They have to follow the plan they submitted a while back and was approved today under the watchcare of the trustees.I have not followed the proceedings. Can someone summarize how Vans can move forward from this point on? Thanks.
I wouldn’t make any assumptions on how Van made his money. Might have been real estate, inheritance, wise investments, who knows…..The other is that this has been a profitable business. Van was able to supply loans totaling $10.65 million.
Dave
Agreed. Also it may have been a profitable business historically but it's not the same business anymore. Up until the last several years a middle class income could build and own an RV. With the increased costs of engines, props, hardware, paint, kits, hangars, fuel, housing, food, and everything else, that's just not realistic anymore. Is there enough increased margin in the new kit prices to cover the reduction in available market? Who knows? It might work out great, it might not.I wouldn’t make any assumptions on how Van made his money. Might have been real estate, inheritance, wise investments, who knows…..
What reduction in market? Remember, it was at least partially Vans attempt at supplying a rapidly expanding market that got them into this mess in the first place. Prices have gone up, yes - but I don't see anything that looks like a market reduction.Is there enough increased margin in the new kit prices to cover the reduction in available market? Who knows? It might work out great, it might not.
What reduction in market? Remember, it was at least partially Vans attempt at supplying a rapidly expanding market that got them into this mess in the first place. Prices have gone up, yes - but I don't see anything that looks like a market reduction.
Relative to Vans orders, I wonder what MOSAIC will do (...) With the introduction of higher performance, more capable aircraft in the LSA category, will the equation shift away from Vans? Will the build/buy calculus get close enough...
AeroEngineer said "(1) This is debatable. And (2) Even if he's right and fewer people could afford to build an RV in 2020 than in 1990-2000". I am right, I can't afford to build one now. Was hoping to start one next summer but the latest increases just won't allow. Small sample I know, but it is a reduction of one. And I'm confident I'm not alone. And before ya'll jump on the "it can be done cheaper" replies. I was already planning simple vfr, build my own engine, fixed pitch prop, and at least some second hand kits.What reduction in market? Remember, it was at least partially Vans attempt at supplying a rapidly expanding market that got them into this mess in the first place. Prices have gone up, yes - but I don't see anything that looks like a market reduction.
I believe that it has always been so. I personally loved the build process, but if I hadn’t I would have bailed after the tail kit. Even with final size punched holes, QB kits, etc., no one in their right mind would build if they didn’t find some pleasure in the work. What has changed in the last half dozen years is that used prices have soared.Will the build/buy calculus get close enough, that only those that really want to build will go that path?
I think FlightChop mentioned his RV14 is closer to $500K with all the trimming, and this was before the Covid price hike.
He told me and stated publicly $250K.
I don't think that's even possible, unless you paid top-shelf price for all the labor for someone else to build it for you - which of course is against EAB rules. I think that was exaggeration for the sake of Youtube.I think FlightChop mentioned his RV14 is closer to $500K with all the trimming, and this was before the Covid price hike.
He spared no expense. Still very possible under 175 at today's prices and that is using an empennage kit that cost more than a 10 empennage ? MNSMaybe I misheard it but 250k is way outside my financial mean
If anyone actually thinks Flightchops built that airplane or paid for most of it, I have some ocean front property in TN to sell you.I don't think that's even possible, unless you paid top-shelf price for all the labor for someone else to build it for you - which of course is against EAB rules. I think that was exaggeration for the sake of Youtube.
Not really. It's established fact, that as prices rise, less people can afford things.But yes, I know that this is not what Jjackh10 meant. He meant that, as prices go up, fewer people can afford to build an RV. However: (1) This is debatable.
That just means he paid 35% more for it.Also remember that he is from Canada.
At least they can size the company appropriately for whatever it sells if they don’t repeat past mistakes.Since Van’s was previously selling kits at a loss, selling a smaller number at a profit will probably be an improvement.
He didn’t, his sponsors did. LOLThat just means he paid 35% more for it.
Not really. It's established fact, that as prices rise, less people can afford things.
Yes, it does suck - but the truth is that those people would not be building an RV anyway. Either it would be too expensive (todays reality) or Vans wouldn't exist anymore (almost reality). The prices of the previous kits were unrealistically low, and all buyers in the last 5 years essentially got an unrealized discount, that Vans (and the bankers) have now figured out was way too deep a discount.And I am sorry for folks for whom this put the dream of building an RV beyond financial reach. That does suck.
Prices of kits and parts has increased substantially, not only due to inflation, but also to help pay for the LCP remediation and the bankruptcy process. It will be interesting to see if prices may reduce somewhat in future, once the multi-million dollar costs have been recovered.Yes, it does suck - but the truth is that those people would not be building an RV anyway. Either it would be too expensive (todays reality) or Vans wouldn't exist anymore (almost reality). The prices of the previous kits were unrealistically low, and all buyers in the last 5 years essentially got an unrealized discount, that Vans (and the bankers) have now figured out was way too deep a discount.
Vans is still the best deal around (by far) for a top-shelf EAB airplane. It's just that the shelf got placed a little higher.
Well two of them retired not long before they filed. Seems they got out while the getting was good. There was no board to speak of before. Appears that Rian and Greg got demoted but Rian somehow ends up on the new board.I usually try to stay out of threads like this and can understand both side I guess.
But having worked in corporate America, has anyone of the Vans executives/boards members been 'let go'? Or are the same people now running the new/reorganized Vans? I understand there are new COO, CFO and a "interim" CEO (whatever that means).
It has been my experience that when profits drop so do the people responsible for the drop.
This is just my opinion, if I had two people ,that I had entrusted to run my business, and they this kind of thing happen , they would be the first that were Axed ! That being said , just maybe Van wasn’t paying attention to what was happening is the reason they are still there? Only Van knows the answer to this .Well two of them retired not long before they filed. Seems they got out while the getting was good. There was no board to speak of before. Appears that Rian and Greg got demoted but Rian somehow ends up on the new board.
I think someone once said in one of these threads that people tend to get promoted one level past their competency.This is just my opinion, if I had two people ,that I had entrusted to run my business, and they this kind of thing happen , they would be the first that were Axed ! That being said , just maybe Van wasn’t paying attention to what was happening is the reason they are still there? Only Van knows the answer to this .
At any rate, there are people that will no be able to afford a Vans aircraft now , with the price increase.
Promoting a person past their competency is a management problem for allowing that to happen .I think someone once said in one of these threads that people tend to get promoted one level past their competency.
Given how much “tribal knowledge” that exists at Vans it’s likely much better for the business to demote people back to what they were good at than fire them and loose their knowledge.
Firing people as punishment may end up hurting the company more than the individual, especially in small companies.
I think the kits have incredible value given the performance envelope, especially if you build from a standard kit. Those who want the quickbuild have to eat much higher cost of labor. A couple of items that really increase the build cost are NEW engine and NEW propeller. Vans didn't make money on engine before, and after the huge engine price inflation,Vans is still the best deal around (by far) for a top-shelf EAB airplane. It's just that the shelf got placed a little higher.