fstringham7a

Well Known Member
RE: Elevator Flutter ?

It sure has been fun to be at the airport and putting all the parts together that I made during the past 4.5 years. I installed the elevators today which brought up the age old balance / flutter question.

I reread the forums on balancing the elevators and reviewed Van's info on the subject. Pretty straight forward stuff.......

But, I did a google search and also some general surfing to find info on any RV accidents caused by elevator flutter and other control surfaces in general. I came up empty.....realize I am real poor at his high tech info gathering. My memory though vague, but remembers an accident a few years back that an RV accident may have been caused by flutter.

What do you deep knowledged base folks have in this area........


Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... @ the airport NDY ( not done yet )
 
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Hi Frank.....

I posted that incident about a -4 that augered in in Oz. The two guys were over gross, aft of the aft CG limit, and doing aerobatics when something went wrong. Witnesses saw parts coming off while it was vertical...could have been the rudder but there was no confirmation. Yes, two fatalities.

Regards,
 
Witnesses saw parts coming off while it was vertical...

Pierre,

If you mean vertical to be when they where nose pointed at the earth then it could have been over "G" and not flutter as I would imagine they where pulling pretty hard with the stick and, being over gross and picking up speed, you can easily over "g" the plane. What did the NTSB report say?

True flutter is quick, happens in milliseconds.
 
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Can true flutter be tested in a wind tunnel on the ground? I know that is not the same as real world situation.
 
Absolutely

Can true flutter be tested in a wind tunnel on the ground? I know that is not the same as real world situation.
Flutter can definitely be tested in a wind tunnel. Many years ago (in school getting my BSAE) I saw a number of videos showing flutter in wind tunnels. I saw some wind tunnel testing on rotor blades when I worked at Boeing Vertol that would make your hair stand on end :eek:
 
Yep, vertical, as in straight down...

Pierre,

If you mean vertical to be when they where nose pointed at the earth then it could have been over "G" and not flutter as I would imagine they where pulling pretty hard with the stick and, being over gross and picking up speed, you can easily over "g" the plane. What did the NTSB report say?

True flutter is quick, happens in milliseconds.


It was reported by the Australian equivalent of our NTSB.

Still seems to me it was a piece of rudder....perhaps some of the guys from Oz would chime in.

Regards,
 
flutter

always pays to treat the flutter issue serously, at any speed!

..but has anyone noticed on their walk-around that the elevator trim tab is not all that solid!?!? ( manual trim)
A little slop in the various connections adds up to more movement than I like to see.
Trim flutter becomes elevator pretty quick I'd assume.
I know some guys have beefed up the trim arm, and/or hinge.

any observations?
 
There was a debate on which trim is better, manual trim tab or electric spring type. I was leaning to trim tab. Its advantages are 1) no load on the push rod and 2) you can still move the control surface if rods are broken by using the trim. Now I've taken a second look. I might go with electric spring type trims for both the aileron and the elevator. Advantages 1) one less moving part 2) puts a load on the rod and 3) the spring on the device gives more stiffness to the control surfaces.
 
There was a debate on which trim is better, manual trim tab or electric spring type. I was leaning to trim tab. Its advantages are 1) no load on the push rod and 2) you can still move the control surface if rods are broken by using the trim. Now I've taken a second look. I might go with electric spring type trims for both the aileron and the elevator. Advantages 1) one less moving part 2) puts a load on the rod and 3) the spring on the device gives more stiffness to the control surfaces.

My preference is neither manual or electric spring. I have servo operated tabs for both the elevators & ailerons. The servos are mounted inside the elevator/aileron & have no slop. The aileron tab, which is a 1"*6" piano hinge was an older method when I built my 6A; but I still prefer it over the spring setup. As to more stiffness on the control surfaces, I don't see what an advantage would be. They feel and work great, just as they are.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
L.A,

Your setup is great. But have you think about adding mechanical trim wheels just in case those servos quick. The investment just goes up and up, doesn't it.
 
