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fstringham7a

Well Known Member
RE:Mag (E-Mag) Info Needed

I have been following the various threads on the good/bad/ugly of the Emagair products. I did purchase, some months ago a P-mag combo and have them wired up and the ignition wires in place. I should be close to DAR time early in 2008 (Feb/March).

It has been interesting to me to read the various posts on this product and note the polarity of facts and opinions this product line creates.
I have especially been interested in the real life experiences of various pilots in regards to the actual function/performance/ of the E-Mag products. I have especially been enlightened by Scott Cards experiences and resolution to his problem.

Finally I am not ready to throw in the towel on the P-Mags I have installed. But, would sure like to here from those that have had a more positive experiences with them. Especially those of you that have experienced problems and how your problem was resolved....short of changing systems. Would also appreciate some imput on final set up/timing/blast tube location requirements and any sage words of advice from the E-Mag seasoned veteran. I am also open to any of you that had less then satisfactory resolutions to E-Mag probems.

Now I know that many of you respected RV builds, especially FWF gurus, have some real strong opinions on this subject. Please provide facts.....just the facts.....(this sounds like a Dragnet episode from my youth). I sure don't want to start a Mag war siimilar to the old infamous primer war.:eek:

TIA Frank @ SGU RV7A ....ndy....bgc............
 
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fstringham7a said:
I have been following the various threads on the good/bad/ugly of the Emagair products. I did purchase, some months ago a P-mag combo and have them wired up and the ignition wires in place. I should be close to DAR time early in 2008 (Feb/March).

It has been interesting to me to read the various posts on this product and note the polarity of facts and opinions this product line creates.
I have especially been interested in the real life experiences of various pilots in regards to the actual function/performance/ of the E-Mag products. I have especially been enlightened by Scott Cards experiences and resolution to his problem.

Finally I am not ready to throw in the towel on the P-Mags I have installed. But, would sure like to here from those that have had a more positive experiences with them. Especially those of you that have experienced problems and how your problem was resolved....short of changing systems. Would also appreciate some imput on final set up/timing/blast tube location requirements and any sage words of advice from the E-Mag seasoned veteran. I am also open to any of you that had less then satisfactory resolutions to E-Mag probems.

Now I know that many of you respected RV builds, especially FWF gurus, have some real strong opinions on this subject. Please provide facts.....just the facts.....(this sounds like a Dragnet episode from my youth). I sure don't want to start a Mag war siimilar to the old infamous primer war.:eek:

TIA Frank @ SGU RV7A ....ndy....bgc............
Click to expand...

43 hours so far on dual P-mags. No major operational issues. They did have to upgrade the circuit boards in one of my units so the tach pulse would be compatible with my engine monitor. Frankly, I was pleasantly surprised that they did this, as they clearly state that the tach pulse is a courtesy function and not the main purpose of their product. They did this 1.5 years after original purchase.

I did have to send the units back for firmware upgrades three times prior to first engine start and once after. That part of their whole business model is somewhat annoying, but not unexpected with a new product.

I have learned that the actual hardware inside the units is not the same for all 113 series ignitions. Depending on when you bought yours, some of the features described in the manual may or may not be available -- some features in the newer firmware isn't compatible with older hardware. I do wish they would have been more forthcoming about this during my upgrade iterations. It took some prying on my part because this information isn't readily available.

All in all, I'm happy with the product. Customer service and support is outstanding, and the product works as advertised. My wiring is very simple -- one power switch and one P-lead switch for each ignition. The power lines are protected by fuses. No dual-function switches, no pullable breakers, no maintenance mode switches, etc.

-Geoff
 
I have no functional experience with the dual P-mags that I have, but I did just send them in for the latest firmware upgrade. When I bought them (used for 40 hours or so) they were upgraded to v.25. I was told by Brad at Emag Air that v.27 was the latest. He conveyed to me a couple days ago that he thought this version was solid.

I'm looking forward to using them in my -7A...just hope I don't have to send them in again for another firmware update! :rolleyes:
 
lostpilot28 said:
He conveyed to me a couple days ago that he thought this version was solid.

I'm looking forward to using them in my -7A...just hope I don't have to send them in again for another firmware update! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

He told me that every time I upgraded.

The real question to ask him is this: given the hardware that's in your particular units (as identified by serial number), what functionality that's described in the manual may not work with them? For example, EICAD won't control some of the things it's supposed to control in my units that were manufactured in early 2006. Nothing in the manual tells you this, by the way. It has nothing to do with the firmware version and everything to do with the hardware.

I reserve the right to change my opinion if I encounter failure modes such as others have described, but so far I'm happy.

