel crummy either way... very "sticky." i did try to lube it (both the trigger and piston) to no avail, but i'll try a different rivet set. i'm able to set the -4 rivets with it fine compared to the 2x when it works.
 
Echo Tango said:
i'll try this when i get home from work. basically it sounds like the air is bypassing the piston and simply blowing out the exhaust port. trigger pull feel crummy either way... very "sticky." i did try to lube it (both the trigger and piston) to no avail, but i'll try a different rivet set. i'm able to set the -4 rivets with it fine compared to the 2x when it works.
Click to expand...

What brand of gun are you using? I had a gun do this as well.
 
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