[Geico266]

After talking to Unison at OSH '08 I bought a Slick kit from AC Spruce (2 mags, 2 harnesses, & 8 fine wire plugs) to replace 2 worn out Bendix mags on my -3. I also had to pay a $300 core charge, and I get $250 rebate from Unison. So far, so good.

After I returned the cores I get a call from AC Spruce saying I would not be getting the core charge or the rebate because I did not include the old harnesses. I threw them out! No where did it ask for the harnesses back. I looked on the web site, looked through all of the paperwork, I called to get an RMA from Spruce for the cores and they did not mention the harnesses, and looked at Unison's Application chart. No where did it say they needed the harnesses too. No mention of returning the harnesses!

After 5 days of arguing about at least getting the core charge refunded I called Joe at Unison who within 1 NY second said I would be getting the core charge, AND rebate. They toss all of the harnesses anyway. Joe said; I can't believe Spruce is saying that." Neither could I!

I then called AC Spruce back to give them the word about what Joe said and the said they could not do that! Well, after I talked to the manager of customer service they agreed they could. I then get a call from the AC Spruce web master saying it was his fault that the rebate / core requirements were not on the website.

I have used AC Spruce for 10 years and have never had a bad experience. Aircraft Spruce did make it good, but only after 5 days of constant faxes, phone calls, and e-mails. I am very disappointed in this situation and will be exploring alternatives for my aircraft parts.

 

[Mel]

That is VERY unusual!

I've been dealing with Aircraft Spruce for over 25 years and never had a problem. They have always been very accommodating.

 

[Mitch757]

Returning Ignition Wires with Mags

Hi Larry,

I bought the Slick upgrade for my RV-4 and was told by Mattituck when I purchased them to send in the wires with the mags.

Mitch Garner
RV-4 flying

 

[L.Adamson]

10 years of good experience, and 5 days of bad....

You have to weigh it out....

Personally, I'm now up to 14 years of excellenct service with Aircraft Spruce.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[tmbg]

I've had lots of good luck with spruce when I deal locally with the guys in Peachtree City...

I bought a starter from them for my cherokee, installed it, and it turned itself into lots of tiny bits inside the first two blades it pulled through. I immediately pulled it and returned it.

Couple weeks later, the people out in Corona CHARGED MY CREDIT CARD $600 for the starter. Turns out, when I returned it and the guys at the desk in P'tree City filled out the RMA paperwork, they didn't put any times down for installed/removed/in service. Seemed kinda silly to me, since the time in and out was the same, and time in service was 0, but they denied the RMA because of it.

Not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, and I got it straightened out, but I was VERY upset that they charged my card without my knowledge.

 

[flybill7]

Aircraft Spruce

Far too many dealings with Aircraft Spruce over the last 13 years to count. Nothing but good experiences. Just type what I need in the web order page. Three days later it shows up. Sweet!

 

[rv6ejguy]

Not All Roses Here Either

I've ordered dozens of times over the years and had a couple minor problems which were fixed right away at their expense. Generally great service. A couple years ago however, a friend here ordered some 1/4 inch 4130 plate from ACS. What he got was a twisted and bent mess which looked like some trucks drove over it- completely unusable. The box was mint BTW so they shipped it like this.

He phoned them up to complain and was told they would never ship something like that out and that HE must have bent it! He was really mad at this attitude but they wouldn't budge. He never ordered from ACS again and I stopped buying from them as well if I had any other choices.

To ACS and other companies out there- no matter how good your customer service is, be consistent and treat everyone the same. This one case which would have cost them maybe $100 to rectify ended up costing them thousands of dollars to date and probably tens of thousands more over the next 20 years. This sort of nonsense just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. It is just stupid business practice to treat customers like this.

 

[Geico266]

10 years of good experience, and 5 days of bad....

You have to weigh it out....

L.Adamson --- RV6A

Very true, but you would think the 10 years would account for something. I was treated like a red headed step child. (No offense to anyone with red hair. )

Hi Larry,

I bought the Slick upgrade for my RV-4 and was told by Mattituck when I purchased them to send in the wires with the mags.

Mitch Garner
RV-4 flying

All I would have needed is directions and I would have sent them back. It was an honest mistake that turned into a bad deal.

