F

fstringham7a

Well Known Member
RE: Hot Start ECi IOX-360 FI

Searched the threads and even wrote a tread on this problem in another thread but with new info I wanted to get the groups thoughts on this interesting problem.

With nearly 23 hours on the hobbs BUZZ (N74BZ) is flying/performing great:D

There still is one SMALL problem. HOT STARTS.

As per ECi instruction a cold starts and a hot starts should be the same.

1. Mixture full rich
2. Props full in
3. Throttle one inch in
4. fuel pump on for 1 to 5 counts (seconds) time depends on altitude/temp/hot or cold start
5. begin the start...usually on the first to thrid blade
6. when engine is running pull throttle to idle.

On cold starts the engine fires immediate and solid and smooth

On a hot start it will just crank and crank and crank......

A number of different methods have been tried but the one that works the best but...............

1. Mixture full rich
2. Props full in
3. Throttle one inch in
4. begin the start
5. Turn on the fuel pump
6. Slowly add more throttle.
7. As engine starts at some point (at a high RPM position)...time has never been the same.
8. Turn off fuel pump
9. Slowly pull the throttle to idle. If it it pulled to idle to quickly the engine will die......The engine must run at about 1200 to 1600 rpm for a period of time until it smooths out an runs at idle. I believe it take a while to push the hot fuel through the system.

NOTE: I don't necessarily like the engine running at that high an idle at start up but I also see no harm as the engine is warm/lubed/ready for action. I have a very expensive primer in the Air Flow fuel pump, no purge system, lines back to the tank from the engine driven ECi pump. I have tried many different combinations of Mixture/Throttle combinations to get the job done with this one being the one that works. In my next plane.....did my wife hear that.....I would either use the Frank 1 method of dual electric fuel pumps or the ECi suggested dual low pressure/high pressure fuel pumps(not sure of a company that makes them or where to buy). High pressure to prime and low pressure for take off/landing and hot starts..........

So there it is. Any comments, ideas, or other that don't require a rebuild of the fuel system would be appreciated or..........is this what it is. Bobby Looper the fellow that ran my engine in told me each engine has a personality and style....find it....maybe I have found it in this engine/pump combination!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 and SGU ...RV7A... Phase 1 @ 23 hours and can't wait to get out of jail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:
 
Get some popcorn ready...this is sort of like primers!

But, I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty that I'd not hot start any injected Lyco with the mixture at full rich (unless it'd been sitting a good long while).

There are several things that are a bit curious to me in your methods. Anytime the mixture is in full rich and the boost pump is on, you're basically sending fuel to the cylinders....which is not what you want in a hot injected engine that "self flooded" itself when you shut it off.

The advice you've been given about the engines having a personality is correct, but most injected lycos are the same when it comes to hot starts in the fact that you're basically starting out with a flooded engine. Electronic ignition will help this out greatl (and I don't know if you have it or not).

You'll hear a million different opinions and instructions, but conventional wisdom is to treat it like a flooded engine. Mixture out, Throttle open. Crank the engine, push the mixture in as it catches and pull the throttle out. No reason to have a 1600 RPM engine start - even it if's hot. I cringe when I see that happen!

Also, don't go trying to fix somethin that ain't broke! The fuel system is fine as designed. Sure there are opinions on that as well, but the fact is it works. Start adding complexity and you reduce reliability.

I can't give you spot on advice without sitting in your airplane and trying to start it hot....but I'm guessing it should behave like most others....

Cheers,
Stein
 
I've found the best way to start a hot injected Lycoming is like this:

1. Prop full forward
2. Mixture full lean
3. Throttle forward no more than 1/4 inch (just cracked)
4. Start cranking
5. When the engine fires (about 10 blades) Slowly ease the mixture to full
rich.
Never turn on the fuel pump prior to cranking a hot injected engine. Leave the mixture full lean with the throttle cracked and crank until it fires and then ease the mixture forward. It works every time for mine no matter what density altitude or temperature. This method gives you many more starts from a healthy starter too. Works for me.