Frank, There's been plenty of talk in the forums regarding flutter. Just search for the "flutter" term.

In short, flutter is a consideration all airplanes must be designed for. Vans Aircraft has found flutter to be an issue for these aircraft if you get high and fast enough, even if you're operating within the published V-n envelope. Ken Krueger wrote an article in the RVator talking about that. You should read it.

In building your airplane, I'd strongly suggest keeping high standards for how you build the whole empennage, control surfaces especially. As for the trim tab, stiffer is generally better. Elevators need to be counter balanced at the hinge point so they don't induce deflection while the airplane is loaded up, and to drive the natural frequency of the structure down so it can't sync with aerodynamic effects. On my RV4, I over balanced the elevators slightly, so they balanced to "zero" after painting. That worked out well.

Edit: I started a thread on this subject a while back. Take a look...
 
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RE: Thanks......

It sure has been fun to be at the airport and putting all the parts together that I made during the past 4.5 years. I installed the elevators today which brought up the age old balance / flutter question.

I reread the forums on balancing the elevators and reviewed Van's info on the subject. Pretty straight forward stuff.......

But, I did a google search and also some general surfing to find info on any RV accidents caused by elevator flutter and other control surfaces in general. I came up empty.....realize I am real poor at his high tech info gathering. My memory though vague, but remembers an accident a few years back that an RV accident may have been caused by flutter.

What do you deep knowledged base folks have in this area........

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... @ the airport NDY ( not done yet )


Bill

Thanks for the info....I did read the forums...I do believe (tech counselor evaluation) I have maintained a very high standard in all phase of building this plane....

But, like you, ( flutter info in your thread ) I believe that this bad flight characteristic needs careful evaluation. Which brings me to my original question....how many RV accidents have been directly related to flutter?
I did some research and came up empty thus my question to the more qualified knowlege base in this area of accident study.

Frank
 
Flutter

I once experienced an aileron flutter mode in a sailplane. The aileron control pressures felt a little strange and when I let go of the stick, it began to swing back and forth, further and further until hitting the stops. My hand pressure was evidently enough to dampen this. I removed the ailerons and found them to be over weight and out of balance. After refinishing and balancing the ailerons, the problem went away.

Here is what was happening... when a wing accelerated upwards, the heavy aileron lagged behind and deflected downwards. This caused the wing to accelerate further and the aileron to deflect even more. After the wing was good and flexed, it would spring back and the process would repeat in the opposite direction.

I don't have many details, but a local pilot experienced flutter on a Rocket during test flights. At high speeds, the elevator began to vibrate. Apparently, the problem went away after filling some kind of overlap near the trailing edge. Perhaps the bump at the trailing edge was shedding vortices like the Tacoma Narrows bridge?

The best way to avoid flutter is to balance your controls and obey your operating limitations. If you do experience it, try slowing down as quickly as possible. There are many types of flutter and some of them can cause violent structural failures.

-David Shelton
 
Shouldn't all the control surfaces be balanced at the hinge? Before connecting the rods and cable, well balanced control surfaces should stay where they are after you deflect them. I am not at the wing stage. Are ailerons attached to the wings with piano hinges?
 
Shouldn't all the control surfaces be balanced at the hinge? Before connecting the rods and cable, well balanced control surfaces should stay where they are after you deflect them. I am not at the wing stage. Are ailerons attached to the wings with piano hinges?

No, they are attached via brackets bolted to the rear spar.
 
Hinge balancing only for elevators

Aviator: Only the elevator really needs to be balanced at the hinge. Like I said before, this is so the elevator doesn't have a moment induced about the hinge due to load factor on the airplane. One downside to this is the total mass involved with 100% balancing is substantially more, which loads the hinges up more. This requires stiffer structure.

Ailerons are mass balanced to adjust their mechanical frequency, not to balance individually at the hinge. Since the left/right ailerons are mechanically bussed together, the two will always have balanced loads when acting as a complete system.
 
