R

RedBird

I'm New Here
http://www.lancasterway.com/WeatherStation/AFSQuickPanel.JPG

Last week I picked up my QuickPanel from Advanced Flight Systems... I was very impressed with the quality and layout. What is most astounding, is the simplicity of the install. As you see here, we preinstalled all the components to the sub-panel to make sure that everything fit ok, connected all the wiring, and made sure that we would have easy access to them should we need to get back in there. But more so, once we are ready for the final install, everything would be ready to go - just slap it in and it's done. Fini.

What I want to point out is that it only took a day and a half to lay it out, mount everything and have it ready for install. The QuickPanel saved us an incredible amount of time, and not so much with the physical aspect of building harnesses and such, but in testing and marrying all the components together. It's all fun and games until something doesn't work. AFS makes sure that all the testing and functionality of the systems is done before it leaves the shop. I know that for fact, I was there breathing down Rob and Jeff's necks whatching them test everything.

We still have a lot of work to do, but the QuickPanel sure saved us tons of time. And, as you all know, there's horror stories out there of "stuff" not working the way it should, builders spending months trouble shooting. I know of some builds first hand, and that's why I turned to Rob. And I must say that Rob's been so prompt with any of the hundreds of questions I've had, I thought I was his only customer. Obviously, I not...
 
Very nice, do you have some more pictures? How much of the layout did you get input on?

Lynn
 
Lynnb said:
Very nice, do you have some more pictures? How much of the layout did you get input on?

Lynn
Click to expand...


We ended up doing a lot of customization on this RV-10 panel to fit the IFR requirements for Canada. This panel has an extra TCW battery for the Dynon D10A and a Garmin GNC255 Nav/Com.

We do all of our panel design in SolidWorks and provide an approval drawing before building the panel. We find that we usually have the panel design you’re looking for or we can quickly make modifications to fit your requirements.



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Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
 
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Canadian IFR Panel requirements

Yes, do be careful with Canadian IFR requirements. I see too many adds selling RV's that meet IFR requirements and that they can be exported to Canada. Clearly not so. By and large from what I've seen, they will not meet the standards. Not that they are much better, they are just different. Due diligence!
 
Thanks for the reply Rob. I initially thought these were going to be a standard design, you get what you get, I'm really happy to hear it's customizable. Now if I can just get my project to the point of needing a panel. ;)

Lynn

N402RH said:
We ended up doing a lot of customization on this RV-10 panel to fit the IFR requirements for Canada. This panel has an extra TCW battery for the Dynon D10A and a Garmin GNC255 Nav/Com.

We do all of our panel design in SolidWorks and provide an approval drawing before building the panel. We find that we usually have the panel design you?re looking for or we can quickly make modifications to fit your requirements.



22702347602_6922e4f73a_b.jpg



Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
Click to expand...
 
One observation, if I may. Why are all of the screens and radio stack so low on the panel? When I do a panel, I always want everything that I look at as high as I can get it (while trying to stay somewhat symmetrical). I try to always put the buttons as low as I can get them, so they are closer to my hands. I know on the 5600 screens that's a mixed bag because often the knob and button being used is at the top of the screen. Also, I understand the radio stack being lower allows for less modification of the center rib. If it were mine, however, I would put both 5600's as high as they will go, possibly requiring a slight modification of the left and right rib, and would move the AP Panel to the bottom, probably directly under where it currently is.
 
Jesse said:
One observation, if I may. Why are all of the screens and radio stack so low on the panel? When I do a panel, I always want everything that I look at as high as I can get it (while trying to stay somewhat symmetrical). I try to always put the buttons as low as I can get them, so they are closer to my hands. I know on the 5600 screens that's a mixed bag because often the knob and button being used is at the top of the screen. Also, I understand the radio stack being lower allows for less modification of the center rib. If it were mine, however, I would put both 5600's as high as they will go, possibly requiring a slight modification of the left and right rib, and would move the AP Panel to the bottom, probably directly under where it currently is.
Click to expand...

We have just gone through this very issue with more than one customer.

The problem with moving the radio stack up is that you must do a lot of modification of the center rib and you also have to modify the roll bar. Since most of the panels that we sell are installed by the customer they end up having to do the modification and they have lots of questions and concerns.

Jesse these are the questions that we usually get:

1. Have you done any engineering to verify that cutting the center rib and lower roll bar and support area will not effect the roll over protection?

2. Has Van's approved the modification and can we get a document saying it is ok?


I have had four different panels in my RV-10 and find having the Autopilot control panel on the top of the EFIS to be the most convenient location.

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
N402RH RV-10
 
I agree that cutting the center rib is not a good idea. I would probably leave the stack where it is, but moving the screens up would be an important change for me, and it wouldn't effect the center rib. The AP Panel could easily go above the stack to allow the screens to be higher.

I have had the AP panel either low on the panel or below the panel in several installations and I find that is a very convenient location for me. To each his own, I guess.
 
Jesse said:
The AP Panel could easily go above the stack to allow the screens to be higher.

To each his own, I guess.
Click to expand...