David watson
 
Very interested in this information

Will have the same ECi FI setup with a normal vertical sump. Do you have the cold air induction?

Have you talked to Bobby Looper at ECI? He has lots of useful experience and is always very eager to help me or make recommendations.

I don't have any personal experiece to support this idea, but, it would seem running the pump with mixture full lean and throttle closed is a good idea to purge warm fuel before start. Then start with cracked throttle and partially leaned mxture.
 
Agree

I was just about to type the same thing, but David beat me to it. This is a sure thing system. The engine will crank slightly longer than a cold start, but it will start and not flood.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

DEWATSON said:
I've found the best way to start a hot injected Lycoming is like this:

1. Prop full forward
2. Mixture full lean
3. Throttle forward no more than 1/4 inch (just cracked)
4. Start cranking
5. When the engine fires (about 10 blades) Slowly ease the mixture to full
rich.
Never turn on the fuel pump prior to cranking a hot injected engine. Leave the mixture full lean with the throttle cracked and crank until it fires and then ease the mixture forward. It works every time for mine no matter what density altitude or temperature. This method gives you many more starts from a healthy starter too. Works for me.

David watson
Click to expand...
 
I do it just like David does and it works great. A couple of freinds do as well and are happy with the results. Good Luck. Larry
 
One thing I missed....do you have the Bendix/AFP fuel injection or the ECI/Continental type injection? Not super critical, but they are indeed quite different....and I didn't notice exactly which you have. You can put either on an ECI engine.

Cheers,
Stein
 
I agree with the quote below, but determine that it's a hot start if there is still fuel pressure when I am restarting.

Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV
IO-360

dbuds2 said:
Will have the same ECi FI setup with a normal vertical sump. Do you have the cold air induction?

Have you talked to Bobby Looper at ECI? He has lots of useful experience and is always very eager to help me or make recommendations.

I don't have any personal experiece to support this idea, but, it would seem running the pump with mixture full lean and throttle closed is a good idea to purge warm fuel before start. Then start with cracked throttle and partially leaned mxture.
Click to expand...

DEWATSON said:
I've found the best way to start a hot injected Lycoming is like this:

1. Prop full forward
2. Mixture full lean
3. Throttle forward no more than 1/4 inch (just cracked)
4. Start cranking
5. When the engine fires (about 10 blades) Slowly ease the mixture to full
rich.
Never turn on the fuel pump prior to cranking a hot injected engine. Leave the mixture full lean with the throttle cracked and crank until it fires and then ease the mixture forward. It works every time for mine no matter what density altitude or temperature. This method gives you many more starts from a healthy starter too. Works for me.

David watson
Click to expand...
 
RE: Thanks and .....

Thanks for the info.

On page 9 of the ECi Operating Instruction Manual it says:

http://www.eci.aero/exp/FIS_operatingmanual.pdf

4.2 Starting the Engine
This procedure is recommended for both cold
and hot starts:
Make sure that the propeller is clear and that
no personnel are in the immediate vicinity.
1) Open the throttle approximately 1 inch, and
move the mixture control to the full-rich
position.
2) Turn on the airframe boost pump on high
pressure for one to five (1-5) seconds and
turn it back off.
3) Immediately start cranking the engine over
until it starts.
4) As the engine starts to accelerate in RPM,
smoothly move the throttle towards the idle
position to prevent the engine from running
into a high RPM condition

More info: The engine is equiped with the ECi Cold ram air induction, dual PMags, ECi fuel injections. The first time away from home landing at KNB (Kanab, Utah) ECi recommended cold start/hot start method was used with out the engine starting. I then tried the more typical/standard start similar to what Dave suggests. Which didn't work readily (maybe I just didn't let it turn enough). Then the fuel pum was employed which got it started. By the way the pump is started after the prop starts turning.