-Geoff
 
Not flown yet but happy

I haven't flown mine yet, but Brad has been very helpful with helping me out with upgrades and I believe the units will be ultimately more servicable in the field than a Slick Mag. It would not be hard! Certainly the company has their service mentality right.

I do have a Mag here that I may install till the units prove themselves on my aircraft in flight testing. I would probably do that with Lightspeed or any other unusual ignition. I have heard horror stories about just about every ignition on the market too.

Richard
RV7A - Finishing Up
 
Pmag

I first flew on April 11 with two PMAGs. I had one PMAG fail at 13 hours, Brad replaced the circuit board. I now have 246 hours on the RV and have been all over the country with it. I am very pleased with their performance and the resulting economy.
 
I will add that Brad's (emagair) customer service is impeccable for the most part. However, he is also a good salesman. The more I worked with them, the more uneasy I became with some of the company's basic engineering process. Revision control seems to be lacking, as well as customer notification of changes (part of revision control). This ignition is every bit as "experimental" as an efis or other piece of computer equipment that we're putting in our planes, where the manufacturer is releasing bug fixes at a very rapid rate. That is why we love the experimental category. Just understand where your own priorities are.
 
We have over 100 hours on one E-Mag, one slick. We ran about 10 hours with two slicks and the change was an eye-opener. Smoother, better economy, everything promised. The E-Mag has gone back one time for upgrades--a minor bummer. I once flew a Cessna that had both mags fail (rental maintenance issue) so I have to say I have as much faith in the E-mag as the Slick on the left. Probably will replace it with a P-Mag.

Bob Kelly
 
My RV6 has #2 pre-production P-Mag with about 300hrs and a Slick on the left. The P-Mag went back once for firmware upgrade. It has had no operational issues and dropped the fuel burn by 1 GPH at cruise.

My RV7A has two P-Mags, 250 hrs total time. One unit had a board failure immediately after it went in for upgrade. Other than that flawless performance, low fuel burn, smooth running and instant starts despite fuel injection.

I run both installations with the EMAGAIR recommende automotive spark plugs (@1.59 a piece at O'Reilly's). They run exceptionally clean with no lead fouling and show little wear.

Martin Sutter
RV6 N868CM
RV7A N678CM
 
20 Pound Brain

I have two P-Mags on my RV-4. I've flown them for about 200 hours with only one problem which was quickly resolved. They do what they say they will do. Better fuel economy, easier starting, more power at altitude and smoother running. As for the company. I live about 7 miles from EMag. I've been there many times and have sat around BSing with Brad and Tom on quite a few occasions. Tom is a real 20 lbs brain kinda guy. The stuff he thinks up is amazing. Brad is the businessman. He keeps Tom's ideas practical. Otherwise the P-mag would pick your nose for you. They have had growing pains just like any new business. Imagine taking a E-Mag from the whiteboard to the UPS box. They had to machine cases, build electronic circuit boards, machine shafts and fine compatible parts. All from scratch. This is no small project for two guys. Also, Tom's unrelenting drive to make things better causes hardware/software changes and sometimes these changes cause unforeseen problems. You just can't think of all the stupid human tricks pilots will do to their ignitions. Bottom line. These a couple of talented, hardworking guys that are striving to give us the best electronic ignitions possible. Give them a chance. They are learning something new everyday and improving their product. BTW, you won't see them post here. Unlike some manufacturers who get all caught up in web forums defending their products, they purposely avoid them. I don't think they have the time. I can't complain about my ignitions, but then again when I need a firmware update, I just go over and get it done. I can see how shipping them back for updates could get old real fast but it is the cost of progress. You could always go back to your 1920's era mag.
 
My view

This is my opinion so if you have these don't get your panties in a wad.

There was one plane that had an off-airport landing and possibly another weeks later using one or two of these systems. My unverified view is that one had a problem that greatly threw off the timing. I saw this problem first hand on the ground with another RV that had two of them.

So with NEW products with an unproven track record you are taking a chance. I personally have one Lightspeed and one mag. Two different failure modes in my opinion.

It has been a while since that period so maybe it is behind them. But you should take a hard look at what you put in and think about failure modes. If one goes bad will you check to see if it is just one system and run on it to the nearest suitable airport or will you land off-field with the problems that can cause.

If you like their products would one of each type system make sense to reduce the chance of simultaneous failures?

A recent RV fatality where the guy used an "alternative" engine and unconfirmed rumors that problems were not addressed, if true, shows that some people have a poor attitude/judgement when it comes to flying.

Use whatever you want but think about it. Get advice. Know the potential pitfalls. And above all do not ignore problems.
 