We work with each customer to figure out what equipment they really need and then design the panel layout they want. We use Solidworks to design the panel in 3d and then get customer approval before we laser it. If you want the EFIS screens moved to the top and you are willing to cut the ribs no problem. We find that most customers would rather not cut the ribs and move the EFIS screens down to clear them.

This is another RV-10 panel with the Autopilot in the center stack that we shipped last week. This panel has become our most popular RV-10 panel and we have 8 of them in stock.
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Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
N402RH RV-10
 
Rob,

Do you guys provide budgetary pricing for a panel like the one shown above?
I haven't even started building yet, but would be interested in a ballpark to see if my
swag at avionics cost for my -10 is reasonable.

I can certainly contact you guys privately.

Thanks!
 
22166455773_da705a2512_b.jpg


This panel is $36,995 for either AF-5600 or Skyview EFIS Screens.


And this is what is included ...
22402053859_84fbe4f8c5_b.jpg


Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
N402RH RV-10
 
Thanks, Rob
I've been budgeting about 40,000 for a well equipped IFR panel.
Looks like my estimate was pretty close.
 
Redbird,

Your panel looks first class. Where did you put your fuses or circuit breakers?
 
219PB said:
Thanks for the link. Are you concerned about being able to get to the fuses in flight?
Click to expand...

You should not be resetting breakers or fuses in flight. If a circuit protection device fails something is wrong and you should trouble shoot it on the ground.

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
 
N402RH said:
22166455773_da705a2512_b.jpg
Click to expand...

Rob, I see that sometimes you have the Dynon D6 back-up EFIS on the far left of the panel and sometimes you have it on the far right of the panel. I have my back-up D6 just to the right of centre and in certain sunny conditions it is very hard to read. It's just not bright enough. I am imagining that it would be even more difficult in certain light conditions for a pilot in the left seat to read that very small instrument all the way over there on the right as you have it. That could put a pilot under a lot of pressure if he really needed the instrument. Why don't you always have it on the left. That would make a lot more sense to me given my experience.
 
Two comments.
1. If you're in bright sunlight you probably don't need a backup EFIS! But that said, it belongs on the left, to (1) make detecting faults easier, and (2) easier to use if you need it.
2. I agree you should limit in flight trouble shooting, but sometimes it may be best to try one reset. (1) I managed to do a full flaps takeoff (CB popped on the runway during a touch and go and I failed to verify the flaps were coming up) but the CB did reset. (2) Alternator CB popped at night. It did reset. (3) I can imagine some emergencies, such as smoke in the cockpit, where I would like to pull breakers. Bottom line: I'd like to be able to easily access breakers or fuses.
 
Doing an in-flight reset of a CB or replacing a fuse will always be a subject with people passionate about which every side of the fence they are on....

If you do a little research, you will find that the FAA and NTSB are not particularly in favor of it.

AC 120-80A (specifically aimed at air carrier operations but many references exist on line implying it being applicable to part 91 operations as well) says...

(1) The FAA reiterates its concern about resetting circuit breakers during flight.
Crewmembers may create a potentially hazardous situation if they reset a circuit breaker without knowing what caused it to trip. You should not reset a tripped circuit breaker in flight unless doing so is consistent with explicit procedures specified in the approved operating manual used by the flightcrew or unless, in the judgment of the captain, resetting the circuit breaker is
absolutely necessary for the safe completion of the flight.

My opinion is that there are very few situations that justify resting breakers in RV's. Particularly with the level of redundancy that is common these days with multiple com radios, back-up batterys on EFIS systems and pocket instrument panels (apps on smart phones, etc.) to use as back-up.

Sighting the tripped flaps CB as an example..... RV's fly (and climb) just fine with the flaps down. I personally would rather fly the pattern and land, and then try a reset on the ground where an electrical fire would then be a much lower risk event. If it doesn't work, and I am away from home base, I can then go through steps to attempt to get the flaps retracted and fly home for a no flap landing.
 
The resetting of CBs in flight is certainly not a black and white matter. It obviously depends on the circumstances. The manufacturers of equipment with crowbar over-voltage devices in them (I have 3 of them in my RV7A) will generally specify CBs so that they can be reset in the event of a transient voltage surge.

I personally prefer CBs over concealed fuses for the following reasons:

1. Very easy and convenient to check them prior to flight, or in-flight if a device malfunctions.
2. Easy to immediately disable a circuit for troubleshooting (great for working on the panel).
3. No need to carry spares.
4. No chance of substituting an incorrect fuse value.
5. No filament to break.
6. Less prone to nuisance "trips".
7. Immediately resettable in flight if required (see comments above).

Having said that I would only use a recognised aviation quality CB such as Klixon and they are a bit pricey. My best guess is that most builders who opt for blade fuses do so to save money. I can't see any other advantage to them.

But in the end I think the integrity of the systems architecture is considerably more important to the outcome of a flight than whether you use breakers or fuses. And that is probably where the AFS Quick Panel system has an advantage.
 
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With the limited panel space in most RV's, the compact fuse panels come in quite handy to power many of the non-essential items. I generally use a combination of the two when doing panel work.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Doing an in-flight reset of a CB or replacing a fuse will always be a subject with people passionate about which every side of the fence they are on....

