jarhead

Well Known Member
Now that I've decided to build an RV-9A, I've got to get a PPL (I suppose it'll help me enjoy the finished product more... :D ). After searching for instruction providers, I've "preliminarily" decided on Via Air at Northeast Philadelphia airport. I know too much about the other two providers on the airport to ever fly one of their airplanes, so they're out...
I came up with a list of questions to ask them, that aren't addressed on the website. Please critique my questions and add any that I missed, but should be asking:

1. Maintenance - Average experience level of mechs/techs? Are annuals done in-house, or by someone else?

2. Gift Certificates - Do you have them for lessons/time? Do they expire?

3. Lessons - If the instructor and airplane are available, and I have the time & money, can I do more than one lesson per day?

4. Do I need my own headset or is one provided? (I'll get my own eventually...)

5. Once I'm licensed, how much notice is generally needed to rent a plane?
 
more questions

Ask about "block time", sometimes an FBO will sell blocks of time at a discount. It helps them as they get more of your money and it makes the per hour rate cheaper for you.

What is the average age of their flight instructors, how much experience do they have?

Do they offer a "PPL package deal", you pay one sum of money that gets your your PPL. Should include flight time, instructor time,written test signoff and test, and may, but probably won't include flight test costs. - Do the math, is this cheaper than doing it hr by hr. Some are fixed number of hours, some are guaranteed to get you your PPL.

I know most of the training airports around these parts off all the above.

Might be worth asking to meet and mini interview a couple of instructor candidates... A good instructor, and one that you can "bond" with, goes along way to getting you done sooner than later. I would recommend staying with one instructor, you'll start to learn what they expect, how they expect it, etc. To have to deal with more than one is usually a setback in your training.

While they are teaching your, you have to make sure you are learning, so ask questions, strive to understand and practice. Just don't become a paper pilot :).

one last thing, might be worth knowing if they have a policy for not instructing in "owners" aircraft. While the 9 prolly won't be build by the time you have your PPL, ya might want to go back to them later, when you have it flying.

Good luck,
Alan
 
Ask how long their students are taking to get their licenses. The local trend seems to be to drain every last dollar out of the few students that are coming through the flight schools doors. If you hear numbers like 100 hours or more you should start to wonder if this is the place for you. I got my license at 45 hours in the San Francisco Bay area with some very complicated airspace to deal with and constant radio work which adds to the time usually. A friend at work just got his license and he had around 125 hours before his checkride. There are CFI's on the list who can give better advice than me, but if I heard an answer over 80 hours per student I'd run.

Since you are going to build an RV-9A try to find a school with a Grumman in the fleet, possably a Cheetah. These planes also have free castoring nosewheels and the transition will be easy to your RV. They will be faster and train you to think ahead further preparing you for the RV. Also they should be more fun to fly than a Cessna 150!

Best of luck,
 
All instructors aren't created equal. Make sure your instructor has good communcation skills. Contrary to aadamson's "stay with one instructor", it might be better to occaisionaly fly with a different instructor. He (she) might give you a different way of looking at a situation. If you encounter a problem that you are having trouble with, it might not be all your problem. That has been my experience. My 2?

Derrell
7a Finish
 
I took lessons from three different people and canned the first two after a couple of hours. The third time was a charm. She was a retired high school principle. She only had around 1000 hours but knew how to teach. It was an enjoyable experience and when I went for my checkride It was like giving someone an airplane ride more than a checkride because I felt confident and well prepaired. To me one of the most important things to look for is a personality match. If you don't Gee-Haw with the instructer you're not gonna have fun and you probably won't finish.
 
All the previous comments are right on target. One thing in particular that can make a big difference in cost is not letting too much time lapse between lessons. I found that I got a lot more out of two or three sessions in one week versus arranging training once every week or so. After I got my ticket, I learned that there are places that will basically make the training a full time thing, they even provide housing. I didn't bother to investigate this since I was already done, but the impression I got was that they put you up in some sort of dorm style deal and you get your ppl in maybe a month. I think the one I saw was in Arizona and the all-inclusive price was a whole lot less than what I paid. Sorry to have so little specific info, but I'm sure others on here will know what I'm talking about. If I had it to do over again, I'd take the time off and go this route.
 
