M

Maxrate

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Here’s the scenario. The aircraft is being sold due to the builder having an unfortunate stroke. He had only taxi tested it and the FAA gave him the 25 mi radius to flight test in. If one were to purchase the aircraft, can the new owner fly off the 40 hours and sign the logbook as phase one completed? Would it need a complete re inspection due to new ownership? Can it be ferried out of the flight test area to a new location for flight testing?
Thanks for the input.
 
Not a DAR, but yes speak to your FSDO or your personal DAR authorization and paper work. Very doable.
 
Any qualified person may fly off the test flights. To move the aircraft to a new flight test area, one would need to have the operating limitations amended.

If the new flight test area is not too far, that can also be incorporated within the new op lims. If it a great distance, it would probably be easier to complete Phase I within the original area.
 
Slightly off topic but:

Maxrate said:
Here’s the scenario. The aircraft is being sold due to the builder having an unfortunate stroke. He had only taxi tested it and the FAA gave him the 25 mi radius to flight test in. If one were to purchase the aircraft, can the new owner fly off the 40 hours and sign the logbook as phase one completed? Would it need a complete re inspection due to new ownership? Can it be ferried out of the flight test area to a new location for flight testing?
Thanks for the input.
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What is the "typical" radius specified? When my last Experimental operating limits where written I was asked if a 50-mile radius was, ok? It was not a RV and much slower, so I said sure. What is typical? It felt like I could have asked for a larger area but with an airframe that flies 50% as fast as an RV didn't think necessary. A 25-mile radius has one doing a lot of turns to stay in the area especially while breaking in an engine.
 
dmattmul said:
What is the "typical" radius specified? When my last Experimental operating limits where written I was asked if a 50-mile radius was, ok? It was not a RV and much slower, so I said sure. What is typical? It felt like I could have asked for a larger area but with an airframe that flies 50% as fast as an RV didn't think necessary. A 25-mile radius has one doing a lot of turns to stay in the area especially while breaking in an engine.
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I have never given a 25 miles radius. Normally I give a 75 mile radius for typical RVs. 50 - 65 for slower aircraft. I can be flexible for special requests and my FAA Office is very accommodating as long as it is reasonable.

25 miles or less might be reasonable for an ultralight type.
 
Mel, Thanks!!

Mel said:
I have never given a 25 miles radius. Normally I give a 75 mile radius for typical RVs. 50 - 65 for slower aircraft. I can be flexible for special requests and my FAA Office is very accommodating as long as it is reasonable.

25 miles or less might be reasonable for an ultralight type.
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For the 14 I was given 50 NM and it felt a little "confining", for the 10 I'll ask for 75. Just FYI you don't need to center the area over your home base and can place the center almost anywhere as long as your home base is in the circle. This is useful if you want to extend the area over less populated areas and/or airports that have cheaper gas.
 
I only got a 25nm radius and yes, I did a lot of turning! Definitely ask for 50 minimum. I would ask high and let him/her walk down like bartering. haha
 
I am on the Southern international border and so I asked for 100mi radius within the bounds of the USA. Why have a limiting radius if I can't fly South at all. Just give me more North.
 
I should have mentioned..........

As Dwight said, the radius doesn't have to be centered on the home airport as long as the home a/p is within the radius. This helps a lot when the home a/p is close to Class B or restricted airspace.
 
Does it have to be a circular area or can it be a rectangular box of equivalent area? Just looking at the MOAs and restricted areas around here it looks like a box might make more use of empty airspace than a circular radius even if it's offset...
 
Negative!

rmartingt said:
Does it have to be a circular area or can it be a rectangular box of equivalent area? Just looking at the MOAs and restricted areas around here it looks like a box might make more use of empty airspace than a circular radius even if it's offset...
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It can be of any shape as long as it is relatively easy to define. A radius is just a simple way of definition.
 
I requested "corners" of my Phase One that just happened to be airports that serve Saturday breakfast. The DAR was fine with this boundary.

I don't understand the issue of flying an RV within a 50mi radius, they are capable of much tighter maneuvering than that..... ;)
 
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rmartingt said:
Does it have to be a circular area or can it be a rectangular box of equivalent area? Just looking at the MOAs and restricted areas around here it looks like a box might make more use of empty airspace than a circular radius even if it's offset...
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I asked for "region bounded by [listed 5 airports], remaining clear of congested areas and Bravo and Charlie airspaces" and my DAR had no problems with it. The area ended up being much smaller than the figures quoted here though. Probably equivalent to about 30 miles radius. I don't feel constrained at all. I've got a huge region of flat Central Valley nothingness to fly over.
 
Draker said:
I asked for "region bounded by [listed 5 airports], remaining clear of congested areas and Bravo and Charlie airspaces" and my DAR had no problems with it....
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Be careful using airports as "corners" or "boundaries" of your flight-test area. You really need to pick a point somewhere just beyond the airport and define it with lat/long coordinates, so that your flight test area includes the entire traffic pattern area of that airport. Using the airport as the defining point means the official lat/long of the airport itself, which is usually near the center of the airport. Doing this excludes that area beyond the center of the airport from your flight-test area, meaning that you can't legally fly a pattern and land or take off at that airport since part of your pattern would be outside your flight test area.

