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AirbusPilot

Well Known Member
Hi Folk,

I am almost ready to maiden my 8, two weeks ago I flew with Alex in his 7 and I feel confortable flying the plane and doing 3 point landing. The thing is that I am a little bit worry about 7 and 8 CG location for 3 point landing.

Here is my 8 configuration:

IO-360-M1B and CS Hartzell Prop
Oddysay 680 and whelen strobe box at the back

Empty weight is 1110 Lbs. and Empty CG is at forward limit 15% MAC
Pilot weight (Me) is 155 Lbs and I will load with half tanks 20 gallons that is 120 Lbs.

My question is how much weight do I have to add to rear baggage aerea to have enought elevator control to flare and land my 8 safetely doing a 3 point landing like I did with the 7.

Waiting for your advices;)
 
Congratulations Fernando!

With you at 155 lbs, I don't think you'll need weight back there. I'm 190 and fly my buddy's -4 with no weight in the back and can easily 3 point....these airplanes have a lot of control authority. If you'd feel better, try 50 lbs and see how it feels.

Best,

ps Did you overcome all the airport problems you had earlier? I remember you having grief with the authorities a while back.
 
pierre smith said:
With you at 155 lbs, I don't think you'll need weight back there. I'm 190 and fly my buddy's -4 with no weight in the back and can easily 3 point....these airplanes have a lot of control authority. If you'd feel better, try 50 lbs and see how it feels.

Best,

ps Did you overcome all the airport problems you had earlier? I remember you having grief with the authorities a while back.
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Hi Piere,

Thanks for the answer, Yes I ended up moving by ground my plane to another airport, but Chilean FAA help me to, they got me a special track and personnel for free (Thank to my Lawyer).

Cheers,

Fernando
 
I agree with Pierre Fernando - the CG should be just fine solo - you'll have plenty of margin. You'll probably eventually like it with a case o foil in the back to make pitch a little lighter, but either way it is completely flyable.

Paul
 
Be very careful getting slow and low in the 3 point attitude. I made a 3 pt on my first landing. I ran out of elevator and lift at about 2-3' agl and bounced *real* high.

Just remember that the -8 likes to wheel land. You can 3-pt it, but it's not real comfortable, IMO. Just be careful (low speed and low alt) until you get the picture and learn to manage the energy.

Mine's got a 160 hp and CS prop. Battery on the firewall. No ballast in the back and had ~1/2 tanks for that first flight if I recall - but that was some 1180 hrs ago.

Paul's recommendation of adding a case of oil is a good suggestion.
 
I agree with the group. Don't worry about your CG, it's fine. You might want to consider a wheel landing on your first few in the RV-8. They are a little easier/more forgiving, and more tollerant of CG location. I had an RV-6 and it landed better in a 3-point than my RV-8 does. The RV-8 gear is much stiffer. I usually land 3-point in my -8 now for less tire wear, but the wheel landing is easier and a greaser every time is almost guaranteed. Congratualtions on your impending first flight. Have fun!!!

Scott
RV-8 FB
 
Landing the 8

I agree that the CG is fine however a little weight in the back such as a case of oil makes this airplane much easier to land well. The 8 is not great in the 3 point anyway so I would put some weight in the back. Wheel landing this airplane is how I believe you should land this airplane most of the time (unless short field). You need this skill for cross winds as well.

Pat Stewart
(2) 8's
J3Cub
RV10 building
 
3 point landing RV-8

Hi Airbus, I have found that the best way to 3 point the RV-8 solo, is to fly final at 65kts with about 25% power. This will give you a slight decent in a 3 point attitude. Fly it to touch down and pull the power off. If you try to do a power off 3 point landing, it is difficult to get the tail down. Since you most likely will not feel comfortable flying this slow on your first flight, I would suggest that you do a wheel landing. Wheel landing are very easy in the RV-8. Good Luck
 
My big problem is that I have never land a plane on wheels, I have just performed 3 point landing on Cessna 180, PA-18, Aeronca Champion and RV-7, 20 hours total time. None of the Intructor that I flew with wanted to teach to land on wheels, they said you are OK to fly the plane doing 3 point landing, after a few hours you are going to start landing on wheells by your own. So I need to land my 8 at least for the first hours on 3 point.

Please advise Maiden is coming soon:eek:
 
Don't try to wheel land it without having mastered the art with an instructor. You have to do things while wheel landing that are contrary to what you have been doing...if you fail to get it right, you can make a spectacle of yourself as you bounce down the runway in ever increasing leaps...