6155 RV's flying and no flutter reported....

Flutter is a major issue with any airplane but in contest with this discussion, it must be noted that 6155 RV's have been built and flown and there are no reported incidents of it occurring within or outside its design envelope. I originally, stupidly, flight tested my machine to the red line at 8000' while the design limit is actually true airspeed. I suspect many others have done likewise with no catastrophic consequences.

I am of the opinion the factory has addressed the issue to the point that I do not loose sleep over it. If the empennage is built according to the plan, it is a safe airplane with regard to elevator flutter and ditto for the wings and ailerons.

(I once experienced serious canard/elevator flutter at 12,500' over Alabama that was induced by vibration when one blade of a 3 blade prop left the airplane. The only thing that saved it that day was the fact that the flutter was not induced by aerodynamic forces but by severe vibration. After the engine was shut down (which was done promptly by someone else moving my hand to the mixture - I was solo), the flutter ceased and the airplane became very calm and quiet as it became a glider. The point here being, if you ever experience severe vibration due to a prop or engine problem, reduce airspeed and shut the engine down ASAP as it could lead to an airframe failure if any control surface is induced to flutter.)
 
I went through those a while back. Were you flying at top speed IAS then? At 8000, I would say that's about 16% faster than the top speed per vans

That's correct. The flight testing was done in 2003, before the subsequent article in the RVator and discussion on the subject.

Up until then, every airplane I had flown had limits depicted on the ASI and it was valid to use those limits as such (although in some cases the limit is calibrated airspeed). For example, the C-150 has a Vne of 162 mph, maneuvering of 109 mph, calibrated speed. The Rutan Long EZ is limited to 220 mph and its manuevering speed is 140 mph, both indicated airspeed. Every military and commercial machine I flew had ASI limits - never true airspeed. Flap speeds, gear speeds, climb speeds, turbulence penetration speeds, Vne, etc. were always what you saw on the gauge.

How come RV's are the only flying machines (that I know of) with structural limits based on TAS?
 
... it must be noted that 6155 RV's have been built and flown and there are no reported incidents of it occurring within or outside its design envelope.

David, in the RVator article you linked to, Smoky reported a flutter occurrence in his RV4. Ken Krueger interpreted Smoky's report as a likely incidence of elevator flutter. So, we have at least one data point of actual flutter here.

Like you, I've flown a few airplanes, near 50 types to date. Never encountered one that had airspeed operating limits expressed in TAS, *however* I've learned from reading here on VAF that sailplanes do see such limits more routinely. This, apparently due to their very flexible wings, long wing spans, etc.

How come RV's are the only flying machines (that I know of) with structural limits based on TAS?

The TAS limit isn't a structural limit, its there for flutter clearance. I agree, its very unusual for any GA type airplane, esp one that's supposed to be "acrobatic" designed. The limit was published, in principle, in the 2006 RVator article. Newer plans sets apparently relate Vne to TAS, not IAS. Mine, for one does not. To my knowledge, Vans has not made any attempt to contact kit owners with updated operating envelope information (like they did with the RV3 wing mod).

Frank, I also do not know of any RV that's crashed or suffered a structural failure due to flutter.
 
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David-A,

Vne is always TAS. The fact that certified aircrafts put the redline on their respective IAS gauges is to indicate the Vne at the altitude of their service ceilings (very expensive to make a gauge with a redline that adjusts itseft by altitude). I bet you a dollar if you take the C-150 flying at sea level, you can hit the redline without flutter. (It might have a structural limit of 162mph IAS. Oops)
 
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Manual trim setups have to be very cautious regarding play, because it can develop. Electric tabs have plastic ends that I have seen play develop in as well. I'm convinced that most of the incidents I've heard of where people 'feel' flutter in the stick at higher speeds are due to trim tab play, not flutter. That conclusion is mostly because flutter is usually much to high a freq to feel in the stick.

I REALLY don't like the spring bias setup for ELEVATOR trim, for the redundancy reason. And the pure electric is good enough with the tab, since it's proven that an RV's stick forces are manageable at full runaway, nose up and down.
 
Vne is always TAS.

