Corey Fisher

I'm New Here
How do commercial airliners perform weight and balance calculations? It would seem the variables change for each flight.

How do the pilots know the takeoff weight of the aircraft before pushoff? Are there "scales" on the landing gear?

How do the pilots adjust the CG of the aircraft?




Just some questions from someone training for a PPL. Its really amazing how much I don't know about things I take for granted...

Thanks
Corey
 
The ops agents use load planning software, input the data and transmit it to the acft via ACARS (email)
 
Corey,
I have flown for two different airlines, and it was done differently at each. At my current airline we have a central load planning office that calculates this for us. They have the info for each individual aircraft on file, and after the baggage and cargo are loaded, they use that weight along with the passenger count and seating to give us what we call "final weights" along with our trim setting based on cg. We also use the final weights to determine our thrust settings as most takeoffs are done at reduced thrust settings.
At my previous airline we did the weight and balance ourselves. When the aircraft was loaded the ramp personnel would tell us how many bags had been loaded in each cargo pit and the flight attendants would tell us how many passengers were sitting in each "zone". The aircraft was divided into 4 different zones and all bags and passengers were assumed to weigh a standard weight, which differed between summer and winter. With this information we would enter a chart to check our cg and determine our trim setting.
As far as adjusting the cg, cargo can be moved from one cargo pit to another. Also at times we have to move passengers from one area of the aircraft to another.
Hope I answered your questions, Mark.
 
Sumo Wrestlers?

Corey Fisher said:
How do commercial airliners perform weight and balance calculations? It would seem the variables change for each flight.

How do the pilots know the takeoff weight of the aircraft before pushoff? Are there "scales" on the landing gear?

How do the pilots adjust the CG of the aircraft?




Just some questions from someone training for a PPL. Its really amazing how much I don't know about things I take for granted...

Thanks
Corey

Corey, The short answer is Yes. Various systems are used (and approved by the FAA) at different airlines to calculate weight and balance. The bottom line is that the Captain has to be aware of, and agree to the loading of the aircraft. Average weights are used, but you would be surprised how accurate the system is. When I was a chief pilot we did routine audits of the "average" numbers. Also, the flight crew can ask for "real" weights if there is a question. I remember one of the questions I had on an oral exam. "You are watching the passengers board and notice 10 sumo wrestlers being seated. do you use standard weights?" Of course not.

John Clark ATP CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Just like a RV just more

Corey Fisher said:
How do commercial airliners perform weight and balance calculations? It would seem the variables change for each flight.
Yes

How do the pilots know the takeoff weight of the aircraft before pushoff? Are there "scales" on the landing gear?
Just like an RV, there is a BOW (basic op weight including the crew and number of flight attendants for the flight). Just like a RV it is weighed at some point in its basic flight configuration. Unlike little planes the BOW includes the crew which is based on standard weights (given by the FAA). For little planes its up to the PIC to either measure or estimate the weight of passengers and payload.

Standard weights are also used for passengers and their carry on. There are seasonal variation, in the winter higher weights are used for passengers than summer. The flight attendants actually count the passengers and give "the count" to flight crew, usually broken down into zones, front, mid, aft. Also there are corrections to BOW, like variation for full food and beverage or less, 3/4, 1/2 and 1/4 or ferry. Small regional planes are not going to have as many corrections since they carry just ice, drinks and peanuts.

The KEY is a lot of W&B on large planes are estimated on a average or standard weight, weight of passengers and bags are average and based on FAA regs. Exceptions are when doing charters with athletes or military. Since their weight's are not standard, actual weights are used, not the standard average. In the latter case the military gives you an actual measured weight of the personal with all their gear, including weapons. (It's kind of weird to see all M-4 or M-16's laying on the floor of your plane.) God bless the America and all the Military men and woman, and to all those who have lost their lives on 9/11 and in the fight against our enemies.


How do the pilots adjust the aircraft CG?
You can move cargo from the front or rear lower cargo holds. You some times have to ask passengers to move forward or aft when the plane is not full and too many passengers are sitting at one end of the plane.

