R

rv8_builder

Active Member
After a frustrating session on my first rivets yesterday, all I learnt is how to drill them out. :mad:

While riveting the VS spar and skeleton I noticed that the rivets called for on the plans are usually too long (More than 1.5xD protrusion).

When I hand squeeze the rivets they tend to bend over and I end up with club heads. I ensure that the squeezer is square but it doesn?t help.

Must the rivets always be checked for correct protrusion and trimmed to 1.5xD if necessary or is there a specific reason why Van?s calls for longer rivets in certain areas :confused:

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
 
Rivet Length

I'm building an RV-10, and have almost always found that when a rivet looks too long, then I am about to overlook something. Either I've read the plans wrong, initially, or am forgetting to include a layer/part called for to be riveted. I would call Van's with a specific example, and see what they say.
 
Yes

rv8_builder said:
Must the rivets always be checked for correct protrusion and trimmed to 1.5xD if necessary or is there a specific reason why Van?s calls for longer rivets in certain areas :confused:

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Hi Andre,
The rivets called for in the plans are often wrong. Use a piece of scrap to play around with, drill some holes and practise squeezing differing rivet sizes. Pretty soon you'll be able to see one protruding and you'll know if it's correct.

Bear in mind that as the rivets increase in diameter, you'll need more protrusion than the smaller sizes. I see that you're a mechanical engineer, so it'll come quickly.

Regards,
 
Splitting differences

Think of it this way. In the interests of economy and keeping the cost of the kits down, Van's Aircraft provides the builder with rivets that can be a compromise between the best choice and an acceptable choice for any given situation. For instance, I recently installed weldments on the firewall using the provided AD4-8 rivets that were a bit too long. An AD4-7.5 would have been a better choice. I encountered the same deal with a callout using AD4-5 rivets when an AD4-4.5 would have been a better choice. We really cannot expect Van to provide us with every half length rivet size potentially needed.

Similarily, 99% of all nutplate attachments are almost always better served using NAS1097AD3 rivets. Van's own airplanes make use of the versatile rivet in this application yet it is not provided to the kit builder. Recently, Van's even dropped the NAS1097AD3 rivet from its parts list. Is it a question of cost, procurement, or other business related issues? I just don't know. Van's continues to stock the NAS1097AD4 rivet, quaintly referred to as an "oops" rivet.

If you do not have a rivet cutter, here is an easy way to trim any rivet to any length you want. Using a block of metal or a stackup of metal, its thickness simulating the desired length of the rivet...drill a hole through it and insert the rivet. Then shave the protruding shank of the rivet down until it is flush with the surface of the metal. It only takes a moment. You can trim any rivet to any desired length with a minimum of effort and a maximum of repeatable consistency.
 
The called for rivet lengths, bolt lengths are often wrong. I've noticed on the -10 a number of too short callouts and what the factory used (QB) are too short. Just finished doing the top forward skin and ended up drilling out a bunch the factory installed ones in the upper engine mount pickup to upper longeron and replacing with the proper ones.

Vans already supplies plenty of half length rivets, a couple more sizes and they'd properly cover everything.

If all the holes are drilled correctly, sheets dimpled correctly, the rule of thumb of 1.5 times the rivet diameter protruding usually works well. A rivet gauge sold by the tool houses will show you the correct shape until you can eyeball it.

People who say there are few or no mistakes in the plans are incorrect. On the QBs, be especially vigilant to go through the entire plan set and make sure all steps have been completed at the factory. I've seen some stuff missed on one side or one wing and some really major omissions in a few cases. Wing inspection covers were dimpled incorrectly as were the countersinks for the front row of #6 screws on mine as well. There are some steps which are not in the correct order as well to facilitate easiest assembly.

All in all considering the scope of these kits, Vans does a very good job but you still have to figure out some stuff for yourself.
 
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Rivet cutter

Way back when I started (early 90's) my tool kit came with a cheap rivet length trimming tool. I use it. I find that after priming all parts before assembly the paint adds up and increases the assembled thickness to the next .5 or or more. Way back I also went to the local aircraft supply store and purchased a supply of rivets in .5 steps. This gives you an inventory of 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5...., etc. I also have some #8 length rivets to use for trimming down. It's easier to trim a long rivet instead of trying to shave .5 or a full 1/32nd. I apologize if this is pitifully basic. Just trying to provide input for you.