To ACS and other companies out there- no matter how good your customer service is, be consistent and treat everyone the same. This one case which would have cost them maybe $100 to rectify ended up costing them thousands of dollars to date and probably tens of thousands more over the next 20 years. This sort of nonsense just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. It is just stupid business practice to treat customers like this.

AMEN!

 

[Gary Bricker]

Gary Bricker

I work for a mfg that ships products all over the world and I know for a fact the UPS/FedEX and others rebox after damage. This damaged product should have been handled with the carrier by both the shipper and the receiver.

 

[rv6ejguy]

I work for a mfg that ships products all over the world and I know for a fact the UPS/FedEX and others rebox after damage. This damaged product should have been handled with the carrier by both the shipper and the receiver.

Nope, the box was mint and covered with ACS tape and packaged as per usual (very well). Anyway how would Fedex bend a sheet of 1/4 inch 4130?

I ship stuff all over the world too via Fedex and this had nothing to do with them. Whoever "sheared" this piece of steel at ASC didn't care and didn't do it right. Maybe they tried cutting it with the aluminum shear and just bent the snot out of it. You can damage a lot of stuff in shipping but 4130 plate isn't one of them. ACS must think customers have nothing better to do with their lives than make stories up and give them grief. Then customer service, who has always been awesome to deal with I might ad, was just plain ornery and uncooperative in this case.

 

[n8zg]

AC$ - No, thank you.

Larry, you're not alone.

I wouldn't buy a coke out of a machine in the parking lot from AC$ if I could get it somewhere else.

They lost my business over a HazMat charge that I asked about BEFORE I place an order. After many calls and hours on hold, I'm still waiting to be refunded the HazMat charge that I was assured did not apply and would not appear.

I keep seeing stories where our fellow builders have been abused in one way or another, and climbed the chain all the way to the guy who owns the place (Jim?) who finally sets things right. I'll suggest that's inexcusable. ANYBODY who is in a position to answer the phone and deal with customers ought to have the authority and the *directive* to fix whatever problem is laid before them.

I just wonder how much business I've scattered to other places cuz the folks at AC$ wound me up over $30.

 

[apatti]

Accounting systems are very good at tracking and reporting costs. Unfortunately, these systems don't track "lost" sales due to poor customer service. So, the cost are very visible while the lost revenues are not. Back in 1980, W. Edwards Deming (the great quality guru), warned executives against management by numbers alone without any thought given to the information that may be needed but is unknown or hidden.

 

[L.Adamson]

I'M CONFUSED....



First, you wanted to fire Van's office personal for refunding 54 cents with a 59 cent postage........

and now you create the headline topic of "Disappointing Customer Service" in regards to Aircraft Spruce.

So, at what point............is the customer service considered as positive? Is the glass always half empty, or is it ever half full?

It was obvious that most of Van's customers thought that the office staff did well; and being fired for their actions, was out of the question. It's also obvious that thousands of Aircraft Spruce customers are more than happy with Spruces service. I know that I am!

Just put me on the happy list with all those tens of thousands of content customers, and I will realize that not every thing's going to go perfect every time. Problem is, all those happy customers seldom write about it, and the dissatisfied always grab the headlines.

I'm just the type of guy that would say I've had well over a decade of exceptional service from Aircraft Spruce, and they seemed to have screwed up. But I wouldn't make a big deal about it, because the positive has far out weighed the negative. But then my glass is half full. I am an optimist.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[Geico266]

First, you wanted to fire Van's office personal for refunding 54 cents with a 59 cent postage........

and now you create the headline topic of "Disappointing Customer Service" in regards to Aircraft Spruce.

So, at what point............is the customer service considered as positive? Is the glass always half empty, or is it ever half full?

RV6A

Geeez! I changed my mind on the Van's gal! I gave her a raise!

All I wanted with ACS is MY $300 back for a core charge. It took me 6 days, over 3.5 hours on the phone, 6 faxes, and a call to Unison to get something that should have been automatic! Unison felt so bad they gave me the $250 rebate for the harnesses cause ACS did NOT have the requirement of returning the harnesses on their web site.

Excuuuuuuuse me!



This is why I HATE rebates, core charges, lifetime warranties, life time replacement, ect, ect, ect. It all a scam in hopes that 90% of consumers NEVER follow though or give up.

