F

fstringham7a

Well Known Member
RE: Pattern Quiz ???

Hi

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest ....

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=61568

It has given me pause as to my ability, skill, decision making, and information processing as I approach a non towered airport for landing. As an old used up high school chemistry teacher I am also well aware of my low spatial reasoning skill which adds to the complexity ..... at least for me .... in making that good decision in relation to the set up for landing.

So here is the quiz.

You are approaching KWMC ... http://www.airnav.com/airport/WMC or http://aeronav.faa.gov/pdfs/sw_243_29JUL2010.pdf ... from the northwest on the 120 radial. The ASOS says the winds are 040 @ 10 .
Monitoring the CTAF you note that there is a helicopter in the pattern practicing entry from various directions and then transition to the ramp.
SO:

Question 1. What runway do you setup to land on and what procedure of entry will you follow to effect this landing? Why ?

Question 2. You are Northwest of the airport 15 miles out descending to pattern altitude with the intention of landing on runway 02. You hear a call from an aircraft ( Hawker ) also West of the airport at 20 miles out that makes a call that they will be setting up for a landing on 32. The helicopter is still in the mix. The wind is still 040 @ 10. What will you do and why?

Question 3. What procedure do you follow when making your decision to land on a particular runway at an unfamiliar airport (nontowered)?

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... Flying and Tracken with MT-RTG call sign N74BZ
 
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Question 1. My plan would be to turn to the NE and set up for the 45 left downwind RW02

Question 2. Hawkers are fast. He'll be down and parked before you have to make your next radio call. I'd continue for RW02

Question 3. Unless I am wanting to practice cross wind landings I always set up for the runway most aligned with the prevailing wind. I always assume the majority of aircraft are doing the same. When training students and doing crosswind work when you have intersecting runways, I always give the right-of-way to airplanes using normal approach to landing.

By the way, I absolutely LOVE scenario based questions. And so does the FAA by the way! Some are more obvious and some not. All of them make you think a bit and sometimes there's no right answer. Usually there is a wrong answer though.
 
RE:NW

Kevin Horton said:
The 120 radial extends to the SE. Position reports must be clear. You've already confused the heck out of all the other traffic by an ambiguous position report.

Just to make sure we are all starting from the same place - are you coming from the NW on the 300 radial, or from the SE on the 120 radial?
Click to expand...

Kevin

You the Man....... NW is the position..... so now for your answers after clarification :eek:

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... Flying and Tracken
 
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Biggest thing I'm going to do is communicate with the other traffic.

Try to figure out what the helicopter's plans are for the time frame during which I'll be arriving. Also, seems like he's been in the pattern already...does he know of any other traffic? Tell him what I'm planning and ask if that is ok with his plans.

The hawker is behind me...what's his altitude? does he have me in sight?

Maybe I'm too chatty but I like making sure everyone is on the same page at an uncontrolled. Granted...most of my flying has been in the middle of nowhere with not many people to talk to so maybe I'm just lonely :eek:
 
Assuming I'm arriving from the NW, and calling and reporting my position and intentions and asking about other traffic,

1. Mid-field crosswind to a left downwind for runway 2, making certain that there's no conflict with the helicopter.

2. Wait for the Hawker to land, won't be long, then continue as in question 1.

3. The local winds will determine the runway. Check AWOS or ASOS, ask Unicom for winds. If there's other traffic, definitely consider what they're doing. Wind permitting, do the same. If necessary overfly the field 500 feet above the pattern, looking at the sock.

However, if the winds permit and the surface looks good and there's not conflicting traffic, I generally land on the grass, if there is grass. I fly a Cessna 180 and grass is easier.
 
Kevin Horton said:
The 120 radial extends to the SE. Position reports must be clear. You've already confused the heck out of all the other traffic by an ambiguous position report...
Click to expand...

Well, it sure confused the heck out of me! I thought it was a ?trick? question.

That said, Runway 02 is the "appropriate" runway, so I'd set up for that. The helicopter's use of every other runway is irrelevant to me at this point for planning purposes. Also, at 15 miles out, the Hawker (at 20) is of little concern except to know that he's a fast mover (if he's a jet) and we're converging on the same airport. I'd listen, report, and make my spacing adjustments when actually in the pattern for 02. In my opinion, at 15 miles out, I'm still enroute... Final planning happens in the pattern.

That's my take on it anyway.
 
Tony has it right...

Based on the info you gave, RWY 02 (the 4000' runway) is the preferred runway based on wind conditions.

The Hawker is probably using RWY 32 (the 7000' runway) based on an instrument approach or comfort factor - the crosswind isn't as big a factor for the faster airplane.