If you are too heavy some times you have to leave fuel behind. We have the MIN FUEL for take off but often carry contingency fuel (extra cover your tail fuel). As Captain you can leave that behind but not less than MIN T/O FUEL. If you can't get the max takeoff weight down just on fuel you some times have to leave cargo behind, including checked luggage which is carried later by another plane. That typically happens on smaller airliners. I can say the B757/767 can haul the payload and fuel unless the runway is real weight limited due to short length and/or high density altitude. They just can haul a lot with lots of fuel which is nice. Not all planes can carry full fuel and all the pay load. The C-172 is an example. Its impossible to fly 4 adults in the plane with out leaving some fuel behind. With bags forget it. The C-182 is a true 4-place plane. Just because it has 4 seats does not mean its a 4-seat plane.


Just some questions from someone training for a PPL. Its really amazing how much I don't know about things I take for granted... Thanks Corey
An airliner is just like any plane just a lot longer and bigger numbers. To make it easy airlines like Southwest flight crews have laptop in every plane, allowing crews to just punch the basic numbers in, while the computer fills in many standard numbers you normally need to look up, like the BOW or takeoff performance limited weight for that runway.

Other wise all airlines use or have a W&B form with "index numbers" which is a short hand method calculating Wt x Arm. The form allows easier organization of numbers and has all the reference numbers for that airplane on the form. Regardless it takes a fast FO about 2 to 3 minutes to fill in a blank W&B from in from scratch. That is when you hear the Captain say, we are finishing up paper work, they are doing the W&B. They have to weight to the last minute to get the number of bags in the belly and cargo, passenger count (by zones) and fuel. Usually its the last thing done, and as soon as the W&B is done (in duplicate or triplicate) one copy goes to the gate agent and the door is closed. Airliners must leave records behind and of course carry a copy on board.

There are still lots of numbers to add and check. Large aircraft have other limits, ZFW - zero fuel weight, max taxi, max takeoff (varies with every runway and every condition winds, temps) and any reduction due to contaminated runway or MEL (min equip list & deduction for an inop item). It is more complicated than a Cessna but really its just the same thing, CG = sum(weigh x arm) / total weight. Once you do it 1000 times you can do it in your sleep, still mistakes can be made so take your time and do it right.
 
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Answer from retired Airline Pilot

Corey Fisher said:
How do commercial airliners perform weight and balance calculations? It would seem the variables change for each flight.

How do the pilots know the takeoff weight of the aircraft before pushoff? Are there "scales" on the landing gear?

How do the pilots adjust the CG of the aircraft?
\
Just some questions from someone training for a PPL. Its really amazing how much I don't know about things I take for granted...

Thanks
Corey

The short-short answer is it's all done by computer, the crew has little to do with the actual calculations.

Shotly after push back, ACARS prints a final weight and balance on a piece of paper about 3 inche long. The crew does check that the aircraft is not over a predetermined max gross weight for the take off and landing runway, the stabilizer trim is set for the cg, sets decision, rotate, and take off speeds on the ASI, and whether a reduced thrust take off is permitted.

Before computers, the crew performed all those functions with charts and graphs, but after doing it for a while it did not take long. Co-pilots got real good at it as some Captains taxied fast. :)

In post computer times when the computer is down, the flight does not take off. That happens now and then and the whole country goes nuts with delays.


 
Very interesting everyone! I knew I'd get great answers.

I must admit I'm surprised to find that its still based on averages. It would seem that the average weight of 170lbs is not correct anymore, and that 25lbs of luggage should also be suspect.

Anyway thanks again.

-corey
 
Corey Fisher said:
Very interesting everyone! I knew I'd get great answers.

I must admit I'm surprised to find that its still based on averages. It would seem that the average weight of 170lbs is not correct anymore, and that 25lbs of luggage should also be suspect.

Anyway thanks again.

-corey

If the public is unhappy with delays today, they would really be unhappy if everything had to be weighed....the 8 am flight will leave at noon tomorrow.

Truth is, the big 121 operators do not have the equipment to weigh people, they can weigh bags but not people unless folks will jump up on the bag scale. I once had the Penn State football team show up on a scheduled flight out of Reno, we should have weighed them as they did not average anything near 170 lbs. Sometimes, when a flight is over its max weight, the agent will go through and count kids, they go in the system at something less than the average weight. Part 135 operators do weigh people when loading smaller airplanes like the twin Otter. I've seen that operation in Alaska.