Thanks to everyone for the responses!

I'm definitely in this to learn; in my opinion it's the only way to do it right. I don't want to have just the bare-minimum skills, I want to be good at it. One of the reasons I'm picking PNE is because it's a towered airport, with a busy Class B (PHL) and an active military airfield (NAS Willow Grove - it's on the BRAC list but they'll still be flying out of there for a while) nearby.

I'll have to ask them about giving instruction in a homebuilt - their site says they'll give instruction in "your" airplane, but they're probably referring to spam-cans. It'll probably be a moot point - unless I get a smokin' A&P job or win the lottery, I don't think I can afford the time & money to build the plane and learn to fly at the same time. So the PPL will come first, then the build. I'll have to rent once a month or so during the build to stay current and accrue time & experience - I don't want someone else getting the first flight of my RV, so I need to satisfy the insurance man that I won't ball it up the first time out...
 
re: Some other thoughts

Besides your other questions I would ask about the instructors themselves. How much aviation experience do they have? What aviation experience do they have? Is it all as an instructor or have they done other types of professional flying? What teaching experience do they have both inside and outside of aviation? Any instructors with tail-wheel experience?

Any instructor can be a good regardless of background but in general, the longer they've been teaching the better they'll be at it. The instructors I've had with military backgrounds tended to be pretty good at teaching. A person with a background in teaching (outside of aviation) would also be desireable. Personally, I'd avoid any instructor that had never been inside an airplane until two or three years ago, i.e. the aviation college recent grads. It's not that they're going to be any less qualified to teach. It's just that in my experience I've always learned more and learned more effectively from those with more real-world or non-instructing flying experience.


Also don't be afraid to look elsewhere if you don't like what you see at PNE. Learning off a towered field has it's advantages but given the area you live, you'll get pretty much the same experience dealing with airspace and ATC from any local airport whether you like it or not. Have you checked TTN? It's also towered and has at least one flight school and I believe they will do block time discounts.

Good luck on your journey. You're gonna love it.
 
Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts. I don't even have an RV yet, and the community is taking good care of me. That's a good feeling...

Some of the questions y'all have suggested are covered in their website , but there's too much typing to detail it here, so click the link if youre interested. I'm probably going to pay them a visit this week or next week, to chat and get an initial "feel" for the organization. Maybe I'll find $50 and go for a ride - I haven't been up in a GA airplane since '92...


joe gremlin said:
Also don't be afraid to look elsewhere if you don't like what you see at PNE. Learning off a towered field has it's advantages but given the area you live, you'll get pretty much the same experience dealing with airspace and ATC from any local airport whether you like it or not. Have you checked TTN? It's also towered and has at least one flight school and I believe they will do block time discounts..

Are you referring to Ronson Aviation at TTN, or is there someone else there I missed?
 
pass the written

Before you start shelling out for lessons pass the written. You will have more knowledge of what you are doing and it will be out of the way. Passing it is good for 2 years. I've seen lots of students who haven't studied anything for years get hung up on the test. Good Luck.
 
Hold up, wait! Just a tip.

Before you go too far with searching out an Instructor, you may want to visit a local EAA chapter. There are quite a few in PA, so one or more will probably be close to where you are located.

They will be a great resource to you during the build anyway so visit with them now and you may just save some money while learning to fly. At the very least, you will make some quality friends and have some fun. Some chapters have guys in them that just love to teach, talk and share aviation. I bet if you show up to one of there meetings and mention you are building an RV but haven't been up in a GA aircraft in years, someone will fix that little problem and maybe even in an RV! :cool:

Here's a link to the local chapter locator http://www.eaa.org/chapter/chapter_locator.html. If you aren't already a member then consider joining. You don't have to join a local chapter to be a member.

Good luck with your search!
Rat
 
jarhead said:
Are you referring to Ronson Aviation at TTN, or is there someone else there I missed?

It's not Ronson. It's called Royal Karina Air Service. It just so happens I still have the info pak I picked up from them in my file. Their number is 877-996-7771. It looks like they have 3 172s a 172RG and a 182. According to the info pak they also have a FRASCA 141 simulator. It says they give a $50 credit for every $500 put on account. The suggestion to check out your local EAA chapter is a good one as well.
 
