[swixtt]

hey guys,
we just got our first rivets in our RV9 on the weekend... things went pretty good. we got a rivet gauge from Planetools and have been using that to test them but when measure the diameter on the rivet we get it pretty much snug to the gauge, but usually the depth measurement isn't quite right. we are making sure the correct rivet length is used.
what is most critical when using the gauge, diameter or depth.?

also, our squeezer isn't adjustable so we are using washers,etc. which is fine, but we couldn't get a complete squeeze on a few that we had to go back and hit again with the hand squeezer. how many different washer sets have you used? i just have a combo of thin and thick and use that to dial it in. sometimes though, they aren't thin enough.

anyway, thanks for reading.

 

[terrykohler]

I wouldn't obsess too much over this. Ideally, the rivet shank should stick out 1.5 to 2.0 diameters before upsetting. More than 2 diameters and the column will buckle rather than upset. Less than 1.5 and you don't have enough material for a good shop head. The gage gives you a lot of tolerance as far as the formed head. As long as you're coming close to the gage diameter, you're good. Most important is to use the proper length rivet.
Terry, CFI
RV9A, N323TP

 

[kbehrent]

hey guys,
...
also, our squeezer isn't adjustable so we are using washers,etc......
...
anyway, thanks for reading.

Most squeezers can be made adjustable by replacing the fixed set holder with an adjustable one. I bought all my tools from Avery (www.averytools.com) and they do sell the adjustable set holder. If your squeezer won't accept one, buy a squeezer that supports it. You just got started...don't go cheap on a squeezer. You have way way too many rivets & dimples to squeeze!!! While your at it, check out a pneumatic squeezer. Best money I ever spent in a tool along with a pneumatic cleco plyers!

 

[miyu1975]

I bought my set from planetools too and it included an adjustable arm. Check your tool box. I did not know what it was for a while...til I asked a question here and the light bulb went on...ah that is what that thing is.

 

[swixtt]

I bought my set from planetools too and it included an adjustable arm. Check your tool box. I did not know what it was for a while...til I asked a question here and the light bulb went on...ah that is what that thing is.

no i just bought a few things from them, not the entire kit so it didn't come with it. he just sent me a note and said it's about $60 for adjustable attachment.
i'm just going to find a few thinner washers i think!

thanks for the posts guys and not flaming me on it!! i was just wondering whether we should be using the diameter side more for the rivet guage or the depth. to me they look correct based on diameter and not the depth... but what the heck do i know,i've never built an airplane before!

 

[Adam Oke]

no i just bought a few things from them, not the entire kit so it didn't come with it. he just sent me a note and said it's about $60 for adjustable attachment.
i'm just going to find a few thinner washers i think!

I am more of a rookie than you so take my word for what it's worth (money back guarantee) but that adjustable attachment is awesome!

I was using the washers for the first practice kit. What a pain. So I searched the forum if there was a better way. Sure enough I had already bought the adjustable attachment from Ishams. Lovin it already.

 

[RScott]

Get the adjustable set holder--you'll be glad you did. You'll be changing settings hundreds of times.

Here is a time setting suggestion, however. When you get the washer combo right for a particular rivet size, write that combo down so you don't have to experiment again. Same thing goes for the adjustable set holder, after you get it adjusted right, run the set holder all the way to the top (closed position, snug fit), counting the turns as you do so. Write down the number of turns & when you use that size rivet again, run the set holder all the way up and back off the 3 of turns you wrote down.

 

[swixtt]

I am more of a rookie than you so take my word for what it's worth (money back guarantee) but that adjustable attachment is awesome!

I was using the washers for the first practice kit. What a pain. So I searched the forum if there was a better way. Sure enough I had already bought the adjustable attachment from Ishams. Lovin it already.

thanks adam,
did you get their complete kit with pneumatic squeezer,etc.?
i'll have a look on their site. the washers aren't too bad, i've pretty much know in my head how many washers i need for what rivet so far. but you are right, can't quite dial it in with them yet.
have you got your 8 emp on the way yet?

 

[Adam Oke]

Get the adjustable set holder--you'll be glad you did. You'll be changing settings hundreds of times.

Here is a time setting suggestion, however. When you get the washer combo right for a particular rivet size, write that combo down so you don't have to experiment again. Same thing goes for the adjustable set holder, after you get it adjusted right, run the set holder all the way to the top (closed position, snug fit), counting the turns as you do so. Write down the number of turns & when you use that size rivet again, run the set holder all the way up and back off the 3 of turns you wrote down.