If you do a little research, you will find that the FAA and NTSB are not particularly in favor of it.

AC 120-80A (specifically aimed at air carrier operations but many references exist on line implying it being applicable to part 91 operations as well) says...

(1) The FAA reiterates its concern about resetting circuit breakers during flight.
Crewmembers may create a potentially hazardous situation if they reset a circuit breaker without knowing what caused it to trip. You should not reset a tripped circuit breaker in flight unless doing so is consistent with explicit procedures specified in the approved operating manual used by the flightcrew or unless, in the judgment of the captain, resetting the circuit breaker is
absolutely necessary for the safe completion of the flight.

My opinion is that there are very few situations that justify resting breakers in RV's. Particularly with the level of redundancy that is common these days with multiple com radios, back-up batterys on EFIS systems and pocket instrument panels (apps on smart phones, etc.) to use as back-up.

Sighting the tripped flaps CB as an example..... RV's fly (and climb) just fine with the flaps down. I personally would rather fly the pattern and land, and then try a reset on the ground where an electrical fire would then be a much lower risk event. If it doesn't work, and I am away from home base, I can then go through steps to attempt to get the flaps retracted and fly home for a no flap landing.
Click to expand...

I agree that fiddling with fuses and breakers in flight is probably not a good idea. :)

For certified aircraft, this bit of Part 23.1357 would be applicable to this discussion -

(d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight.

If the circuit/equipment protected is not "essential to safety in flight" then the protection device does not even have to be accessible to the pilot.

If it is essential, and is fused, you need spare fuses...

(e) For fuses identified as replaceable in flight?

(1) There must be one spare of each rating or 50 percent spare fuses of each rating, whichever is greater; and

(2) The spare fuse(s) must be readily accessible to any required pilot.


Perhaps the big question may be what electrical items on our RVs are essential to safety in flight?
 
Captain Avgas said:
Rob, I see that sometimes you have the Dynon D6 back-up EFIS on the far left of the panel and sometimes you have it on the far right of the panel. I have my back-up D6 just to the right of centre and in certain sunny conditions it is very hard to read. It's just not bright enough. I am imagining that it would be even more difficult in certain light conditions for a pilot in the left seat to read that very small instrument all the way over there on the right as you have it. That could put a pilot under a lot of pressure if he really needed the instrument. Why don't you always have it on the left. That would make a lot more sense to me given my experience.
Click to expand...

We can place the D6 on the left, right or center, it is up to the customer. My personal preference is to us a D2 mounted on the glare shield. The D2 is completely stand alone and GPS based, you can lose the electrical system, pitot and static and you will still have attitude, GPS speed and altitude.

We just finished software for the AF-5000 that lets you display ADAHRS data from the D6 on the AF-5000 EFIS.

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
N402RH RV-10
 
Captain Avgas said:
I personally prefer CBs over concealed fuses for the following reasons:

1. Very easy and convenient to check them prior to flight, or in-flight if a device malfunctions.
2. Easy to immediately disable a circuit for troubleshooting (great for working on the panel).
3. No need to carry spares.
4. No chance of substituting an incorrect fuse value.
5. No filament to break.
6. Less prone to nuisance "trips".
7. Immediately resettable in flight if required (see comments above).

Having said that I would only use a recognised aviation quality CB such as Klixon and they are a bit pricey. My best guess is that most builders who opt for blade fuses do so to save money. I can't see any other advantage to them.

But in the end I think the integrity of the systems architecture is considerably more important to the outcome of a flight than whether you use breakers or fuses. And that is probably where the AFS Quick Panel system has an advantage.
Click to expand...

I would argue that there is no such thing as a "nuisance trip", especially with a Fuse. I mechanical circuit break is an archaic device that is prone to failure. Also look at how many failure prone connections you add with a circuit breaker: wire crimp to ring terminal > ring terminal to CB > CB > to ring terminal > ring terminal crimp to wire. Then to make matters worse you run high current through the switch : wire crimp to terminal > terminal to switch > SWITCH> switch to terminal > terminal crimp to wire .....

A properly designed and installed electrical system should not have nuisance trips. When is the last time you had to reset a circuit breaker in your car? If circuit breakers were more reliable than fuses the automotive companies would still be using them.

An example of why you should not reset a breaker in flight.

Last summer I was flying 3 of my sons friends in the RV-10, none had ever been in a small plane. Just as we were entering the traffic pattern I smelled a small amount of electrical smoke, I flipped off the master and made a normal landing. The EFIS screens all stayed running on the backup battery and none of my passengers had any idea that anything happed. After getting everyone unloaded I turned back on the master and discovered that the nav light circuit breaker in the VPX had tripped. I then decided that I would reset the CB in the VPX, must have just been a nuisance trip. As soon as I reset the breaker the cabin filled with smoke and something was glowing next to my leg on the center console. I have a carbon fiber instrument panel and the main nav power wire had rubbed through and shorted on the carbon fiber center console, it had actually burned the carbon about 1/4".

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
N402RH RV-10
 
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