CFI questions

Hi, I have been a CFI, II, MEI for 14 years. I am not active as an instructor but my tickets are current. First it is OK to ask how many hours or experience the instructor or mechanic has but I would not go with that question personally. The FAA, thru the FAR's dictate aircraft maintenance and the qualification and licensing of Instructors and Mechanics. SO there should be some level of safety there, but there are important issues for the student, like will I be able to get a plane when I want one.

As far as age or experience I get real mad when people put down CFI's with little or no knowledge of what the profession involves. I did my time, about 1800 hours dual given and still counting, and loved it. I loved helping people get their wings so to speak. Although I fly a Boeing now, I still have great respect for any instructor, C-150 to B777. A new instructor may be just fine, although an instructor that has at least one past private pilot completion, thru successful check ride, is a plus.

With that said there are good instructors and not so good instructors, it is like anything, but more grey hair is not necessarily the key. It is also chemistry (personalities) between you and the instructor. You are the customer and you get to choose, but you also should plan on getting an instructor and sticking with them. Staying with one instructor is totally to your benifit. Once the instructor is chosen they are the boss so to speak, but it is a boss you can fire. If it is not jiving a switch may be in order. It is rare but it happens. I only "lost" one student. I would not solo him (I could not he scared me). He went on to fly with another instructor and another and than disappeared. Its not always the instructors fault either.


Like anything, shop around. First go and visit all the FBO/Flight schools in your area. Go for a "demo flight" at every one of the potential schools. They usually offer a discount for the first flight, which is a good deal. That 20-30 minute "demo" can be logged, so be sure one of the first things you buy is a little student / pilot flight log book. Don't get a huge Captains log, just a standard pilot log is fine. Log the demo time and have the CFI sign it, with his Lic#, date and description what you did. It may not get you your licence sooner, but it is good practice to log your time.

Chances you are not going to take a "demo" with every instructor; that would be a waste, but at least you will get a feel for a few different instructors, one of which may be the one. Even if you don't think its the school for you, it may be worth while to do the demo, if nothing else for a cheaper lesson. You want to visit at differnt times, week day and week end. Meet as many of the instructors for a face to face casually chat. Also ask the person behind the counter about the instructors, "what's Joe like"; they might have a "Bio" or "MO" to give you; "He is a great instructor but he has chronic gas". :eek: NEXT. I am joking of course but you might glean some insight or useful info about the instructors from the staff.

Some instructors may only work evenings or weekends. That my be convenient for you if you have a 9-5 Yob. May be you are self employed or want to fly early morning or noon? Never the less meet them, talk to a few and most important talk to some students, ones that completed or near complete. Good instructors are busy by word of mouth. Nuff said.

Maintenance is important, but you want a fleet that is available. If they have one C152 and that is what you are flying it WILL be down or not available for many reasons. The more planes the better. Go look at it. Is it tired looking? Ask to see the log books. Its a business and like all business they have amenities. Is this a place you would want to rent after you licence?

I would suggest you plan to start in the spring and finish before late fall so there are no (less) weather delays. Stretching out a program past 6 months is too long. You should have your life arranged so you have time to fly at least 2 or even 3 times a week. If you go weeks between flights you forget and are wasting time. Continuity is very important. Set the check ride, figuratively on the first day for flight instruction. Get the PTT (practical test standard). now I have addressed flight training. The ground instruction and test prep is something you can start anytime and can self study or take a home course on DVD, internet, books and tapes. How do you learn? Do you like to read? You like a live lectures. Ground and flight compliment each other but they are not mutually inclusive. In fact you can take your written with ZERO flight hours, but that's not ideal. Some overlap with gound and flight training is best. You will need a CFI's approval or a graduation certificate to take the written test.