Brian Vickers, RV4 finishing
 
I'm finishing my -8 tail this week and can attest to MANY too long rivets so far.

My biggest problem was with the stiffeners for the control surfaces.

Don't even bother with the 3.5's, put in 3.0's.

If the rivets go sideways like you describe, try a shorter rivet. It curred my problem immediately.

I too worried it was my technique and not getting "square". When I tried riveting in my c-frame to get perfectly square and they still went sideways I figured it wasn't me.
 
Rivet length problem

Thanks for all the valuable feedback :)

My tool kit came with a rivet cutter and length gauge so I'll try it out over the weekend and squeeze some rivets with the correct protrusion.

Will let you know if this solves my problem. ;)
 
1/2 size rivets

We stock most rivet head styles and diameters in 1/2 sizes as well as full.

usually up to 5.5, some even longer.

Packaged in .25lb packages,
Traceable with manufacturers name and lot# on every package of certified Genuine Aircraft Hardware.

Get several packages of different part numbers, they are not that expansive and will make your building easier. :cool:
 
here's my issue as well

Brian Vickers said:
I find that after priming all parts before assembly the paint adds up and increases the assembled thickness to the next .5 or or more. .

Brian Vickers, RV4 finishing
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i use the rivet cutters instead of the half sizes. can be time consuming though.
 
GAHco said:
We stock most rivet head styles and diameters in 1/2 sizes as well as full.

usually up to 5.5, some even longer.

Packaged in .25lb packages,
Traceable with manufacturers name and lot# on every package of certified Genuine Aircraft Hardware.

Get several packages of different part numbers, they are not that expensive and will make your building easier. :cool:
Click to expand...

Forgot the link, here is the store page.

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.co...ets&menuID=141~142~142~143~143~148~148&id=148

Here is the Tech Info page.

www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/solidrivets.pdf
 
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I try to use the hand rivet squeezers as little as possible. They are more prone to dumping rivets. Use a rivet gun and bucking bar and you will find it is very easy to make a good shop head even if the rivet is .5 too long. As far as using 3-3.5 in the skin stiffeners that's all I have ever used and never dumped one yet.
 
I can't imagine cutting all those rivets for the stiffeners (partly because I've never cut a rivet down ;) )

When I bought my 3.0's from ACS I think I got a whole pound as I had no idea how many that would be and it was cheap enough to make sure I didn't run low. Holy **** it must be 2000 or more!!!!!! Buy a 1/4 pound and you'll be plenty happy.

PS, next time I'll be sure to get'em from GAHCo ;)
 
Thanks Grant.

grantcarruthers said:
I can't imagine cutting all those rivets for the stiffeners (partly because I've never cut a rivet down ;) )

When I bought my 3.0's from ACS I think I got a whole pound as I had no idea how many that would be and it was cheap enough to make sure I didn't run low. Holy **** it must be 2000 or more!!!!!! Buy a 1/4 pound and you'll be plenty happy.

PS, next time I'll be sure to get'em from GAHCo ;)
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Thanks for the promotion

I will make you all jealous, when I need a different size, my warehouse is less than a 1 mile drive. On nice days I take a bike ;)

I also have a 5 gallon water bottle full of unused rivets that were overage from the 1/4# increments we package. (if you like digging) :p

I am going home, I quit! I will be back on sometime Sunday, I have some promotions to release.

Have the good weekend.
 
Thanks guys,

I trimmed the rivets to the correct length and squeezed them without a problem.

I finished riveting the vertical stabilizer on Sunday and it looks great :D

Andre
South Africa
RV8 Empennage
 
Rick6a said:
Recently, Van's even dropped the NAS1097AD3 rivet from its parts list. Is it a question of cost, procurement, or other business related issues? I just don't know. Van's continues to stock the NAS1097AD4 rivet, quaintly referred to as an "oops" rivet.
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Just got some NAS1097AD3s from Van's. They were not in the parts list but I had to request them... and because I couldn't get them from the webstore, now my balance isn't zero. :rolleyes:
 
Gil to the rescue

rv8_builder said:
After a frustrating session on my first rivets yesterday, all I learnt is how to drill them out. :mad:
Click to expand...

One of the first lessons we got from Gil Alexander was how to drill rivets OUT. It was a good lesson.

Second lesson is that Spruce will sell rivets down to .13 pound. For mere pennies we now have virtually every size we will ever need and thanks to my wife who visits the DOLLAR STORE, we have small bins to place them in.
 
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