I just love it when a guy asks for positive feedback on a product and gets the negative stuff. This after he said he did his research and found and read the negative stuff.

'Nuff said on that topic.

I have about 85 hours on my duel P-mag set up. On my second flight, one of my P-mags lost its timing mark and I almost melted my engine. :eek:

Both P-mags went back for the required software update and I haven't had a problem since.

The Emag Boys have changed the location of the timing mark in the software, which resolved the lost timing problem. Also, if you wired them per their instructions and not Aeroelectric Bob's Z-33 diagram, the chances of having a problem were greatly diminished.

The other glitch they had was in how they attached the trigger magnet on the drive shaft. They now fasten it with screws, rather than epoxy.

I believe that these changes have resolved most of the problems. I say "most" because, just like with traditional mags, you never really know.

One of these days there will be a lawsuit and the mag builders will go out of business, just like the carb builders.
 
My post was hardly negative

It was meant to encourage discussion. It is when people don't raise important points that people can do bad things. I have seen stupid things and am not going to let them pass without comment. Not that using Emag/Pmag is stupid.
 
RE:Thick Skin

Ron, Bill, and all you good RV folks:

I have really appreciated all the imput and hope that more will come in as I am looking for info....not just good but also the not so good. But as I said in the original post my intention wasn't to start a war and only hoped for VERY factual information (which would probably only come from those that have installed the EMagair products and either had good luck or bad luck).

I was really hoping to cut through the smoke screens of well intentioned opinions to get at some base points of real life data.

Now for my unscientific opinion. It appears that when someting goes south once....especially the uncertified/experimental......it is assumned that it will always do that every time it is used. Also we sometimes guard are choice as if they were the only true perfect choice....kind of like Chevs are better than Fords because the only Ford I ever used had an alternator go bad or was that the Chev:eek:.

So please keep the info coming about EMagair....good or bad....as my shorts won't get in a twist....I do have a thick skin......(Married with seven childern for 42 years and a public school teacher/retired):rolleyes:..........

Frank @ SGU RV7A .....NDY....BGC.....
 
Plug gaps...

Quick question regarding RPM drop with P-mags...I've noticed that some say they have very little drop while others have a more pronounced drop.

Could it be that the variance in spark plug gap and type is the cause of this difference? I'm reviewing the P-mag install manual and I've noticed that they don't really give a solid recommendation for spark plug type (when using the automotive plugs)...they have a "starter" plug, but that's it. They don't recommend a gap on any automotive type plugs.

I'm using the brass adapters and the BR8ES plugs. Maybe this would be a good opportunity for those that are flying with P-mags to tell us what you're using...maybe it'll make a difference in how well they perform. :)
 
Good and not so good

I was an early user of the Pmags. Initial install was one Pmag one Emag. Before flight I sent them in for updates. To date with 300+ hours, I have had 3 problems.

1) An internal mounting fixture for a magnet came loose and caused rapid advance of timing including skyrocketing CHT's and rough running. I switched to the other mag and flew home.

2) Engine ran rough intermittently. The caused was explained to me but I don't remember the details.

3) Same issue as two.

As has been noted, Brad and Tom are excellent to work with and took care of all issues and caused no significant down time. I have about 70 hours since I had the last issue. I believe they may have everything worked out now. I'm certainly glad that they are a great company to work with. I can't imagine having problems then having a company that was tough to work with.

Regarding the guy with the off field landing. He is good friend and he purchased the Pmags after I recommended them. His off airport landing was completely unneccesary. He panicked when the temps spiked and he shut down the engine. It did not occur to him to simply switch mags with the key switch. He had a couple of other problems as well similar as to what has been discribed by others. To date, I am not aware of any bent aircraft because of Pmags.

Any new product has growing pains. In the Experimental world the fact is we are and will be the operational testers of much of our equipment. The benefit is reasonably priced products with great features. The downside is we have to work through some of the developmental problems. Look at the early problems with the Dynon units.

The upside to the Pmags is many fold. They are easy to install, wire and set up. Starts are instantaneous and the engine runs extremely smooth. When I had a problem with my Skytec starter I contacted them and discussed the issue. They asked what type of ignition system I had. When I told them I was using Pmags they said the starter would be covered 100% because Pmags were not capable of creating a kick back problem.

Although I have been very frustrated with them at times, I believe they have turned the corner and the frequency of problems will subside significantly. I continue to support the company and recommend the product to others.
 
Like others, I have had two software upgrades and only have good things to say about dealings with Brad and Tom at Emagair. They have been more than fair in all my dealings with them and I wish every aviation supplier was as easy to deal with. As far as performance, everything is as advertised. I run lean of peak at a normal cruise that burns about 7 gals per hour. I have been flying behind my two P-Mags for two years now and I'm running auto plugs. Couldn't be happier...
 