I always wondered ... does that not vary with metal thickness? Thus it would be a guideline for setting the first rivet, gauging it appropriately, then making minor adjustments?

 

[swixtt]

I always wondered ... does that not vary with metal thickness? Thus it would be a guideline for setting the first rivet, gauging it appropriately, then making minor adjustments?

that's why it's key to use the Correct rivet length relative to the thickness of the material you are working on. just like the guy a couple above said in the post.

 

[llavalle]

...but when measure the diameter on the rivet we get it pretty much snug to the gauge, but usually the depth measurement isn't quite right.

Are you sure you are using the gauge properly?

The hole in the gauge should fit snugly to the rivet head. Then, using the other side, the 2 small tabs must not touch (or just touch)the surface. If the 2 tabs do not touch the surface, you're fine too. If the rivet is too long, it will bend...


The goal is to have a big enough head without being too flat. If the head is big enough and the center between the tab is not touching the end of the rivet, the rivet was not long enough.

 

[Adam Oke]

thanks adam,
did you get their complete kit with pneumatic squeezer,etc.?
i'll have a look on their site. the washers aren't too bad, i've pretty much know in my head how many washers i need for what rivet so far. but you are right, can't quite dial it in with them yet.
have you got your 8 emp on the way yet?

Yes sir. Got the entire kit with all the bells and whistles. A few more cheques to come in and the 8 emp will be ordered. Hidden fees from FedEx, more brokerage than I expected, taxes on taxes, workbenches, and more tools .... a dent in the bank a little larger than expected Ah the beauty of poor pilot syndrome.

 

[llavalle]

a dent in the bank a little larger than expected

Same here... just made a list of the total cost in canadian dollars... I'm at $8010 right now... this includes the practice kit, tools, the empennage kit, shop preparation, shipping, brokerage and taxes...

i.e. Empennage kit : paid $1618 US + $193 US shipping
With the exchange rate and the 1.8% visa fee for currency exchange, that becomes : $2067.96 + $247.04. Add $10 brokerage fees and the taxes (7.5% + 5%.. here in quebec) $265.47.

Grand total : $2590.49... I just calculated an estimated Wing Kit cost. I got just short of $10k. outch!

 

[swixtt]

Are you sure you are using the gauge properly?

The hole in the gauge should fit snugly to the rivet head. Then, using the other side, the 2 small tabs must not touch (or just touch)the surface. If the 2 tabs do not touch the surface, you're fine too. If the rivet is too long, it will bend...


The goal is to have a big enough head without being too flat. If the head is big enough and the center between the tab is not touching the end of the rivet, the rivet was not long enough.

i think we are.
get a snug fit on the hole in the gauge but more or less what you described in the second paragraph.

 

[swixtt]

Yes sir. Got the entire kit with all the bells and whistles. A few more cheques to come in and the 8 emp will be ordered. Hidden fees from FedEx, more brokerage than I expected, taxes on taxes, workbenches, and more tools .... a dent in the bank a little larger than expected Ah the beauty of poor pilot syndrome.[/QUOTE

Fedex is brutal hear in canada. we are luck to live close enough to the border and get things shipped to montana, drive down and pick it up! Costs us an extra $6 to handle it!

my buddy ordered some stuff a month ago from avery, no sign of it yet.? he got his shipped to his house though, so no wonder....takes forever to cross the cross over.

 

[lorne green]

Hey Adam, this has nothing to do with rivets but...

For future purchases, try finding a freight forwarder in Michigan and pick it up from them. Then it would only cost you the pst, gst, gas and your time. As you know there is no duty or aircraft parts or tools. The brokerage fees FedEx charges are steep, and sometimes a surprise (read shock).
regards

 

[llavalle]

For future purchases, try finding a freight forwarder in Michigan and pick it up from them. Then it would only cost you the pst, gst, gas and your time. As you know there is no duty or aircraft parts or tools. The brokerage fees FedEx charges are steep, and sometimes a surprise (read shock).
regards

Or simply don't use Fed EX Ground. If you use FedEx air (any FedEX Internationnal service), brokerage fees will only be $10. Shipping will cost a bit more but you'll get your stuff really quick!

see : http://fedex.com/us/services/intl/economy.html

The key service here is "Door-to-door, customs-cleared service."

