erich weaver

erich weaver

Well Known Member
Patron
Would like to hear from folks what the proper ettiquette is for radio calls when you are participating in a flight of two or more. Can all radio communication calls for the group be made by the leader? Are there any calls that should only be to/from the individual planes? Any change in the protocol when departing/arriving at a towered airport compared to non-towered? What about for flight following communications?

thanks

erich
 
This is pretty well covered IIRC in the t-34 manual as well as some of the other manuals floating around.

The best way to do this is find some experienced people who are willing to teach you. It is neither easy nor safe to figure it out on your own.

With the caveat about self-teaching, the I really like the Bob Hoover video "Formation flying: The Art."

There is an old joke that the only thing the wingman should ever say on the radio is either "Two" (when checking in) or "Lead, you're on fire!"
 
To clarify, Im not really talking about true formation flying - just folks in separate planes, but 'travelling together'. Perhaps that makes all the difference in the answer. Not quite sure what this means with respect to actual min/max distances apart, but it would certainly be enough to distance to keep everyone comfortable.

erich
 
re: gaggle/formation

What we do when go as a flight of 2 or 3, or more, we decide, before we ever get in the airplanes, who is going to be lead/talker and where everyone else is going to be in the "gaggle" from there. The leader will be the only one transmitting, everyone else just LISTENS. When the leader makes the initial call to the tower or whoever, his contact info...."Oak City approach, RV..." Appr. responds..."RV...Oak City app. This is when the leader tells approach, "RV...flight of (how many) with all the info. From this point whenever RV... is contacted by app., tower, etc that transmission includes everyone in that flight. ie RV....cleared to land rwy.... this means everyone in the fllight is cleared to land, unless told other wise by controller.
I may be wrong in how we've done this but, this procedure has always worked for us. And we've never been invited to call the tower.:)

A couple of years ago, we had a flight of 3. There was an accident. We immediately got "accused" (on this site, not the FAA) of formation flying without training. The "accuser" didn't know us from Adam or whether we had formation training or not. Although none of us had any formation training, that's why we were a flight of three. We were "spaced" about 1/2 mile apart. I don't know how many formation flights are that spread out.


Marshall Alexander
 
Flight of two...

Hi Erich,

The rules really assume a formation flight. You can have the "lead" do all the radio work and refer to him/herself as NXXX, a flight of two, but the tower is going to expect a formation takeoff. Also, if you are operating out of Class 'C' airport, you are going to get one clearance and transponder code, again assuming a close formation. Simpler to go it alone and join up along the way.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Probably not even qualified to respond here but my hangar mate, "Indiana Larry" and I often fly with our wives as a flight of two. We agree before getting into the planes who will be Lead, i.e. do all of the radio work. Basically when ever we would give our N number we give it as Nxxxx, flight of two. On first call we will usually give it as Experimental Nxxxx, flight of two RV's. I have heard somewhere that only the lead should have his transponder on except when within a Class B's 30 mile ring.

If I am wrong on any of this let me know and I will edit this post.
 
Flight of two

I've flown along side a buddy a few times in my Aeronca a few years back. What we'd do is decide who will do the talking to the tower or traffic (usually me) well in advance and then he'd monitor on the active freq as I made all the calls. I'd say something like "Hay Patch Tower, Aeronca blah blah blah, flight of two, 5 miles out, yada yada, landing". Then they would usually add "flight" to all the calls to me and my friend. For instance, "Aeronca blah blah blah flight, cleared to land". It was easy. I never mentioned his type of aircraft unless asked.
 
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Steve, John, Kelly, what you guys said is pretty much what we do/did. Only the lead had his transponder on, the rest of us were instructed by the tower to turn ours off. Their equipment told them we were on a collision course. The airport wasn't busy at all, so they were friendly and sort of "talkative" with us. Matter of fact, I think the controller even chuckled a bit when he told everyone but the lead to tun off their transponders, then told us why.
BTW, we've never gone into a class B airspace. So I guess it's good I saw this thread.:)

Marshall Alexander
 
Ron Lee said:
Why would all aircraft in a flight have transponders on in Class B?
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This just came up this weekend. We flew to Sporty's for hot dogs on Saturday. When heading back to Evansville we flew as a flight of two. We were under the outer layer of Cincinnati's Class B so we were not talking to them but we were within the 30 mile Mode C ring. I'm assuming that the Mode C requirement applies to all planes within thirty miles. I figured it was easier to abide by the rules and apologize for a collision warning popping up on their screen than get busted for not having a transponder on within the Mode C ring. Would like to know what is appropriate for this case.
 
newtech said:
Would like to know what is appropriate for this case.
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I don't know of an exemption in the FARs for formation flight. IIRC, per the FARs, if you have a properly certified transponder installed, you are required to have it on at all times, regardless of where you are, unless you are explicitly asked by ATC to discontinue squawk - you don't have a choice. If ATC asks, that's a different story. In reality, I would think ATC would only want the lead squawking.