SENT THEM IN FOR UPDATES.....

RV7Guy said:
I was an early user of the Pmags. Initial install was one Pmag one Emag. Before flight I sent them in for updates. To date with 300+ hours, I have had 3 problems.

1) An internal mounting fixture for a magnet came loose and caused rapid advance of timing including skyrocketing CHT's and rough running.
2) Engine ran rough intermittently.
3) Same issue as two.

As has been noted, Brad and Tom are excellent to work with and took care of all issues and caused no significant down time. I'm certainly glad that they are a great company to work with. I can't imagine having problems then having a company that was tough to work with.

Although I have been very frustrated with them at times, I believe they have turned the corner and the frequency of problems will subside significantly. I continue to support the company and recommend the product to others.
Click to expand...

Anyone that has owned them has.....SENT THEM IN FOR UPDATES....

I guess if you own a P-mag or an E-mag, Brad or Tom will give you a tablet of return address labels to send your mags back for updates? They are now at version 25. Just think if you had version 1 in the start of this project.

If you think you want this product, then go to .... http://www.emagair.com/P-MAGII.htm
and read FAQ'S and service notes. Then come here and ask for the problems that other people have had with other eletronic ignition systems...

It's your $25,000.00 engine, and at least your butt in there when version #??? is not working.

Come back in a few years and it might just be a great system.
 
So many PMAG owners with so many problems still advocating that others buy the product. Sometimes I wonder if what is being expressed is genuine brand loyalty, or simply fear that there will be no further support for their installation if the manufacturer goes out of business.:eek:

Of course, as others have pointed out, defence of personal choice is always in the mix as well....no-one likes to admit that they made an impetuous or poorly researched purchase decision.:(

Going back a couple of decades, I can always remember a good friend who purchased a new turbo SAAB. Whenever I asked him how the car was going he always said it was a "great car...with loads of driving character". But funnily enough the moment he sold it after a short 3 years of ownership he became a vicious critic of the brand. He reported that no other car he had ever owned had suffered so many faults from day one. "A real dog; wouldn't recommend one to an enemy", he confessed.:rolleyes:

And all those PMAG factory returns for "software upgrades". God knows what that meant to PMAG owners in Europe, Australia, New Zealand and other far flung places around the globe. It must have been a very inconvenient (and perhaps costly) nightmare for them with no local support whatsoever.

Personally I suspect that the big cloud over the future of the PMAG is whether in the long run all those extremely crucial integrated circuits are going to respond well to the constant engine vibration...and perhaps more importantly...to the constant heat under the cowl. A very harsh environment indeed. I note that Lightspeed recommends that their brain box be mounted behind the firewall in the relative protection of the cabin. That advice no doubt comes from long term experience.;)
 
Information

gasman said:
It's your $25,000.00 engine, and at least your butt in there when version #??? is not working.

Come back in a few years and it might just be a great system.
Click to expand...


Gasman,


Who are you? Do you know there is a requirement to complete a signature box identifying yourself, plane and location?

First, not every change required the units to be sent in but they made each change a revision. They could have done a block of changes and then made a revision, much like Advanced or Dynon. If so the changes probably would have been less than five.

Second, I'm extremely safety oriented. I would not be using these if I thought my life or that of passenger were in danger. This is a choice I've made and has nothing to do with rationalizing a bad decision or misdirected loyalties to these guys.

Over the years I have read of problems with Lightspeed, Lasar and others. They don't get the press because they are not a new product. They are all going to have problems.
 
I currently run dual slick mags, but have been closely following the e/pmag because I really want something better. IMHO, they are still in a development phase, and at this point anyone going with them should expect to require updates and experience problems as the product matures. I don't believe the problems they are having are unusual, or suggest a bad product, and I hope eventually to be able to replace my mags with them. However, just like putting in an alternative engine, you have to understand that you are in a very real sense a test pilot. Mags are low tech, old technology with literally millions of hours in service. Properly maintained, the risk of dual mag failure is almost non-existent. Emags don't even approach this level of reliability, yet, but hopefully they will. As long as you understand and accept this, they provide a lot of advantages over mags, and your installation will help to further refine and develop the product.

Steve
 
As previously stated in this thread, I swapped out a Slick for an E-Mag. Someone at our AP had a mag fail (bad bushing,) so I gave him my old one. Numbers matched, etc. I learned today that it, too, has failed, probably the coil. It was thoroughly checked out by an A&P and determined to be in good working order. It never missed a beat with me. It would appear that these magnetos need a little more development time before we can rely on them!

Bob Kelly
 
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