 

[Geico266]

Accounting systems are very good at tracking and reporting costs. Unfortunately, these systems don't track "lost" sales due to poor customer service. So, the cost are very visible while the lost revenues are not. Back in 1980, W. Edwards Deming (the great quality guru), warned executives against management by numbers alone without any thought given to the information that may be needed but is unknown or hidden.

A very wize observation.

 

[dmaib]

I have had nothing but outstanding service from Spruce for the past 2 1/2 years. They have been extremely accommodating and flexible on returns. I have been to the Corona "will call" counter several times and always find friendly, knowledgeable and helpful people. The service with online orders or telephone orders has been just as good.
I recently had to return a pretty expensive part that I had purchased almost a year ago and had never installed. Not only were they agreeable about taking it back and giving me credit for it, I accidentally put an important piece of hardware into the box with the part when I packed it up to send back. I called Spruce when I realized what I had done. Claudia, at the Corona office, watched for the box and when it showed up, she got the part out of box and got it back to me at no charge.
I go out of my way to do business with Spruce, since they seem to go out of their way to give great customer service.

 

[yakdriver]

I had a problem with Unison on my mags. Brand new mags and when I went to start the engine it would pop every once in a while but not fire. My AI said it acted like the left mag was 180 off internally. Called Unison and they said no problem just send the mag in and we should get it back to you in two to three weeks. The airplane is ready for the first flight ,insuance paid and now they want to make me wait another three weeks!. My AI popped the mag apart which voids the warranty and sure enough it was 180 off from the factory. Put it back on the airplane and it started first blade. Called Unison to let them know of the problem and they acted if they could care less. Ran the engine three times and on the third run the right mag died. AI pulled it apart and found a dead condenser. Called Unison and again they said send it in and we'll replace the condenser and should only take about three weeks. Asked if they could just send a condenser and they said no way so I ordered one next day from Chief and havn't had a problem in 70hrs. You would think that they would want to help out more with a customer that got two brand new mags and both had problems. The people I talked too at Unison all seemed indifferent to my problem. I was always very polite in my dealings with them and still got kinda blown off. Don

 

[Webb]

50 invoices

50 invoices, 1 issue. That's 98%. The one issue took 2 phone calls and was corrected.

Would I use them again? Absolutely.

Your post is not without merit. It should remind us to make sure to ask if there are any special issues when making a return so we don't have to go through what you did.

 

[RatMan]

after 5 days of constant faxes, phone calls, and e-mails. I am very disappointed in this situation and will be exploring alternatives for my aircraft parts.

Hey Larry, got a suggestion for you. Give em another chance, if you feel you're getting a bum deal, go to the top.

Several years ago while building another plane I had a problem getting a response from a customer service rep about some parts I had ordered and not received. Seems she was totally blowing me off.

Well, I had had enough. I dropped an email to Jim Irwin and within hours I had a response from him and the problem was solved. I had doubted that he actually read and responded to emails sent to his address but I was assured that Jim himself had taken care of the issue personally.

The rep called me and explained that she in fact had been responding to my messages each and every time but didn't know why I had not received them. Turns out, stupid AOL spam filter had blocked me from seeing them.

Point is, Jim Irwin is a stand up guy in my book. His company is huge and I'm sure they deal with thousands of orders around the world every day. Sure they drop the ball sometimes but they really try to make it right. If you're really upset enough to write them off, I would suggest dropping him a line and give him a chance to make it right. You can find his address here http://http://www.aircraftspruce.com/prez2005.php.

By the way, last year a few of us RV builders had an issue with AN fittings sold by ACS. ACS customer support joined this group and answered questions we had directly. Later, Mr Irwin took the time to send a letter to Doug explaining the issue himself. Now for a CEO to take the time to address the RV builders really says he cares about us and his customer service. They've also supported at least one group buy for the RV community as well.

They supported me as an individual builder and they recognize and respect the RV community as well.

if you like, you can see his letter here-->Jim Irwin response.

 

[rv6ejguy]

I agree that all people answering the phone should have the authority to make things right, why should you have to go to the top?

Why should customers have to go to such lengths to get satisfaction over something so simple?

I do believe that Jim will make things right but surely his time would be better spent not dealing with things like this. Tell his CS people to just make it right.