Sometimes there's a conveniently-located intersection that is just beyond the airport far enough to give you room to fly a pattern and land. Otherwise just plot the lat/long of a point beyond the airport and use that as your boundary limit.
 
jnorris said:
Be careful using airports as "corners" or "boundaries" of your flight-test area. You really need to pick a point somewhere just beyond the airport and define it with lat/long coordinates, so that your flight test area includes the entire traffic pattern area of that airport. Using the airport as the defining point means the official lat/long of the airport itself, which is usually near the center of the airport. Doing this excludes that area beyond the center of the airport from your flight-test area, meaning that you can't legally fly a pattern and land or take off at that airport since part of your pattern would be outside your flight test area.

Sometimes there's a conveniently-located intersection that is just beyond the airport far enough to give you room to fly a pattern and land. Otherwise just plot the lat/long of a point beyond the airport and use that as your boundary limit.
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Seriously? In all of EAB, has anyone *ever* had a run-in with the FAA over this nit?
 
Agree with your sentiment, Joe - but you must admit, with ADS-B out giving your flight path and ID for all to see (and in perpetuity on the internet), it would be real easy for them to bust you if they were so inclined.
 
For at least the first few hours of my phase 1 I plan on getting well above the pattern of my home airport and staying within gliding distance of the runway.
I bought a Mooney a few years ago with a very high time engine and sweated out the entire flight from Concorde, NH to Naples, FL expecting a engine failure the entire way. I don't care for that feeling especially when I had to fly over the Chesapeake Bay and lots of empty Florida swamps.
That engine got a immediate overhaul as soon as I got it home.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
Seriously? In all of EAB, has anyone *ever* had a run-in with the FAA over this nit?
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Just because you can get away with something doesn't make it a thing to do. Imagine you're the guy that crashed his 9 during Phase 1 and the insurance company discovered you were beyond your test area. Can you afford that?
I know it's very unlikely but not impossible.
Now imagine everyone decided to not follow procedures because it never bit them. Yet.
 
Tommy123 said:
Just because you can get away with something doesn't make it a thing to do. Imagine you're the guy that crashed his 9 during Phase 1 and the insurance company discovered you were beyond your test area. Can you afford that?
I know it's very unlikely but not impossible.
Now imagine everyone decided to not follow procedures because it never bit them. Yet.
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I'll repeat the question. Has anyone *ever* had this become an issue, either with the FAA or anyone else (being "at" the airport, in the traffic pattern, but "outside" of the Phase I area because one of the boundary points was "at" said airport)?

Same could be said about a Phase I area that is "within an X nautical mile radius of" an airport. Is that the from the centerpoint, the airport reference point, the airport property boundary, a runway threshold, what? If it's a larger airport, that could be a larger distance than any traffic pattern.

It's just my opinion, but this is picking flys**t from pepper.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
Seriously? In all of EAB, has anyone *ever* had a run-in with the FAA over this nit?
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Bill Boyd said:
Agree with your sentiment, Joe - but you must admit, with ADS-B out giving your flight path and ID for all to see (and in perpetuity on the internet), it would be real easy for them to bust you if they were so inclined.
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It isn't about normal operations. The FAA (usually) isn't sitting there watching ADS-B tracks, waiting to bust the first Amateur-Built aircraft that flies outside its flight-test area. It's about what happens when "something happens".

Let's say you were at one of these "boundary" airports and had a problem. you end up landing in a field that happens to be on the outside of your flight-test area as defined in your operating limitations. Do you really want to have both a busted airplane AND the FAA coming after your pilot certificate for operating outside your operating limitations?

Y'all do whatever you want to do. I was just trying to kindly keep you out of potential problems. Sorry I blew up.
 
BobTurner said:
I read the article. One sentence says, ‘Our club owned a homebuilt, not experimental, …’ Any idea what kind of a homebuilt is not experimental?
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The Wright Flyer maybe? I think probably confusion factor.
 
jnorris said:
Let's say you were at one of these "boundary" airports and had a problem. you end up landing in a field that happens to be on the outside of your flight-test area as defined in your operating limitations. Do you really want to have both a busted airplane AND the FAA coming after your pilot certificate for operating outside your operating limitations?
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I'd probably cite 91.3(b):

In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
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jnorris said:
Let's say you were at one of these "boundary" airports and had a problem. you end up landing in a field that happens to be on the outside of your flight-test area as defined in your operating limitations. Do you really want to have both a busted airplane AND the FAA coming after your pilot certificate for operating outside your operating limitations?
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It’s good food for thought. I would think that if it came to legal action, one could argue operating limitations specifying a region “bounded by airport X” include at least the air over the surface level footprint of the airport, if not the traffic pattern. But unless and until some brave soul establishes that in court, who knows? I wouldn’t put it past the FAA to come up with some alternate definition of “bounded” if they were put to the test.
 
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