Saville

Saville

Well Known Member
As I read and re-read the description on Van's QB page, a few questions arise. It says:

"The builder must drill and rivet the one remaining skin, install the control pushrods and blind rivet the composite wingtips to the outboard end. The ailerons and flaps are assembled and attach to the wing with a few bolts and a hingepin. "

Question 1:

What is meant by ailerons and flaps "assembled"? Meaning they are built for you? Or does it mean: "The builder than assembles the ailerons and flaps and attach them to the wing with a few bolts and hinge pin"?

It goes on to say:

"We estimate that a builder working two hours an evening and a long Saturday can complete a wing to flight status in a week."

Question 2:

Does this "flight status" include landing light(s) and wing tip lights? Or do they mean absolute minimum flight status?

Question 3:

If the latter, then I assume one has to cut the hole(s) for any leading edge landing light(s); cut holes in the wingtips for running lights; and thread the wiring for all that inside a QB wing which does not have the final skin panel on, yes?

Question 4:

How hard is it to thread the said wire through the QB wing and provide it with a solid anchoring throughout the run as well as chafing protection?

Thanks!
 
Hey Saville,

1.) Yes, they are built, all riveted and ready to go. I think Van's estimate on the time required for final assembly is a mite optimistic. :D I am extremely pleased with the workmanship of the QB parts.

2.) I'm guessing "flight status" is the bare mimimum---day VFR without lights. All that wiring/crimping/fitting takes time. But it should be said that I work rather slowly and methodically. :)

3.) Yes. Cutouts are different, depending on which lights you use, so Van's doesn't precut anything here. I'm going with a single LED landing light in the wingtip recess, so I won't have to cut an opening in the wing.

4.) My QB wings came with holes and snap bushings for wiring in the wings already, but I think I'll remove them and run conduit the whole way. Access is quite good without the lower skin in place.

On the wingtips, most people will attach them with screws and nutplates rather than blind rivets, for easier access. This is a bit time-consuming as well.

I'd say if you can afford the higher cost of the QB assemblies, it is money well spent!! I'd venture it'll save me at least a year of construction time, maybe more. I enjoy building, but not THAT much, and I'm in awe of those who do the slow builds. ["I am not worthy" emoticon goes here :) ]
 
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Prior Post right on

I did a slow build, but believe all the answers were spot on.

On the last question, before doing the bottom skin (that is why it is off), you do any wiring, and install the pitot tube & plumbing. Or install conduate so that you can wire later.

If you have not done a ton of riveting already, I would guess it will take a bit longer than Van's says, Took about 6 hours per bottom skin for me to do (on a 10) Wingtips w/nutplates took 8-10 hr for the set.

Still a great value.
 
There's actually ALOT more to do than Vans implies and what the previous answers might lead you to believe.

The things that I re-call from building 4+ years ago are:
1. Building up brackets to install ailerons.
2. Riveting aileron brackets to wings
3. Installing hinges on wings to mount flaps. - Not an easy task if want to make sure flaps & ailerons are in alignment.
4. If you're installing conduit, it takes a lot of work to drill the holes in the ribs - especially in the ribs that have already been skinned top & bottom.
5. Are you going to prime everything? If so, add time for that.
6. You have to install the aileron bellcrank and brackets. If you want an autopilot, this is the time to install the autopilot servo bracket.
7. Drilling the hole for the pitot tube must be done with extreme care, since the hole cuts into the main spar.
8. Installing the wing tips is a big job if you are looking for a high degree of fit and finish.
9. Landing lights can be done after the plane if flying, but plan ahead and run the wires ahead of time.

That's that stuff that comes to mind off the top of my head, but don't let me discourage you from building.