My dealings with ACS have been at least 95% positive in the past and I still buy small hardware things from them because they are convenient.

The point of all this is we do have other choices and when something goes this sour you are simply not inclined to go back there when you can get the same products elsewhere. Granted ACS has a LOT of stuff and it's easy to order online and service is generally good and it is harder to find the full selection elsewhere but I will go somewhere else to give the small guy some business too. Competition is a good thing.

Some companies we deal with NEVER let you down and some are just the worse, all the time. I had an appalling experience with a turbo company here this Spring even going right to the owner who dissed me and said too bad. Nice attitude. They lied repeatedly to me and screwed up every part of the order. My customer was mad at me which really made me mad because it was all their fault. I switched to a new supplier who is absolutely the best I have ever dealt with in 25 years of business. I called the main distributor and told them how bad the first guys were- they don't deserve anyone's business.

I can think of companies like David Clark who have such an awesome customer care rep so I buy their products. Good customer care can be part of your business plan and it will pay huge dividends over time. It should be entrenched in employees all the way down the line. Not that hard to do.

Time is money and I don't like anyone to waste my time over stuff like this. Same with my customers phoning me for something- yep, it's usually not our fault but I'll give them a new part anyway. They stay happy, buy again or tell their friends how great we are to deal with and then they buy something. WOM is still the best advertising and good customer service every time keeps the WOM good rather than bad. Bad word spreads a lot faster than good word.

 

[apatti]

I agree that all people answering the phone should have the authority to make things right, why should you have to go to the top?

Why should customers have to go to such lengths to get satisfaction over something so simple?

Good article on this concept from 1989 Harvard Business Review

My Employees Are My Service Guarantee
Publication Date: Jul 1, 1989
Author(s): Timothy W. Firnstahl
Type: Harvard Business Review Article

Firnstahl owns (owned?) a chain of restaurants. He empowers everyone all the way down to the bus boy to do anything necessary to make a customer happy.

At the Ritz Carlton (winner of the Baldridge award multiple times) even the maids can spend up to $2500 (I have heard different numbers here at different times) without management permission if they feel it is necessary to make a customer happy. And, BTW, it works both ways there. One of my students told me about an incident at the Ritz once where a guest became very irate with a Ritz associate because of some problem. The guy was yelling and screaming obscenities. The manager came over and calmed the guest down and admitted they had made a mistake. He made an offer to correct the problem. He asked "Will that make you happy?" The guest said "Yes." The manager then said "Good. And now sir, I am going to have to ask you to leave. I will get you a room at another hotel of your choice and pay for it. We'll have your things moved to that room for you. However, you may not stay here. Our motto is that we are ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen. And you have not behaved as a gentleman. I cannot allow you to treat members of my staff the way you did." There is an old saying in customer service... "Treat your employees the way you want them to treat your customer."

Sorry if too far off topic.

 

[L.Adamson]

I agree that all people answering the phone should have the authority to make things right, why should you have to go to the top?

In this day and age, some customers simply are jerks. Some customers have fraudulent intent from the very beginning.

Using the old "golden rule" of the "customer is always right"..............has to be watched with a keen eye these days. Today's "customer" will have no problem returning an expensive camera or clothes that they used for a lavish wedding the night before.

The above statements have nothing to do with the particulars of this thread..................however, when dealing with products that cost a sizable sum, a business just can't let anyone decide "monetary" issues. To do so, would be foolish.

L.Adamson

 

[rv6ejguy]

In this day and age, some customers simply are jerks. Some customers have fraudulent intent from the very beginning.

Using the old "golden rule" of the "customer is always right"..............has to be watched with a keen eye these days. Today's "customer" will have no problem returning an expensive camera or clothes that they used for a lavish wedding the night before.

The above statements have nothing to do with the particulars of this thread..................however, when dealing with products that cost a sizable sum, a business just can't let anyone decide "monetary" issues. To do so, would be foolish.

L.Adamson

I love your story Tony.

I've had a few jerk customers in my time and owned all my businesses for the last 28 years. I even give the jerks their money back. (Some of them know they are jerks and a few of those are knowingly trying to get something for free they don't deserve). When you do this, it is pretty hard for even these customers to bad mouth you.

I find the vast majority of my customers are fair and easy to deal with so for the .2 percent who aren't, I don't work up a sweat. Do I like refunding money to people like this? Nope, but the next day I forget about it and move on.