When you wheel land, you must slightly push the stick forward at the moment of contact. If you fail to do this, you are almost sure to bounce back into the air because your tail will drop and your AOA will increase. Most people are afraid to push the stick fearing a prop strike.

If you apply brakes while up on the mains, you must remember to slightly pull the stick aft to null out the nose bob which will occur while braking.

Having said all this, I find the wheel landings to be much easier than 3 pointers in the -8, and I am a low-hour rookie pilot.
 
AirbusPilot said:
My big problem is that I have never land a plane on wheels, I have just performed 3 point landing .............
Please advise Maiden is coming soon:eek:
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You need to be *fully tailwheel competent* before attempting a first flight alone in your -8. Wheel landings, 3 pt, short field, crosswind, botched landing go arounds, bounced landings with no power added, etc, etc. Not that you'll need to be able to handle all those scenarios for the first few flights - but you might, and it'll raise your overall level of competence with a conventional gear light airplane. Your instructors did you no favor steering you clear of wheel landings.

Get in that PA-18 and go do some one-wheel touch and gos in a crosswind. Practice cross controlling the plane and making it fly (roll) down the runway on one wheel for 30 seconds or so. Then lift off and fly it down the runway on the other wheel. That'll be a start.
 
Fernando -

I am afraid that I have to agree with Bryan completely - if you are not 100% comfortable with all types of landings you could get in to with a taildragger (or a nose-dragger for that matter, if that's what you're flying), then doing a "First Flight" might not be a good idea. I made the first flight in my RV-8 without ever having flown an -8 before, but I had three decades of tailwheel flying, and many different types of airplane in my logbook.

I know from your writings here that you are a high-time pilot, but if you haven't been exposed to, and gotten competent in, ALL the various ways in which a taildragger can arrive on the ground, then I'd suggest getting some more practice with wheel landings or see if someone else can make the first flight. I know that would be a tough choice, but it is a beautiful airplane, and you'd hate to damage years of great work just to make an arbitrary date for a flight.

I know there are many folks that will rationalize that you should just go and three-point it, but I can tell you that landing an -8 three-point is actually more difficult than wheel-landing it, because it is NOT done flying in the three-point attitude. You have to three-wheel it on.

Paul
 
Just did my first flight

Fernando,
I just recently did my first flight in the 8. My eight is equipped very much like yours, weighs almost the same, same engine etc... I also went and flew with Alex so I think I can make a few informed comments. I've also got about 400 hours of RV time in 9's and minimal taildragger experience.

1. Alex teaches ONLY 3 points in the 7. I had to force him to SHOW ME a wheel landing and he really didn't want too. I also had to force him to show me stalls. I highly recommend doing a couple of stalls on you're first flight so that you can be confident with your airspeed choice.

2. You really need to get a taildragger instructor to get you comfortable with wheel landings because that's the way that you're going to want to land the 8 most of the time. It behaves really well in wheel landings. 3 points are okay too but a bit tougher to get just right.

3. Alex teachs you to approach WAY TOO FAST. (IMHO) All RV's need to slow down too land well. If you force the landing at higher speeds they'll start bouncing and hopping. If you hold it off until its slow you'll burn up a bunch of runway. There is absolutely no need to be approaching at 80 -85 knots in the 8. A 70 knot approach is rock solid and gives plenty of energy to pull power and flair with a wheel landing. It provides a nice stablized approach that doesn't require you to float down the runway for a quarter of a mile in ground effect. Note that I work off of 2200' of grass so I'm sensitve to getting the speed right. 70 works fine (calm conditions) and I bet you can go slower when you're really comfortable in the airplane.

4. Make sure that you have good intersection fairings on the gear to fuselage intersection. These make a big difference in the stall speeds on 8's. My '8 is buffeting at 50KIAS and breaking at 48-49 KIAS (full flaps). This is at about 1600 lbs weight and CG 20% back from front edge of the envelop.

Good luck and have fun.


AirbusPilot said:
My big problem is that I have never land a plane on wheels, I have just performed 3 point landing on Cessna 180, PA-18, Aeronca Champion and RV-7, 20 hours total time. None of the Intructor that I flew with wanted to teach to land on wheels, they said you are OK to fly the plane doing 3 point landing, after a few hours you are going to start landing on wheells by your own. So I need to land my 8 at least for the first hours on 3 point.