Life is a big fudge in many ways....:)
 
gmcjetpilot said:
Other wise all airlines use or have a W&B form with "index numbers" which is a short hand method calculating Wt x Arm. The form allows easier organization of numbers and has all the reference numbers for that airplane on the form. Regardless it takes a fast FO about 2 to 3 minutes to fill in a blank W&B from in from scratch. That is when you hear the Captain say, we are finishing up paper work, they are doing the W&B. They have to weight to the last minute to get the number of bags in the belly and cargo, passenger count (by zones) and fuel. Usually its the last thing done, and as soon as the W&B is done (in duplicate or triplicate) one copy goes to the gate agent and the door is closed. Airliners must leave records behind and of course carry a copy on board.

I've never seen or used a W&B form like this in 12 years of airline flying, so not all airlines do it that way, apparently. Our gate agents are not involved in the process in any way. At my airline, when you hear the Captain say "we're finishing up the paperwork," it's usually a maintenance deferral, or he's waiting for a fuel sheet from the fueling crew. Or he's looking for his pension. :eek:
 
We let load control worry about it.. :)

The ACARS spits out a stab trim number and off we go.. :D
 
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Some do it manually

Thanks David for the SHORT answer.
Some airlines not all have (*)ACARS and can get the W&B sent to FMS and other airlines do it on paper. SouthWest and think JetBlue use a laptop computers the pilots enter data on. Many airlines still use a form and calculate it manually. The Boeing 747 did have some system to measure weight and balance from the gear years ago, before my time. I understand it was an option and not many people bought it, may be because it did not work well.

** ACARS - Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (or ACARS) is a digital data-link system for transmission of messages between aircraft & grd stations via radio or satellite. Not all airlines have ACARS. Most business jets don't. It's only been around since the early 90's. It's too costly to install the system in older planes.

It would seem that the average weight of 170lbs is not correct anymore, and that 25lbs of luggage should also be suspect. -corey
Well there was a case of a Beech 1900 that crashed in North Carolina due to a maintenance issue with the trim system, but it was over weight due to using standard weight bags and not noting overweight baggage. LINK The EXTRA heavy bags where loaded and not accounted for, making the out of trim condition worse. Its just not practical to weigh every person. Can you imagine some folks would not like to be weighed. When flying military personal we get the actual weight from the military. They weigh them because the std weights don't fit. Same with athletic team charters.

I've never seen or used a W&B form like this in 12 years of airline flying, so not all airlines do it that way, apparently. :eek:
Yep poor airlines do it manually. The majors have all the ACARS goodies and SAT COM. Nice and I'm jealous. Datalink interface between the ACARS MUs and Flight management systems (FMS) was introduced in the early 1990's. You make it sound like its always been around. You must be a golden headed boy if you never did manual W&B on the line. Our planes are not wired for it. Retrofit cost unbelievable cash. Therefore we even make departure and arrival calls by radio. Crude I know.
 
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acars

ACARS has been around since the 70's. just not in the nice touch screen computer format that you are used to seeing. The old teledyne units had about 9 buttons on it and you could send and receive data in 2 digit codes.

We used to carry around a giant binder with performance pages for each runway at each airport we operated at.The flight engineer would calculate
runway limit( can I take off in that distance) performance limit( can I climb out if I loose an engine) at max take-off thrust and at reduced thrust. He filled out a plastic flip card with all of the data for the pilots. Then on taxi out they would change runways and you had to start all over.

Ahhhh, the good old days!
 
There's an old ground school ditty that goes:
"Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a crayon, cut it with an axe"
That adage really has a lot of applications in Airline operations, especially weight and balance.
A lot of voodoo determines a trim setting to the tenth of a unit (and some Cappys are pretty anal about that tenth). That's what the computer tells you the airplane wants, but the airplane, like all women, will soon tell you exactly what she wants for a trim setting as soon as you liftoff and we instinctively give it to her without a second thought. A majority of the time she wants something quite different than the computer thought she would.
The bigger the airplane, but bigger the envelope slop and the more inconsequential the individual weight units. However, turning the autopilot off in cruise, it is quite easy to feel a flight attendant walking around the cabin. (especially if she is senior).:)
 
We're diving

When I first started flyin 19 seat turbo prop commuter's long a go, with no flight attendendant, no autopilot, I could tell a passenger was coming forward to the cockpit. Significantly more back pressure was needed to maintain altitude as the CG shifted. Usually the passenger was coming up to tell us something like, "I have to use the restroom", 20 minutes into a one hour+30 flight. No lavatory on a 19 seat turboprop. One time on a 1.5 hr flight, which turned into 3 hours due to weather, sick bags where used for unauthorized purposes by some passengers, needless to say, eweee. Some older passengers did not make it and just weeeeed in their seats. Now you know why we have 30 seat regional jets with Lavs. :eek:
 
weight shifting?