Nope.

Vne is 90% of Vd (as opposed to Vmo which is 80% of Vd). Vd is the maximum demonstrated dive speed. If the manufacturer determines that this speed is not a constant CAS value, then there must be a means of determining the correct value at changing altitudes.

Reference: (as of April 28, 2009)

FAR 23.1545 Airspeed indicator.

(c) If Vne or Vno vary with altitude, there must be means to indicate to the pilot the appropriate limitations throughout the operating altitude range.


In other words, if there is no indication on the airspeed indicator or pilot's operating handbook showing that Vne varies with altitude, than it is limited by CAS, NOT TAS. This is the case with most certificated light aircraft.

As a pilot who was first trained as an aerospace engineer, and one who has experience with both relatively high altitude flying and extensive experience with gliders, the oversimplifications about TAS and flutter made by the VAF community always bother me. First off, flutter is NOT always the limitation driving Vd. In fact most often maximum dynamic pressure is the limitation upon which Vd is based (a point which has been clearly stated by other posters).

In gliders, which have a relatively torsionally flexible structure, and which are sometimes flown to altitudes far beyond what most RV's will ever see, flutter CAN be a concern at high altitudes. In this case, the aircraft manual will have a table showing the maximum airspeed versus altitude. Most of the time, the table will not even start until above 20,000 ft. Even above this altitude, close inspection will show that the speed limit does NOT correspond to a constant TAS (the maximum TAS increases with altitude, while the maximum IAS decreases with altitude).

Because the subject of aeroelasticity (flutter) is so complex, often only generalities are discussed. This means casual readers will know that harmonics required to achieve flutter depend on TAS, the harmonics can be adjusted or reduced by various mass ballancing techniques, etc. However, flutter also requires that the fluid flow have enough energy to excite the harmonic, which means it also depends somewhat on dynamic pressure. How important the actual airspeed is relative to the dynamic pressure depends on so many factors that a determination is well beyond the capacity of most of the homebuilder community.

Our confusion with the flutter issue stems from people operating RV's outside of the operating envelope originally designed for them, and Van's reaction to this. Since Van's Aircraft does not have the resources to determine flutter envelopes for all of their aircraft, and any such envelope would only be pertinant to an aircraft with exactly the same mass ballance and stiffness as the test aircraft (not many homebuilts would be close enough for the envelope to be relevent), they make no attempt to do so. Instead, they take the absolute safest course from an engineering standpoint: If you know the aircraft will not have a flutter problem if operated at or below the published Vne at sea level, and if the maximum true airspeed for no flutter operation increases at an unknown rate with increasing altitude, then you can make the blanket statement about flying the airplane at a TAS below the maximum TAS at sea level and you will be CERTAIN that no flutter will occur at higher altitudes.

This assertation on the part of Van's makes perfect sense, and I have to agree with the reason they do this. However, do not jump to conclusions. The following conclusions are all incorrect and do not logically follow from Van's stated position:

1) All aircraft are limited by True Airspeed rather than Indicated (or more correctly Calibrated) airspeed - False! Most are not.

2) The True Airspeed at which flutter will be triggered is independant of altitude - False! The maximum no-flutter TAS will increase with altitude, but without extensive analysis no one knows by exactly how much.

3) All RV's will flutter if the maximum TAS value at sea level is exceeded - False! Most are probably capable of some reasonably large margin above the maximum dynamic pressure limit designed into them, but no one knows by how much, and actual testing can be EXTREMELY hazardous.

I do not advocate flying your airplane outside of its safe limits. Maintaining a TAS in your RV below the maximum TAS at sea level will always be a safe thing to do. But please do not conclude that this limitation is common to all aircraft, or even all RV's.

Pat
 
Pat,

You are right on the nail. :) However, since most of us here are not as technical as you are, I tried to explain it in a simpler way. :D As to the flutter speed changes per altitude and yes it does, some one here suggested using the average between the IAS calibrated to TAS max and max(as IAS) itself. I am a bit conservative and just use TAS.