The quickbuild will save you TONS of work and for a new builder, the quality of work very good. Probably better then many first time builders could do. However, don't kid yourself, even with a quick build, you won't finish the wings in a week - not even close.
 
easy

The wing is wash primed from vans.
The aileron brackets took me 5 minutes each.
The aileron brackets are impossible to mis-locate, spar is pilot drilled.
Ribs are already drilled for wire run, conduit unnecessary. Just run extra wire if you think you need it.
Again aileron bellcrank is a piece of cake already pilot drilled.
Aligning flaps no big deal.
I did the wings in less than a week each.
The only thing I primed is the close up skin and I riveted it alone.
Also I would suggest you forget the vans pitot tube, and get a proper one. Then there is no need to drill the spar. Also it you want a heated or AOA capable pitot the vans one won't work.
Vans wash primes almost everything and unless you plan to keep the airplane on the beach in my opinion additional priming is just more weight.
I had a 1957 C-182 that had no primer in the wings and in 2010 it showed no corrosion.
Anyway how are you going to prime where ribs meet the skin, pull it all apart?
 
going nuts

It also depends what you want. You can go nuts and spend tons of time doing a lot of things that won't make the airplane any safer or faster or you can build what Vans designed as a simple capable airplane.
As far as painting goes you can spend tons of time and money on a paint job that only a few people at the airport and the line personnel will see.
What do you want to do, build or fly. I assume fly as you're considering a QB.
 
paul mosher said:
The wing is wash primed from vans.
The aileron brackets took me 5 minutes each.
The aileron brackets are impossible to mis-locate, spar is pilot drilled.
Ribs are already drilled for wire run, conduit unnecessary. Just run extra wire if you think you need it.
Again aileron bellcrank is a piece of cake already pilot drilled.
Aligning flaps no big deal.
I did the wings in less than a week each.
The only thing I primed is the close up skin and I riveted it alone.
Also I would suggest you forget the vans pitot tube, and get a proper one. Then there is no need to drill the spar. Also it you want a heated or AOA capable pitot the vans one won't work.
Vans wash primes almost everything and unless you plan to keep the airplane on the beach in my opinion additional priming is just more weight.
I had a 1957 C-182 that had no primer in the wings and in 2010 it showed no corrosion.
Anyway how are you going to prime where ribs meet the skin, pull it all apart?
Click to expand...

Thank you all for the answers.

Yes I thought about the pitot tube after I made the post - I assume one has to cut holes and install that from scratch? What about running the tubing?

Also, can you give me an idea of what fraction of the lower surface of the wing is exposed by the one wing skin NOT installed?

And does the open section run from root to tip? Or is it the outer panel?

And what about the air vent for the fuel tank(s)? Does that have to be done by the builder and done from scratch?


Thanks again.
 
paul mosher said:
The wing is wash primed from vans.
The aileron brackets took me 5 minutes each.
The aileron brackets are impossible to mis-locate, spar is pilot drilled.
Click to expand...

Hmmm so a Van's kit does NOT include everything you need to make a flyable (though maybe rudimentary) airplane?

One must fashion parts from scratch like these brackets?

How much other stuff has to be built from scratch in a QB?

thanks
 
I do not want to detract from your desire to build a Van's aircraft but the work and fabrication on a QB wing kit is the easiest part of a build. You will have much more to worry about rather than these small things.
 
MarkW said:
I do not want to detract from your desire to build a Van's aircraft but the work and fabrication on a QB wing kit is the easiest part of a build. You will have much more to worry about rather than these small things.
Click to expand...

I understand.

I'm trying to get an accurate assessment of what's involved. And this discussion is a discovery.....if I have to make a lot of parts from scratch - if the QB wing kit does not result in a flyable set of wings - then I need to know if I need stuff like a sheet metal break and a shear etc.


Plus there's not a whole lot of statements about the QB fuselage on that page, so there's fewer opportunities for questions to arise about what is said. In perusing the forum I've seen details like canopy frame construction etc. I'm sure instrumentation and engine mounting, baffling, etc is a lot more work. Though..................

Question:

Does one have to have a sheet metal bending machine to bend the fore and aft fuselage skins to shape?


Thanks
 
Saville said:
Hmmm so a Van's kit does NOT include everything you need to make a flyable (though maybe rudimentary) airplane?

One must fashion parts from scratch like these brackets?

How much other stuff has to be built from scratch in a QB?

thanks
Click to expand...

There are two answers to you question. First, the Van's kits are pretty complete, but there will always be additional things to buy - paint, primer, lubricants to start. You'll need an interior. And of course, an engine, prop, wiring.... That said, it is still very complete compared to many other kits. We just ordered a kit from another manufacturer, and it does not include ANY of the hardware. Fortunately, they have a complete hardware list, and Aircraft Spruce has a kit built to that exact list - so you just order it from Spruce.