Stein, my FI system is an AE Mechanical FI ECi system. By the way all that electrical stuff that you sent my way while lowering the fatness of my wallet has worked wonderfully......SO THANKS.... I also want you to know I was introducted to VAF and other sites during the high point of the world primer wars......gotta love opinions and those that stay at Hoilday Inns.

Dave, I have tried your suggested ....probably best...way to start a hot FI engine. It did turn more than ten blades, but I must admit I maybe wasn't patient enough to allow all that hot fuel to flow through. I will go back and give this another try on the next flight.

Bud, Bobby is just a great guy with alot of great info. I have discussed this with him and have told him of the novel way I start a hot engine. He wasn't overly conserned.

I do hope I can get the engine to behave using Dave's (more standard) hot start method. We will see!!!!

Finally the engine is still not broken in.....

Anyother ideas out there that may help send it this way.

Frank @ 1L8 and SGU ...RV7A... Phase 1
 
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But Here's the Biggest Problem

When your engine is cold, you know it's cold. When you've been flying, then go to start your engine about 20 to 30 minutes later on a hot day, you know the engine is hot. But what do you do when you're not sure if the engine is hot or cold, i.e., it's only about 60' F. out, and the engine has been shut down for about an hour. Do I prime, or do I not prime.
When faced with this situation, and it happens a lot here in the colder North East, on the first start, treat it like a hot engine, and try to start with a cracked throttle, and mixture idle cut-off. If nothing happens, such a cylinder firing, I'll stop cranking, and with the throttle still cracked, push the mixture to full rich, then quickly back to idle. This will slightly prime the cylinders because there's pressure in the fuel system. Engine should start then, then quickly richen the mixture. If engine does not give any indication of firing or starting, then I give a slight prime with pump as per a cold start.
With my Precision servo, no fuel goes to the fuel spider if the throttle is closed, and the mixture is in idle cut off. When priming for a cold start, I close throttle, mixture rich, pump on long enough to see fuel pressure, then shut pump off. Open throttle full, then back to about 1/4" open.
Starts within one revolution everytime.
Jack
 
Hot Starts

SteinAir said:
Get some popcorn ready...this is sort of like primers!

But, I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty that I'd not hot start any injected Lyco with the mixture at full rich (unless it'd been sitting a good long while).

There are several things that are a bit curious to me in your methods. Anytime the mixture is in full rich and the boost pump is on, you're basically sending fuel to the cylinders....which is not what you want in a hot injected engine that "self flooded" itself when you shut it off.

The advice you've been given about the engines having a personality is correct, but most injected lycos are the same when it comes to hot starts in the fact that you're basically starting out with a flooded engine. Electronic ignition will help this out greatl (and I don't know if you have it or not).

You'll hear a million different opinions and instructions, but conventional wisdom is to treat it like a flooded engine. Mixture out, Throttle open. Crank the engine, push the mixture in as it catches and pull the throttle out. No reason to have a 1600 RPM engine start - even it if's hot. I cringe when I see that happen!

Also, don't go trying to fix somethin that ain't broke! The fuel system is fine as designed. Sure there are opinions on that as well, but the fact is it works. Start adding complexity and you reduce reliability.

I can't give you spot on advice without sitting in your airplane and trying to start it hot....but I'm guessing it should behave like most others....

Cheers,
Stein
Click to expand...

I do exactly as Stein says and it always works, regardless of how long it's been sitting, other than a cold start.
Randy
 
hi frank,

we have the same eci system with the cold air induction as well...
we're a few months from flying, so we're very interested in your experience!
please keep posting as you learn new quirks and tricks.

to everybody posting about the traditional "hot start" technique: i wouldn't be surprised if this system behaves differently! it's just not (yet?) very common, unlike the 90% or more bendix/afp style injection.