As for why you shouldn't just turn off your transponder, recall the glider-bizjet midair near Reno a few years ago. The incident occurred above 10,000 MSL. The glider had a properly certified transponder on-board, but it was turned off in order to have enough battery for radio calls when landing. As a result, the glider didn't turn up on the Hawker's TCAS until its wing slced through the avionics boxes (everyone walked away, always wear your chute!).

TODR
 
newtech said:
This just came up this weekend. We flew to Sporty's for hot dogs on Saturday. When heading back to Evansville we flew as a flight of two. We were under the outer layer of Cincinnati's Class B so we were not talking to them but we were within the 30 mile Mode C ring. I'm assuming that the Mode C requirement applies to all planes within thirty miles. I figured it was easier to abide by the rules and apologize for a collision warning popping up on their screen than get busted for not having a transponder on within the Mode C ring. Would like to know what is appropriate for this case.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that a formation flight is treated as one aircraft. In fact, it's common to ferry non-transponder equipped aircraft in this fashion, with just lead squawking. All clearances apply to the entire formation, not just lead.

The exception is when landing at an uncontrolled airport where the formation breaks up to land as individual aircraft, doing their own radio work. The airport is uncontrolled so it's not necessary for all aircraft to squawk.

In my experience, however, not all ATC is familiar with handling formation flights and may provide instructions contrary to the "one aircraft" principle.

I've had the pleasure of calling a tower and arranging a "debriefing" for the controllers because they screwed up. You have to be polite and use it as an teaching opportunity. Keep the chips off the shoulder and be pleasant. Most controllers have just as much fun with formation landings and take-offs as we do.

It's a courtesy to call a tower ahead of time if you know they are unfamiliar with formation arrivals and let them know what you plan. This is for the safety of all aircraft in the zone at the time you arrive.

Vern
FAST wingman rated, SFC member.
 
Some references...Emphasis in bold.
I think the argument could be made that for a standard formation, only one transponder is necessary.

First from the AIM Glossary:

FORMATION FLIGHT- More than one aircraft which, by prior arrangement between the pilots, operate as a single aircraft with regard to navigation and position reporting. Separation between aircraft within the formation is the responsibility of the flight leader and the pilots of the other aircraft in the flight. This includes transition periods when aircraft within the formation are maneuvering to attain separation from each other to effect individual control and during join-up and breakaway.
a.A standard formation is one in which a proximity of no more than 1 mile laterally or longitudinally and within 100 feet vertically from the flight leader is maintained by each wingman.
b.Nonstandard formations are those operating under any of the following conditions:
1.When the flight leader has requested and ATC has approved other than standard formation dimensions.[/B]
2.When operating within an authorized altitude reservation (ALTRV) or under the provisions of a letter of agreement.
3.When the operations are conducted in airspace specifically designed for a special activity.

From the controller reg 7110.65:
2-1-13. FORMATION FLIGHTS
a. Control formation flights as a single aircraft. When individual control is requested, issue advisory information which will assist the pilots in attaining separation. When pilot reports indicate separation has been established, issue control instructions as required.
NOTE-
1. Separation responsibility between aircraft within the formation during transition to individual control rests with the pilots concerned until standard separation has been attained.
2. Formation join-up and breakaway will be conducted in VFR weather conditions unless prior authorization has been obtained from ATC or individual control has been approved.
5-5-8. ADDITIONAL SEPARATION FOR FORMATION FLIGHTS
Because of the distance allowed between formation aircraft and lead aircraft, additional separation is necessary to ensure the periphery of the formation is adequately separated from other aircraft, adjacent airspace, or obstructions. Provide supplemental separation for formation flights as follows:
a. Separate a standard formation flight by adding 1 mile to the appropriate radar separation minima.
b. Separate two standard formation flights from each other by adding 2 miles to the appropriate separation minima.
c. Separate a nonstandard formation flight by applying the appropriate separation minima to the perimeter of the airspace encompassing the nonstandard formation or from the outermost aircraft of the nonstandard formation whichever applies.
d. If necessary for separation between a nonstandard formation and other aircraft, assign an appropriate beacon code to each aircraft in the formation or to the first and last aircraft in-trail.