Standard weights are also used for passengers and their carry on. There are seasonal variation, in the winter higher weights are used for passengers than summer.

So was this because people gain weight in the winter or heaver people fly more in the winter?

Kent
 
So was this because people gain weight in the winter or heaver people fly more in the winter?

Kent

It's because people wear more/heavier clothes in winter, ie coats, sweaters, hats, gloves...it all adds up:D
 
Back in the ooooooooooold days!

Yeah, I can remember carrying those gross wt. manuals when I was a B-727 Flight Engineer....UGH! As others have said, trying to use a very sharp pencil to make legal a heavy airplane, and keep within limits of runway performance, second segment climb performance, and structural limitations. Departing out of Denver on a hot summer day with a stretch B-727 with only the JT8D-9 engines and packs off unpressurized!! ....WWHHOOOWEEEE! After accelerating for what seemed forever and when V1 was called.... I will swear to this day that there is no way in heck that in the event of an aborted takeoff, you could stop that aircraft at V1(or a nano second prior) on the remaining runway. ....I guess the very fine pencil and the very fine aircraft engineers knew otherwise though.

Our airline now gets all the pertinent loading data from the ramp folks, who call it in to one place at our headquarters and that load planner comes up with all the weight and balance data, including the stab trim setting, and sends it to us over the ACARS. ....So when the company computers or ACARS goes down, so sits the airline...waiting...waiting....waiting... At least now, even our "heavy" airplanes climb out like homesick angels with all the power these newer engines have!

There's something to be said for the oooooooold days in the commuter ranks when you did your own weight and balance on a preprinted form, made sure your CG was within limits, and flew away totally independant of ground computers. And yes, you could certainly tell when people were moving about back in the cabin, with the change in pitch trim needed on the yoke.
 
Correcting CG changes...

There's something to be said for the oooooooold days in the commuter ranks when you did your own weight and balance on a preprinted form, made sure your CG was within limits, and flew away totally independant of ground computers. And yes, you could certainly tell when people were moving about back in the cabin, with the change in pitch trim needed on the yoke.

Back around 1990 I was taking a 6 month "PC" (check ride) in an SA-227 Metroliner. Three of us aboard, I'm flying, check airman in the right seat, another captain waiting his turn in the back. During the checkride my pal in the back decides it would be amusing to run up and down the aisle. The Metro had a rather slow electric trim so I was having to work rather hard to hold altitude. I told the check airman what was going on and he told me to be ready to push the nose down. :) On his call, I gently but firmly pitched down. It was timed perfectly, the lad in the back was floating in space about halfway down the cabin. A gentle recovery deposited him on the floor laughing. But he did stay put for the rest of the ride.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
We used to run MX flights from STL to MQY and often this flight would operate as the company commuter shuttle..

Guys used to do all sorts of strange things to the unfortunately souls required to fly us home.. :)
 
Tactical Form F's

I have to prepare W&B sheets as a collateral duty. We call them Tactical Form "F"s. I used to do it long hand (still can...we get inspected on it) but Lockhead Martin wrote this great software for the Air Force called AWBS (Air Force Weight and Balance System). Works great lasts long time...unless your computer crashes...then you're in trouble.

The secret here is to have canned forms based on various common configurations (i.e. If a plane is a tanker then we have a form with a 5 wet configuration - A Super Hornet with five full drop tanks). So when the pilot walks, they read the "Book" and take note of the form particulars on the form F (W&B form).

An interesting spin on this is with an expendable load. Many of us that fly larger aircraft (Or have to catch a wire on an aircraft carrier) take into account Max. Landing Weight (counting on burning fuel) but what about bombs and ammunition? To further complicate it, what about aircraft that fly at Mach speeds and retain the spent cartridges (so they don't get sucked down the intake) but expense the bullet? Again, an approximation is made (It's not like it's Rocket Scien...wait it is).

I won't even get into the swags made for the catapult launches...do you want your neck broke or do you want to settle below the flight deck on take off? Hmmm..
 