without wanting to risk thread creep... how did you settle on the fuel pump? i take from your statements that you also have the default van's/afp f.i. pump package installed...
do you also just operate it only for startup, as we intend to/discussed with eci? (which kind of contradicts their own (cya) publication)...or do you run it for landing/takeoff? or do you have a low pressure pump additionally?
have you tried running the fuel pump inflight when everything runs normally (e.g. cruise). what are the effects?

thanks,
kind regards, bernie
 
RE:

flyvans.com said:
hi frank,

we have the same eci system with the cold air induction as well...
we're a few months from flying, so we're very interested in your experience!
please keep posting as you learn new quirks and tricks.

to everybody posting about the traditional "hot start" technique: i wouldn't be surprised if this system behaves differently! it's just not (yet?) very common, unlike the 90% or more bendix/afp style injection.

without wanting to risk thread creep... how did you settle on the fuel pump? i take from your statements that you also have the default van's/afp f.i. pump package installed...
do you also just operate it only for startup, as we intend to/discussed with eci? (which kind of contradicts their own (cya) publication)...or do you run it for landing/takeoff? or do you have a low pressure pump additionally?
have you tried running the fuel pump inflight when everything runs normally (e.g. cruise). what are the effects?

thanks,
kind regards, bernie
Click to expand...

Hi Bernie

My engine/prop combo was suggested to me by Robbie Attaway. He was running this system on his beautiful RV6 http://www.attawayair.com/
It is a great set up . The 200RV prop is real smooth...but then again what do I know after spending all those hours an a Cessna 150 Heavy!!!:D Cold start is immediate and performs great in all phases of flight. Only problem is the hot start...which I think is my problem not the systems problem.

The fuel pump is only used as a prime at startup. As you know ECi FI system is only used in flight if the main pump fails. I have done this and the engine continues to run fine with the electric fuel pump running. The electric pump is off during take off and landing.

You will eally like this set up...........;)

Frank @ 1L8 and SGU ...RV7A... Phase 1
 
IO540 hot starting seems...

a bit different for me. If I do not run the boost pump for a couple of seconds before the start there is a good chance the engine will quit after it starts. The fuel pressure drops off real quick and I can catch the engine with boost pump if I am fast enough. This method got a bit frustrating. After reading the lycoming manual I seem to remember it said to run the pump for a few seconds to bleed the system with the mixture full open. Basical clearing any vapor lock. Now on hot starts I do that every time and use the typical full throttle mixture off routine. It fires much sooner than 10 blades and work everytime. Not sure if I should stop the priming method from what David has said earlier, 10 blades would really be working the starter?
 
Guys,

I think you are missing the point here, the ECi system is similar to the Continental injection system and is not like the Bendix/Precision system normally fitted to Lycomings. It does not use fuel pressure as the control variable and the mixture knob does not have the same effect when starting. Using the regular Lycoming hot start technique will not work - as Frank has found out.

A few years ago I bought a 172XP with a Continental IO-360 on the front and tried to use my tried and tested Lycoming technique - with zero success at hot starts. I had to admit defeat and read the manual - Cessna describe an excellent hot start technique. It was a few years ago, I think the technique was:
Prime for 1 or 2 seconds,
Pump off and mixture full rich, throttle cracked open,
Crank - engine will likely not fire
Ease in the throttle until the engine fires
Reduce throttle
Use boost pump in 'low' setting (2 speed pump fitted) to keep engine running if necessary - something I rarely had to do,
After a few seconds everything would settle down and engine would idle properly.

I don't remember this technique ever failing to work. If I have got the detail wrong I apologize - it was a few years ago - if anyone has a 172XP manual to hand please correct me!

Pete
 
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Lot's of good suggestions here, but everyone seems focused on the fuel. It takes 3 things, remember? Air, Fuel, and spark. I have seen engines that are hard to hot start because of improperly-gapped plugs and weak magnetos. As the plug gap opens up with normal wear, the spark has to jump a larger gap. And the compression is usually higher on a hot engine, making it even harder to jump the gap. So, do listen to the advice you have seen here, and check the ignition system, too.

Vic
 
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