My .02,
Paige
 
Standard vs. Non-Standard Formation

John Clark said:
Also, if you are operating out of Class 'C' airport, you are going to get one clearance and transponder code, again assuming a close formation. Simpler to go it alone and join up along the way.
Click to expand...

Paige beat me to it, but here is my two cents:

I think there may be confusion over the definition of "close" formation. It is not defined by the FAA. What we really should be talking about is "standard" versus "non-standard" formation. According to the Pilot/Controller Glossary, a "standard formation" is one in which a proximity of no more than 1 mile laterally or longitudinally and within 100 feet vertically from the flight leader is maintained by each wingman.

When departing an airfield with a tower and radar facilities (class D+), and there is no difference between a single aircraft or a formation as long as the flight maintains standard formation. The flight lead maintains the squawk and the wingman will have their transponder off unless requested by the controller.

If you need to take off single-ship and cannot maintain standard, just tell the tower that you will be "non-standard". Again, it is the controllers decision if the rear element needs to have the transponder on. If you takeoff non-standard, when you get rejoined or within 1 NM and 100 feet let the controller know "Approach, RV XXX flight is now standard formation." It is as easy as that.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/pcg.pdf
 
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Thus sayeth FAR 91.215, lightly paraphrased:

(b) - Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, aircraft must have and operate transponders: inside Class B, C or D airspace; above 10,000 feet; within Class B veils.

(c) - While in the airspace as specified in (b), or inside all controlled airspace, each aircraft that is equipped with a certified transponder shall operate its transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed.

(Note that controlled airspace means Class A, B, C, D and E.)

I read this that unless ATC specifically authorizes otherwise, you must operate your transponder except while in Class G airspace. I haven't found anything in the FAR or AIM that suggests otherwise.

TODR
 
re: formation/flight

I notice that all the posts through #10, are talking about a flight of X number of aircraft. Then after #10, everyone is talking about formation flight. I think the original thread starter, asked about a flight of aircraft, not formation.:confused: This is how our accident was blamed on formation flying without training when it was a FLIGHT of 3, not formation.
As far as the transponder being on all the time, I'm with you on that. I'd rather leave it on and be told to turn it off by ATC.:)

Marshall Alexander
 
Saying flight of three on the radio equals a formation for the FAA. It sounds like you may have been flying a non-standard formation, but FAA controllers will still treat you as a formation. Ultimately when you say "flight" you assume responsibility for the deconfliction and actions of those in your flight. The only exception that I'm aware of to this would be military "cell" operations where all aircraft have separate, identical flight plans with separate assigned altitudes but maintain spacing in the neighborhood of 1 mile off of each other.

Paige
 
Non- Formation group flying

We have a Sunday agreed upon strategy for 182 group flying- Air to air freqs and etc. When in very loose overtakeing- we try and spread out to 500 feet from lead for separation safety, then the faster ship will move on. All other positions are called out by miles to target. In this environment it is good to spread by a mile or 2 out upon reaching the destination (controlled or uncontrolled). All radio calls are individual but warning for the inbounds is a good thing like: "4 more aircraft behind me". I have never heard non-standard formations calls. I believe that could be confusiong unless everyone is familiar. If you truly are a formation, You need to brief as such and fly as one unit- lead does all the talking- all the way from startup to shutdown.
 
From the ATC perspective, you are either a flight or you aren't. If you call up as RV N12345 flight of 4, I expect that you:

Can/will maintain your own separation
Only one transponder will be on (even in B airspace)
Only one pilot will talk (except for the occational *2*3*4* calls to acknowlage.)

I also (being a tower controller) prefer that you know how to perform and overhead break correctly and know the phraseology.

If you don't meet any/all of the conditions above, just call on your own. It doesn't matter to us if you know about the other aircraft going to the same location or not.... just like everybody else, we still need separation. Keep chatter to a minimum on control frequencies unless it's to help each other spot the other.