Again, you cannot imagine the damage even one bad customer experience can do these days with the internet and it amazes me that some companies spend millions on advertising on the front end and lose millions out the back end by losing good, existing clients over bad service or refund policies. That is stupid business. It is way easier to keep an existing client than trying to find a new one and a lot cheaper.

I look back to a VAF member who had a very bad engine experience and posted his woes here a few months back. Money was finally refunded when the vendor heard what was posted here. I've done the same thing many times myself when someone has ripped me off.

I treat clients how I'd like to be treated. It is such a simple concept.

 

[Geico266]

Again, you cannot imagine the damage even one bad customer experience can do these days with the internet and it amazes me that some companies spend millions on advertising on the front end and lose millions out the back end by losing good, existing clients over bad service or refund policies. That is stupid business. It is way easier to keep an existing client than trying to find a new one and a lot cheaper.

Amen.

All I wanted was MY core charge back! It was MY MONEY, not theirs! The rebate I got was icing on the cake.

Now I've been getting a call every day from AC Spruce asking if there is any thing they can do satisfy me as a customer. "Sure", I say give me my time back. Refund the time it took for me to get ACS to see they were wronmg in deneighing my core charge.

We are not getting any younger. I have always looked at time as my most precious resource. I can't buy more time, I can't wish I had more time. All I can do is patronize compaies that VALUE my time. The hours I spent getting my money back are gone for ever.

Aircraft Spruce is good when you point, click, order, and parts show up in a few days. Sweet! But it is the exception order; core charge, refunds, credits, rebates, the exceptions to the "normal" orders that is the real measure of a company's customer service. Even when I was assured by the customer service manager that my $300 credit would be issued on Tuesday, it was not issued until Wednesday and only after I called again to ask what the hold up was. Little thing? Maybe, but when someone gives me their word and it doesn't happen what am I to think? The only conclusion I can come to is they will say anything to get me to go away. That is NOT customer service.

Remember, I'm not saying ACS is a bad vendor, not at all. I'm just disappointed with the service I received on one order.

Life is short, fly while you can. Lets move on.

 

[lcnmrv8r]

Trying to remain objective

I may raise the ire of a few with this post but I think a point should be raised.

Regarding Cores:
It should be assumed that when you buy something with a core charge you should return exactly the same as what you received unless otherwise noted.

In this case, if that would have been done, this situation probably would not have occurred. All of the customer service bashing wouldn't have happened, and all of the time spent, both dealing with ACS and with this thread, could have been spent more productively.

Now go flying and have a great weekend!

 

[Geico266]

Regarding Cores:
It should be assumed that when you buy something with a core charge you should return exactly the same as what you received unless otherwise noted.

In this case, if that would have been done, this situation probably would not have occurred. All of the customer service bashing wouldn't have happened, and all of the time spent, both dealing with ACS and with this thread, could have been spent more productively.

Then why didn't they want the 8 old spark plugs returned? How am I suppose to know this when Unison's core policy (Page 0-3, 1st paragraph) does NOT require harnesses to be returned? The return of the harnesses was for a Unison rebate, not the core charge. You are getting confused as Aircraft Spruce was.

We can agree to let's go flying!

 

[Aircraft Spruce Info]

Re: Aircraft Spruce

A good customer of ours, Larry, recently posted a complaint about Aircraft Spruce's service on the return of two magneto cores for credit. Our Customer Service Rep, who is new to the company, apparently became confused and indicated that Larry had to return his old harness to receive the core credit. This is absolutely not true, as the core credit is refunded by Aircraft Spruce when cores are returned, and the rebate on returned harnesses is handled direct by Unison. We handle hundreds of cores per month, and customers are always promptly credited for returned cores. We have already credited Larry the full $300 for the returned cores, and Unison was kind enough to allow the rebate on the harnesses even though the harnesses cannot be returned.

We apologize for the incorrect information being given to Larry on the phone and for the aggravation it caused. We appreciate the business we received from all RV builders and assure you that we will NEVER refuse to issue full credit on return of acceptable cores.

Aircraft Spruce & Specialty Co.

 

[Geico266]

Apology accepted. We all make mistakes. It's how they are handled that makes the difference.