B

B-Binns

Member
Gentlemen/Women: I have a question regarding rear seat control systems in tandem aircraft. I am currently in money saving mode to buy an aircraft, specifically, the RV-4. Ultimately I really do want to purchase an RV-6/7, but right now . . . I don?t have the cash to ?comfortably? purchase exactly what I would want in an RV 6 / 7, which would be state of the art glass with redundancy that would allow for certified - sane IFR/IMC flight. So what I?m thinking is, as a 2-3 year alternative, I might buy an RV-4 (its a great aircraft and it is very affordable.) Here?s the scenario: my girlfriend (god bless her flight loving heart), wants very much to complete her flight training and get her license, and is in love with the idea of buying an aircraft as soon as we do it without a great deal of financial second guessing (we met when I was her CFI). But if we get an RV-4 I would really prefer it to have FULL CONTROLS FRONT AND REAR, i.e., both stick and rudders with full function in the rear seat. This way, I could be her CFI, she could get her license, and as long as we are flying in VFR conditions I could let her sit up front and fly (she is also very cool, i.e., doesn?t mind at all sitting in the back) . . . I just want full functioning controls for when I?M sitting in the back seat (given the not so remote chance that I might need to use them.) Most RV-4s that I?ve seen advertised have a stick in the back seat but no rudders. Is it possible to have full controls in the rear seat of a ?4? and if I buy a "4" that just has the stick in the rear seat, how much down-time in the maintenance shop / money, etc. would it be to upgrade it to full controls.
 
Everything is possible...except brakes

You can put rear seat rudders, stick and throttle but brakes are going to be the problem and I wouldn't instruct in a taildragger without brakes. Just my opinion.
 
Be careful

In my CFI experience, while the RV-4 is a breeze to land from the front seat for anyone with a proper tailwheel endorsement, it is a real challenge to land from the back seat. So while I might do some transition training from the backseat for someone who already is a proficient tailwheel pilot, under no circumstances would I give primary instruction from the back seat.

If that's your mission, and if money's tight, why not go find yourself a nice 150 or a Champ? Get your girlfriend her rating, build some tailwheel time, then trade her in for nice 4 (the plane I mean).

-Matt
N402BD
 
...or buy a bare bones, older, high time RV6 (which can be had at a good price too) at this stage, add co-pilot brakes if you have to, and upgrade to your IFR dream ship later? Maybe if you get a great airframe you can upgrade it yourself.
 
I received my license in my cherokee 180.
At approx 150 hours I bought an rv4.
It had stick rudder and throttle in the back, no brakes.

I received my tail wheel endorsement in my rv4 from a CFI who had never flown in an rv before. Within a few landings and take offs i had it.
So it is possible but probably not recommended.

Yes the first 2 take offs were a little tense but all worked out.

Hope you get the plane of your dreams bro, and when ever you do get your rv you'll love it.

best of luck.
 
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I recently had an insurance company say sinc the RV-8 is a two seated, I would need to get transition training in the aircraft. I said no. Even though there is a trick, rudder pedals, and a throttle, the lack of brakes made it a "none option" to me.
 
I started out where you are, looking at -4's because I perceived they were more affordable. But in the end, I bought a -6 for the same money that I had budgeted for the -4. The deals are out there, and come up regularly. 500 hour airframe, 1000-1500 hour engine, no electronic glass in the panel, fixed pitch, and 150 HP, and you'll be light, fast, cheap, and side-by-side... Much better for training if you want to use the RV.
 
MartinPred said:
...it is a real challenge to land from the back seat....
Click to expand...

I learned to fly in a Champ, teaches patience and crosswind control.

When transition training to the -4 the instructor was in the front seat. With only stick, throttle, and pedals in the back, the flaps were 'verbally' controlled and instruments were barely visible. After a few sessions and a dozen or so landings he felt comfortable with me in the front. Wow... if you learn in the back, there is no problem flying in the front.

The main reason I see not to learn in the -4 is that everything happens so fast. I have had to learn to extend my pattern just so the plane is not ahead of my brain. Taking off solo you can be at pattern altitude 3/4 of the way down the runway. Entering the pattern, trying to bleed speed off to get to flap speed can be a challenge. The champ and even cessnas gave me time to think about what just happened, and what was going to happen.

.
 
And another reason NOT to do this...

The rear pedals are terrible. While there are other ways to do it, the Vans' setup uses simple pushrods that connect the rear pedals to the front, with only the front pedals having a direct connection to the rudder cables. What's the problem with this design? Ask the RV-8 driver in California who had an experienced instructor in the rear helping him transition in his new-to-him airplane. I'm not sure if pilot froze on the controls or they were just fighting over them (same thing, basically), but the end result was a pushrod that bent and jammed, resulting in a ground loop with substantial damage to the plane. This happened just a few weeks prior to me buying my RV-4; and up until that point, I too, was planning on having that same instructor ride along in the rear seat of my plane until I was "checked out". So, if your desire is to have "full functioning controls" I don't think an RV-4 with stick, throttle, and rudder pedals in the rear is what you're looking for.
 
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rear rudder

Ryan is correct.......the pushrod set up for rear rudder use should probably be used only in flight. On the ground, unless the airplane is moving, quick use of the pushrods result in bent pushrods. They would be great to have if you are an experienced pilot in back and the front seat pilot becomes incapable of flying. At least you could get yourself safely back to earth. They are almost worthless for ground use though and, like others have said, there are no brakes.
 
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