If you haven't had any formal formation training (FAST or military) you probably should just keep a mile or so apart and call individually.

Just for clarity a "Flight of 3" IS formation. There is nothing else. You are either a formation "Flight of" or you are just one guy that knows his friends are going to the same airport.
 
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formation flights

One thing to remember a controller may have the lead acft squawk and also the trail aircraft of a non-standard formation. This is to assist him in separating the formation. I have done this only twice in 16 years of mixed ATC experience, Approach and Center as most flights are of a standard formation.

This is an para in FAAO 7110.65

-5-8. ADDITIONAL SEPARATION FOR FORMATION FLIGHTS

Because of the distance allowed between formation aircraft and lead aircraft, additional separation is necessary to ensure the periphery of the formation is adequately separated from other aircraft, adjacent airspace, or obstructions. Provide supplemental separation for formation flights as follows:

a. Separate a standard formation flight by adding 1 mile to the appropriate radar separation minima.

REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-13, Formation Flights.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-5-1, Application.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-7-3, Separation.
P/CG Term- Formation Flight.

b. Separate two standard formation flights from each other by adding 2 miles to the appropriate separation minima.

c. Separate a nonstandard formation flight by applying the appropriate separation minima to the perimeter of the airspace encompassing the nonstandard formation or from the outermost aircraft of the nonstandard formation whichever applies.

d. If necessary for separation between a nonstandard formation and other aircraft, assign an appropriate beacon code to each aircraft in the formation or to the first and last aircraft in‐trail.

NOTE-
The additional separation provided in para 5-5-8, Additional Separation for Formation Flights, is not normally added to wake turbulence separation when a formation is following a heavier aircraft since none of the formation aircraft are likely to be closer to the heavier aircraft than the lead aircraft (to which the prescribed wake turbulence separation has been applied).

REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 9-2-12, Military Aerial Refueling.
 
osxuser said:
From the ATC perspective, you are either a flight or you aren't. If you call up as RV N12345 flight of 4, I expect that you:

Can/will maintain your own separation
Only one transponder will be on (even in B airspace)
Only one pilot will talk (except for the occational *2*3*4* calls to acknowlage.)

I also (being a tower controller) prefer that you know how to perform and overhead break correctly and know the phraseology.

If you don't meet any/all of the conditions above, just call on your own. It doesn't matter to us if you know about the other aircraft going to the same location or not.... just like everybody else, we still need separation. Keep chatter to a minimum on control frequencies unless it's to help each other spot the other.

If you haven't had any formal formation training (FAST or military) you probably should just keep a mile or so apart and call individually.

Just for clarity a "Flight of 3" IS formation. There is nothing else. You are either a formation "Flight of" or you are just one guy that knows his friends are going to the same airport.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification. From a controller, you made it easy to understand, at least, I do now.:)

Marshall Alexander
 
flyeyes said:
This is pretty well covered IIRC in the t-34 manual as well as some of the other manuals floating around.

The best way to do this is find some experienced people who are willing to teach you. It is neither easy nor safe to figure it out on your own.

With the caveat about self-teaching, the I really like the Bob Hoover video "Formation flying: The Art."

There is an old joke that the only thing the wingman should ever say on the radio is either "Two" (when checking in) or "Lead, you're on fire!"
Click to expand...

You forgot, "Bingo!"
 
flyeyes said:
There is an old joke that the only thing the wingman should ever say on the radio is either "Two" (when checking in) or "Lead, you're on fire!"
Click to expand...

There is one other thing that Lead does not mind a wingman saying on the radio. "I'll take the FAT Chick." :)
 
RV6_flyer said:
There is one other thing that Lead does not mind a wingman saying on the radio. "I'll take the FAT Chick." :)
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Must be a Navy thing - such conversation not allowed on the Radio in Air Force formation, must wait for the de-brief or the bar...
 
LarsonAero said:
Has to be a Navy thing. The Air Force doesn't take the left over "fat-chick"s, we leave those for the Navy. :D
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While I'd like to believe that our standards were higher in that regards, I do recall at least one or two folks famous for "Water Buffalo Hunting..."

Maybe you just REMEMBER them differently...

;)

Besides, I have to give the Navy some credit - by far one of the best cross country layovers was NAS Oceana.

:D
 
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