The second part of the answer is that you get all of the MATERIALS required to fabricate the airframe - but you still have FABRICATE many small parts from those materials. Partly, this is done so that the aircraft will meet the 51% rule - the builder must do a specific amount of fabrication and building to qualify it to be amatuer built. This is why there is a significant tool list required to build. It is still far easier to build a kit than to start from scratch and plans - but it is still a huge commitment of time and energy.

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
There are two answers to you question. First, the Van's kits are pretty complete, but there will always be additional things to buy - paint, primer, lubricants to start. You'll need an interior. And of course, an engine, prop, wiring.... That said, it is still very complete compared to many other kits. We just ordered a kit from another manufacturer, and it does not include ANY of the hardware. Fortunately, they have a complete hardware list, and Aircraft Spruce has a kit built to that exact list - so you just order it from Spruce.

The second part of the answer is that you get all of the MATERIALS required to fabricate the airframe - but you still have FABRICATE many small parts from those materials. Partly, this is done so that the aircraft will meet the 51% rule - the builder must do a specific amount of fabrication and building to qualify it to be amatuer built. This is why there is a significant tool list required to build. It is still far easier to build a kit than to start from scratch and plans - but it is still a huge commitment of time and energy.

Paul
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

So if I understand you correctly, the material to build these brackets comes with the kit but I have to fabricate them?
 
Saville said:
Hi Paul,

So if I understand you correctly, the material to build these brackets comes with the kit but I have to fabricate them?
Click to expand...

Exactly.
A band saw, and files, and a grinding wheel are most used for fabricating.
Very little need for a bending brake. Most bends are done with wood blocks. I did a slow build 10 and only used a bending brake for a few item that were off-plans customizations.

Nothing is hard to do, just 1000s of small things.
Persistence is the key to completion

Lights, switches, wiring , avionics and engine are the only things you must purchase you will end up with others if you are like most builders
 
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Hmmm so a Van's kit does NOT include everything you need to make a flyable (though maybe rudimentary) airplane?

One must fashion parts from scratch like these brackets?

How much other stuff has to be built from scratch in a QB?

thanks
Click to expand...

Well - you do have to make some parts (not many). I recall coming to a part in the plans where I went to the "pile" and searched carefully - three times. Kept going back to plans to get a mental image and even the part number to check for. Until I saw the cryptic little note that said something like "...make from angle...." With that experience, when it came time to put another part on, one that I didn't remember seeing, I just made it (and later discovered that it had been, in fact, in the "pile").

And, you might decide to go off the reservation and change some things - just an example, maybe you'll decide to put the oil cooler on the firewall instead of on the baffle. Whatever parts are necessary to do that are up to you. Hint - make drawings and keep your layout templates.

So, there is the making of parts - no big deal. For me, it was all part of the learning curve and part of the enjoyment of building.

Dan
 
yes

Saville said:
Hi Paul,

So if I understand you correctly, the material to build these brackets comes with the kit but I have to fabricate them?
Click to expand...
They are included, just need to clean them up and rivet together.
The open portion of the wing is inboard bottom approx 30% -40% of the bottom skin. Flat piece of aluminum that is just behind the pre installed leading edge.
Buying a brake is not necessary. You just need to make a few bushings from supplied stock.
Check your pm
 
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not on mine

Not on the ones I just did two months ago. It's the skin at the flap end.
 
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Have a look

Recommend that you find someone (or several) builders in your area and ask them if you may watch, ask questions, participate, etc. You will gain an even greater appreciation both for the people at Van's who designed RVs and for the people who have built them.

The task of constructing an aircraft seemed quite daunting until I was allowed to see and help my new found friends who were building RVs.

This forum is also an excellent source for you as there are experts who can answer most if not all of your questions.

Best of skill to you!:cool:
 
One job after another. . .

I finished my very slow kit back in 97 (no prepunch). 3000 hours of construction time (measuring all the time I was in the garage).
I still get the comment, "Oh, you just put that together from a kit?" - like it was a set of Legos. . .
The kits are very complete - especially QB, but that being said, there is still many things to build. Remember the old expression too, "When you are 90% done, there is still about 50% left to do!"
 