Please advise Maiden is coming soon:eek:
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Fernando...

I will disagree with some of the posters above ;)

You posted:
and 8 CG location for 3 point landing.
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Empty weight is 1110 Lbs. and Empty CG is at forward limit 15% MAC
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My question is how much weight do I have to add to rear baggage aerea to have enought elevator control to flare and land my 8 safetely doing a 3 point landing like I did with the 7
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and they are some perceptive points/questions.

First of all, and this in only in my opinion / experience, the RV-8 CG does need to be taken into account for landing type, especially at the testing stage. The Test Pilot who did our RV-8 put some ballast in the back, and for the 2 RV-8s I have done the inital test flying, so have I... in each case because 3 point landings were desired. Incidentally, all 3 RV-8s I refer to were of similar configs and CG to yours (ours is 1106/78.59" v Fwd Limit 78.70"). Solo without ballast and 3 point is a challenge - you really have to work at it to keep it off the ground until the right attitude, and in my experience, you are right on back stick.

Wheeler or 3 point? There are a number of factors which you choose to do... We fly dual more often than solo, and it 3 points just fine dual. It is harder to wheeler dual well, and I would avoid for a first flight anyway - anything to keep the energy low on landing helps. Solo it does wheel nicely, but you need to be happy with that, and it needs to be the right surface.

I suspect the "wheel it every time" advocates tend to fly solo more often, and typically have 6000' of hard concrete :cool: In a country where 1500' of rough grass is more typical, I wonder whether they would still prefer to wheel it on :eek:

To answer your question, 2 comments:
1. First, you have decided to 3 point it, so I would advise getting the CG aft. In that you will be solo, ~50lbs (secured) in the rear baggage area. I've just run the calcs, and that puts you mid CG range, and I cannot think of a better place anyway for a first flight.
2. As to whether you should undertake the first flight, it is really up to you. You have some advice above... If you limit the conditions to those where a 3 point is OK i.e. not significant crosswinds, and you are confident in 3 pointing it, then fine. Even if you get wheeler trained on a Cub, not sure I would translate that straight to an RV-8 1st flight.

Hope that's of some use :rolleyes:

Andy (Hill)
RV-8 G-HILZ
 
Further to David's points, please NB his speeds are for his RV-8 / ASI. I have seen variations of 15K due ASI "issues" and these will only really come to light on/after the first flight.

We use 75K on base, 70K on finals with a minimum of 65K on entry to the flare normally. For our (short) strip I will fly 60-65K final, but knowing I will use power to get "round the corner" in the flare.

For a first flight, I'd keep the speed on the high side, and use a long runway, until you get a feel for the landing characteristics and ASI readings on your 8.

Andy
 
Thanks again for you replies.

Here is a few point.

1. I feel completely comfortable with high performance aircraft so I am not going to have problems with the 8 at least in the air.

2. I will give my 8 to a more experience pilot but in Chile here is not too many pilot that fly tail dragger and/or RVs. At least I have flown a 7 for a few hour.

3. I will be flying from a 3000' hard surface field with no obstacles.

4. I will fly on morning with no winds.

So big question is, will my 8 able to 3 point like the 7 did???, because I am not going to try to land on wheels.

And if I really need to have a full taildragger Instruction to fly my 8 for the first time, I will need to make arrangement for holidays in some country where I may get that, because that is almost impossible here in Chile.

Please advise???
 
3 points

I'm pretty new to the '8, but Andy's points seem about right. I suspect that 3 points would feel better with the CG about in the middle of the range instead of in the forward quarter. I've done a couple of 3 points and it does take a pretty good pull to get the nose high enough. A more aft CG would help. The good news here is that when (not if) you bounce a landing, its well behaved. Just keep it straight and don't give up on it. It'll settle down in a bit.

Andy's speeds sound pretty similar to mine. My advice on new airplanes is to do some stalls (just nibble at them) on the first flight so that you can see if you're airspeed makes any kind of sense. You should have an idea of where it should be from Vans numbers, etc... If its buffeting at 60 knots then I wouldn't us 70 down final. Its just a judgment thing.

I am based on 2200' of grass so first flight on a mile long runway wasn't terribly practical. I think if you pick your speed appropriately your 3000' is more than ample.

I'm definitely still in the getting to know you phase of this airplane. My RV-9A fits like an old shoe now, but the 8's not there yet.:D
 
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