 

[JonJay]

Guages are fine as you learn... but..

there are places you simply can not get the guage on. I have used one sparingly unitl I learned. If you take a finger and press it against the shop head it will leave a very nice and accurate replication of the rivet in your finger, measure with calipers and make sure you are within specs.
You will get used to to look and feel of a properly set rivet very quickly. This comes in handy when you are riveting blind.
This assumes you have the right rivet length to start with.
I do not remember the specific tolerances allowed for the shop head, but they are huge. Perhaps someone can dig them up in this archive.

 

[rzbill]

Go - No/Go

The hole in the gauge should fit snugly to the rivet head.

It is my understanding that rivet gages are of a go - no/go design.
This means that a finished shop head will NOT fit into the hole in the gage. Similarly, the "bridge" of the head height gage will not pass over the finished shop head when the tabs are held against the sheet surface.
The gages are conservative, certainly, but the point is about use of this type of gage rather than a discussion of the dimensions used for the gage.
Also, please realise that the shop head height gage is 99% waste of time on the back side of a dimpled hole since the dimple height affects the measurement.

As mentioned in an earlier thread, the gages won't fit in some places. Calipers work for most of those if you are rusty at "eyeballing" a good shop head.

 

[az_gila]

The tolerances are...

....... measure with calipers and make sure you are within specs.
You will get used to to look and feel of a properly set rivet very quickly. ......
This assumes you have the right rivet length to start with.
I do not remember the specific tolerances allowed for the shop head, but they are huge.
Perhaps someone can dig them up in this archive.

...large, and the rivet gauge you have is not really a go/no go gauge.

It is a measure of the "perfect" 1.5D diam. by 0.5D high shop head. Aim for that dimension, but use these specification numbers to define a reject rivet.
The tolerance is large, so don't replace/rework a rivet that falls inside the spec. range

...from my old web site, copied into PDF format by Dan C.

http://www.rvproject.com/MIL-R-47196A_MI.pdf

 

[llavalle]

It is my understanding that rivet gages are of a go - no/go design.

That's what I thought too, before measuring the hole in the gauge. In my case (avery gauge) it is slightly smaller than 1.5D. Than means if a rivet is exactly at 1.5D, it will not fit in the gauge.

 

[az_gila]

It is not...

That's what I thought too, before measuring the hole in the gauge. In my case (avery gauge) it is slightly smaller than 1.5D. Than means if a rivet is exactly at 1.5D, it will not fit in the gauge.

..a real go/no go gauge.

Since the specification for minimum driven head diameter is actually 1.3 D, a true go/no go gauge would have a 0.163 hole in it for a 1/8 rivet. If a driven rivet head fit into a 0.163 hole it would be a "no go".

This is a between a #19 and a #20 drill size.

What size is the hole in your -4 rivet gauge?

 

[rzbill]

True enough Gil

Now that we have moved into dimensional analysis of the gages, I agree totally with you Gil. The gage hole is too big to be a true go-no/go gage.

However, I do find that the gage is close enough to be used that way for most rivets. 99% of the time, there is enough shop head volume (for my gage anyway) to definitely not fit in the hole and also not be to short per the height gage.

I just wanted to make the point about the diameter fit. Some people may not go to the trouble of measuring a finished shop head with calipers when the head DOES fit in the gage hole, but is still good per the spec you noted.
This group was my target audience. If a builder goes to the trouble of acurately measuring some shop heads vs the gage, good on them. It will make them a better and more knowledgable builder.

No flames intended Philippe, just trying to promote safety. I see you have already analyzed the gage dimensions.

 

[llavalle]

No flames intended Philippe, just trying to promote safety. I see you have already analyzed the gage dimensions.

No problems No flames taken.

What I really meant to say is : it's not because the rivet is loose in the gauge... or that the gauge does not fit over it, that the rivet is bad.

As for the gauge size, I can't remember right now, I'll measure it tonight and get you back on this.

 

[llavalle]

As for the gauge size, I can't remember right now, I'll measure it tonight and get you back on this.

Alright, just measured the hole in the 3/32 and 1/8 gauge.

3/32 Hole : .1375
1/8 Hole : .1865

These were taken with a digital caliper...take the 4th digit with a grain of salt

3/32 = 0.09375 * 1.5 = 0.140625
1/8 = 0.125 * 1.5 = 0.1875

As you can see, a "perfectly" squeezed rivet, at 1.5D will not fit at all in the 3/32 or the 1/8 gauge(well.. my gauges). This means that a a rivet that is loose in the gauge can still be as good(well, withing tolerances) as one that does not fit.