I understand about endless little tasks

I've been rebuilding a 27' 6" wooden sailboat originally constructed in 1919 so I know about zillions of details on a project like this. I understand that realm quite well and since I DO understand about projects like this, I'm trying to find out how that manifests itself in a Van's QB project.

That's why, for example, if I build, I'm going to build a -8. I want a tandem 2 seater so that means either a -4 or a -8. -4 is eliminated immediately because there's no QB for that.

Thanks for all the information....

Have you guys figured out iof the panel is on the inboard or outboard end of the wing?

If not, one of you might have the wing root in the wrong place ;)
 
My calculations show that it's the lower outboard panel. :)

DSC01708.JPG
 
I went to a week long building workshop where we built the tail section for my 7. This was worth it's weight in gold. I had done shop work all my life but never much aluminum. I came home at the end of the week with the the tail feathers built and the know how to get started and also knew most of what tools I would need. With that said it took me a lot longer than Vans said it would to do the Qb wings but that was mostly because I had not ever done a set before. You get faster and more confident with experience.
 
Charles in SC said:
I went to a week long building workshop where we built the tail section for my 7. This was worth it's weight in gold. I had done shop work all my life but never much aluminum. I came home at the end of the week with the the tail feathers built and the know how to get started and also knew most of what tools I would need. With that said it took me a lot longer than Vans said it would to do the Qb wings but that was mostly because I had not ever done a set before. You get faster and more confident with experience.
Click to expand...

Was this a Van's workshop? EAA? Who gave the workshop?
Sounds like an excellent idea.
 
plans

If you want all your questions answered you can get the preview plans from Vans.
 
Other items that the outboard bottom skin area gives access to are:
  • Aileron controls & bellcrank/Autopilot servo
  • Pitot/AOA probe
  • Leading edge landing/taxi lights
 
Saville said:
Was this a Van's workshop? EAA? Who gave the workshop?
Sounds like an excellent idea.
Click to expand...

The work shop I attended was in Griffin, Ga. south of Atlanta. I do not remember the name of the course provider but as I remember it it was the old Alexander Airplane folks. There have been others over the years. There is probably a link to these somewhere. Maybe someone will chime in about it. At the time I did it this one seemed to be the one that offered the most for me.
 
The work shop I attended was in Griffin, Ga. south of Atlanta. I do not remember the name of the course provider but as I remember it it was the old Alexander Airplane folks.
Click to expand...

It was Alexander Tech Center - the RV tail kit construction sessions have long since closed down. Too bad - it was very well done. I'm not sure that I've seen anything since that is quite the same. (For a flat fee, you started Monday morning and left at the end of the week with a completed tail kit, loads of instruction, and first hand use of several variants of tools - by the end of the week you know what you liked and did not.) My suspicion is that ten years ago, there were about one-third of the RVs flying as today. At that time, such a course probably had quite a backlog. As more RVs came on line and the experience base grew, I doubt the course schedule filled up as well, with the inevitable consequences.

Brian Meyette did a writeup on his experience at http://www.meyette.us/AlexanderTechCenterFeedback.htm

Using the "WaybackMachine," an archive of their website (for the most part) is at https://web.archive.org/web/2006042...etnuke/RVTailKitProgram/tabid/52/Default.aspx .

Dan
 
Wow. I am glad I had a different experience! I was there in 2006 and would do it again in a heart beat. They provided me a power hook up and I stayed right out back of the shop in my rv. I am sorry to hear this program is not offered any more.
 
paul mosher said:
If you want all your questions answered you can get the preview plans from Vans.
Click to expand...

Thanks. The problem is that if I'm going to build, I will build an 8. But if I buy, I'm going to buy a 4. In the latter case, I would want to buy -4 plans. And I really only want one set of plane - for whichever a/c I get.
 
Saville said:
How? By working from inboard to out and gently bending the sheet?
Click to expand...

Yes you work inboard to outboard and trailing edge to spar. There are access holes (and cover plates) along the spar that allows you to reach every rivet. On the rv10 wing I was able to do all but about 20 rivets by myself. Smaller wings you may be able to do all of them without help
 
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