My personal techniques or rules for student pilots are: Keep flight lessons short in the early phase of training, no more than a hour total Blk to Blk.(students get tired and anything over that is a waste). No need to bore holes in the sky looking at the country side. Get away for the airport and do air-work, don't pound out 20 T/G's the first lessons. Sure 1 or 2 T/G's as part of every lesson after returning from the air-work is fine. You have to learn to fly first before doing the pattern work. Regardless rule one keep it short. When you leave the pattern there should be instruction going on the whole time. Intense but short lessons are most efficient. I say 2/3rds of my private students finished in approx 50 hours or less, of those quite a few in the low 40's. The national average is much higher. (I guess around 60-70 hours, don't know the current average any more). The reason it takes longer is inconsistent training schedule, instructor's not planning well, like they only do dual, and before you know it you have 40 hours. Than you and the instructor say, hey you need to do more SOLO! Once you first solo you need to continue to solo concurrently with your dual instruction, not solo as an after thought. The FAA changed the ratio of solo to dual, which was 20/20. I think 20 hours of dual is plenty for the average pilot. Remember these are MINs not required. You can always do more. Any way when you do your first solo (wear an old shirt that day :rolleyes: ), make sure you continue to solo after that.

(NOTE: Any mention of HOURS to complete a milestone is approx, and really it means nothing. EVERYONE is differnt and takes different times. Never get crazy about soloing in X hours or taking you check ride with Y hours. Hours in the FAR's are mins. The instructor will tell you when you are ready. Training is not hours or doing XYZ it is training to proficiency. Remember to have fun by the way, because that is what its all about. You should always be aware of the "completion standards" or the criteria you're being measured by. The PTT (Prct. Test Std.) is very critical to that understanding. Like in level flight you must maintain your altitude and heading by a certain amount. The instructor should not have to tell you being 100 feet off is not acceptable standards, you should know, for example.)


If your RV-9A is not ready for a while, you have time. You can do all your training in a Cessna but suggest you try some dual or even check out in a low wing plane like a Piper or other low wing plane before flying your RV-9A. Of course transition training with a CFI in a RV9A is highly recommended. If you have any specific questions, write me at [email protected]. George
 
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Total newbie Q? here [I'm a CPA and won't have time to start until post 4-15 and my plan is to begin then and have my PPL before winter]:

I'm a good student, quick learn, self study type.

What are the 1 - 3 best self study ground school programs one can buy?

Probably not an issue practically [b/c I imagine I'll be like most and not be ready after the minimum # of hours] but do you get 'credit' for some in air hours by taking classroom flight school?

thanks,

John
 
Training

George said:
Keep flight lessons short in the early phase of training, no more than a hour total Blk to Blk.(students get tired and anything over that is a waste). No need to bore holes in the sky looking at the country side.
Very true. I'd also get the instructor to offer some kind of syllabus to give you an idea of what you will be doing in the coming lessons. More shorter lessons are better for the student, and longer lessons are better for the instructor and flight school.

John said:
What are the 1 - 3 best self study ground school programs one can buy?
Rod Machado's Private Pilot Handbook is good. http://www.rodmachado.com/ Also, there are FAA tests you can download on your PDA and test yourself anytime you have a couple of minutes. The Sporty's DVDs are also good, IMHO. Just expose yourself to as much of these various systems as you can, and you'll have no problem with the written. The FAA written is easy - if you study.
 
Deuskid said:
Probably not an issue practically [b/c I imagine I'll be like most and not be ready after the minimum # of hours] but do you get 'credit' for some in air hours by taking classroom flight school?
Flight hours are just that, hours in the airplane. Hours in a classroom don't count toward that. The exception being hours in an approved simulator. I'd have to check the regs to see how many if any hours in a simulator can be applied toward a private certificate. That being said, written test prep classes can be a great way to get ready for the written test.

Personally, I read Rod Machado's book and used the computer versions of the King courses for all my written tests. Now that I'm getting into IT I can say that if John & Martha put out a course on A+, Net+ or any of the Microsoft certs, I'd be the first one in line to buy them.
 
gmcjetpilot said:
My personal techniques or rules for student pilots are: Keep flight lessons short in the early phase of training, no more than a hour total Blk to Blk.(students get tired and anything over that is a waste). write me at [email protected]. George

What is Blk to Blk? Black?, Block? Are you saying only an hour 'in the air' or ???

thanks,

John
 
rv8ch said:
Also, there are FAA tests you can download on your PDA and test yourself anytime you have a couple of minutes. The Sporty's DVDs are also good, IMHO. Just expose yourself to as much of these various systems as you can, and you'll have no problem with the written. The FAA written is easy - if you study.

Any link for downloading the FAA tests?

thanks,

John