The helicopter will be avoiding the fixed wing traffic pattern, so that should be a non-factor. For example, at my non-towered home airport, helicopters fly at a lower pattern altitude and fly inside the fixed wing pattern. They also use a parallel taxiway for 90% of their practice approaches/autorotations.

When discussing uncontrolled airport operations to a non-pilot, I use the analogy of a four way stop sign intersection. Even though there are no lights to control traffic, all of the drivers approaching the stop signs at the same time have a little "dance" and they all know the steps. Even when aircraft are using different runways at an uncontrolled airport, they are also dancing to the same tune. Each aircraft is making position reports ("ten miles NW inbound", "on the 45 for left traffic runway 2", "downwind runway 2", etc...). Based on position reports, you should find that it's really not that big a deal to be using both runways simultaneously.

If you're still "spatially challenged", as you approach the airport, draw a rough airport diagram on your notepad. All you need are the two runways in a north-up drawing. This makes it easier to visualize where other aircraft are and what they are doing.

Finally, as Phylan Pan says
Biggest thing I'm going to do is communicate with the other traffic.
Click to expand...
 
Transitioning to the Pattern

Frank,

There was an article in AVweb many years ago regarding transitioning to the pattern by Paul Novacek Feb 29 2000

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184487-1.html

Basically fly over the airport 500 feet over pattern altitude, once you confirm wind direction, he describes a simple method of entering the pattern on the 45 to the down wind. If you read the article he does a much better job than I could. The article talks about the various radio reports also.

Hope this helps
 
As I mentioned in another thread, I don't like the idea of being upwind over a runway at all, unless I'm departing. Instead of his first diagram, it is simpler to just continue across the runway at right angles and then do a teardrop down into the 45. In the second situation, I'd probably do a slow downwind maneuver at transition altitude until I was on the right side of the airport and able to descend into the 45. Hey, I'm in no rush; I like to fly. :)

Regarding the quiz, I think Phlyan has the right slant. Talk. You're going to fly proper pattern regardless of what the helicopter does, but let him know so his awareness adds to yours in the see-and-avoid equation. Similarly with the jet. Maybe he doesn't know the prevailing or, as mentioned, has other factors affecting his runway choice. Either way, he should be aware of your intentions.
 
1. At the moment, I'm actually looking for crosswind landing conditions to open up the crosswind envelope for my RV-8. If the winds were higher, I'd go for Rwy 32 to get the crosswind. But, with only 10 kt of wind, I'd go for the most into wind runway, which is 02. I'd pass well north of the airport and do a 45 to the downwind entry. I'm using the 45 entry because that is the recommend entry in the USA. In Canada, I'd overfly the field on crosswind to downwind, as that is the recommended entry up here.

2. I'd make sure the Hawker was aware of my plans to help him avoid me as he zipped by. He'll be moving pretty quick, as the meter is running, time is money, etc. He will almost certainly be on the ground before I get there.

3. If there is traffic in the pattern already, I use whatever runway they are using, unless that runway is not suitable for me. If there is no traffic in the pattern, then I get to pick whichever one I want. Factors I consider are wind direction, runway length and width, runway type and condition, obstacles, proximity of parking area to runway, desire for crosswind practice, etc.

If the wind is strong, I will often chose a runway that has crosswind, if traffic permits. If you want to keep sharp at crosswinds, you need to practice. Strong winds are not that common, so I grab the practice opportunities when they present themselves.

But, for non-towered airports, there may be NORDO traffic. In that case I assume folks will be using the most into wind runway, and I'll use that circuit.

Towered or non-towered airport, you need to keep the head on a swivel. I've been surprised several times by traffic that I didn't know was there until they were closer than I liked. Don't assume everyone is following the recommended procedures, and don't assume Tower knows about all the traffic.
 
Which is exactly...

DakotaHawk said:
....
If you're still "spatially challenged", as you approach the airport, draw a rough airport diagram on your notepad. All you need are the two runways in a north-up drawing. This makes it easier to visualize where other aircraft are and what they are doing.
....
Click to expand...

...what the little brown Flight Guide books give (used to give?) you...:)

I've used the sketch system described when I've left the coverage area of my Flight Guides - the only thing I add is an arrow showing right hand patterns, just like the Flight Guide. It does help.
 
what the little brown Flight Guide books give (used to give?) you...
Click to expand...

I have AOPA's Flight Guide on my iPhone. It includes airport diagrams on most airports. I used my iPhone a lot during my cross country flight from Washington State to Oshkosh last month.
 
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