Back around 1990 I was taking a 6 month "PC" (check ride) in an SA-227 Metroliner. Three of us aboard, I'm flying, check airman in the right seat, another captain waiting his turn in the back. During the checkride my pal in the back decides it would be amusing to run up and down the aisle. The Metro had a rather slow electric trim so I was having to work rather hard to hold altitude. I told the check airman what was going on and he told me to be ready to push the nose down. :) On his call, I gently but firmly pitched down. It was timed perfectly, the lad in the back was floating in space about halfway down the cabin. A gentle recovery deposited him on the floor laughing. But he did stay put for the rest of the ride.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Whoa, that sounds awfully familiar. Was that at SkyWest? I might have been the guy that gave you that ride. The date sounds about right and your name does ring a bell.
 
Another little bit of fun involved messin' with your First Officer. I used to fly the DHC-6 Twin Otter ( about 3,000 hrs worth), and as my F/O would be droning along with me being the non-flying pilot, I would ever so slowly put some foot pressure on one of the rudders, all the while staring out the window. He would instinctively add a little rudder trim to get it just right. So then I would add some more foot pressure until he added more trim. This sequence would continue for a few more times, until I would then ever so slowly begin reducing foot pressure a little at a time. The F/O would then still instinctively trim out the rudder trim...you know...to get it just right! If you were really good at this, you could do this a few times and never get caught. He would simply complain about what a bent and twisted airplane it was!

The gig was usually up if you couldn't continue staring out the window. A little smirk on your face was usually a dead give-a-way!
 
ACARS

Maybe we should get some of these fellows off the edge of their seats.

Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (or ACARS) is a digital datalink system for transmission of small messages between aircraft and ground stations via radio or satellite. The protocol was defined in the 1970s and uses telex formats. It will be superseded by the Aeronautical Telecommunications Network (ATN) protocol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS

An extremley handy device.
 
Yep poor airlines do it manually. The majors have all the ACARS goodies and SAT COM. Nice and I'm jealous. Datalink interface between the ACARS MUs and Flight management systems (FMS) was introduced in the early 1990's.

You would be surprised how many 'majors' over here in Europe do not use ACARS for loadsheets, and not because we are poor either - we operate 45 aeroplanes to worldwide destinations

Manual loadsheets are still done by lots of operators for the simple reason that they are quick and accurate. I can do a load and drop line trim sheet for our A320, 321 or 330 in about 5 minutes, that includes a crosscheck from the F/O. To be fair, most of our large departure airports are set up for the despatcher to do a computerised load and trim sheet based on the actual mass of that tail number in the config we are using. We then calculate the performance either out of the perf book or, if the QNH is lower than standard, we get the planners to do it on the FOVE computer - it uses better algorithms from Airbus and allows better flex in low pressures.

Now, where we are at present - out in Indonesia flying Hajj pilgrims, we go back to manual loadsheets at all despatches because we have special reduced Hajj weights for the pilgrims - Indonesians aren't very big !

Seeing 405 smiling pilgrims looking at you as you go to the can on our 330 makes you feel - er needed ! 230 tonnes MTOW, 9:20 flight time to Jeddah and no beer for 3 days when you get there :(

Still, I have Padang to look forward to tomorrow, the earthquake yesterday was only 5.1 on the Richter scale..............
 
Back around 1990 I was taking a 6 month "PC" (check ride) in an SA-227 Metroliner. Three of us aboard, I'm flying, check airman in the right seat, another captain waiting his turn in the back. During the checkride my pal in the back decides it would be amusing to run up and down the aisle.
Nice story, but kudos to whoever it was who figured out how to move quickly in a Metro! I always felt like I was getting frog-marched boarding them. As one QX Capitan called it, "The Tunnel at the End of the Tunnel".

TODR
 
The competition!

Whoa, that sounds awfully familiar. Was that at SkyWest? I might have been the guy that gave you that ride. The date sounds about right and your name does ring a bell.

Sorry I was with the competition, American Eagle, Wings West.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Nice story, but kudos to whoever it was who figured out how to move quickly in a Metro! I always felt like I was getting frog-marched boarding them. As one QX Capitan called it, "The Tunnel at the End of the Tunnel".

TODR

TODR,
You're right it was a good trick, made more difficult by the fact that he was a big ape. Hey, look at the bright side, at least it wasn't a Jetstream, he would have fallen over the spar!

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA