J

jantar

Member
I need to place an order for wings, but I still have not decided if I should go with QB or SB. How much time did you really save going with a QB. Did anyone do a real world analysis, meaning counting hours?

What else did you take into account when making this decision?

SB and QB comments very appreciated?
 
If you like long manotanas hours of rivet banging and taking thousands of chances of putting dents and or smilies from a rivet set in the skins then go slow build. If you want to fly and only back rivet a few places here and there go Quick Build. Slow wings and a quick fuse sold me. The future holds only QB. For me it was not only the time but it was about how much I enjoy smashing rivets. I found that I am not that keen on riveting and it was worth it to spend the extra. Good luck.
 
Looking back at my logs, I spent about 60 hrs on each QB wing. That included installing Duckworks landing lights, the wing tip with nut plates, the lights and lenses in the tips, wiring, and pitot tube. I think the QB is the way to go and probably cut building time by 60-70%. Maybe an average speed builder can tells us how many hours they spent on slowbuild wings doing comparable things.

Roberta
 
If I had it to do again, and take this with a grain of salt because I haven't started on the fuselage yet, but I would go slow build fuselage and QB wings. The wings, as far as I can tell, are BORING.

Thing is, though, except for the fuel tanks it doesn't seem like you get much bang for the buck with QB wings. Just looking through all of the assembly steps, it doesn't look like there's more than a couple of months worth of work there if you work on it every night. Mine are going slow but that's only because I've been busy at work and only putting 2 or 3 hours into it a week.
 
Last edited:
It depends on what kind of work you like to do. I like sheet metal work so slow build is the only way since a QB minimizes those tasks. Wiring and plumbing is not my favorite work and, unfortunately, there is no way short of contracting out the work to complete an airplane by avoiding those chores. For your info I built an early drill your own RV6 doing everything slow build myself including spars in 4000 hours in 4 years. I will be a repeat offender and QB will NOT be a consideration as I enjoy the shopwork. My RV6 will provide a flyable airplane while I build however so I will not be "ground bound" while building. Obviously, saving time was not an issue. and, since I am retired, it still isn't.

Dick DeCramer
N500DD 120+ hours
Northfield, MN
 
Depends on your experience as to how much you save

jantar said:
I need to place an order for wings, but I still have not decided if I should go with QB or SB. How much time did you really save going with a QB. Did anyone do a real world analysis, meaning counting hours?

What else did you take into account when making this decision?

SB and QB comments very appreciated?
Click to expand...

I watched two RV7 QB's being built next to my slowbuild RV9. One 7 was being built by a builder that had already built an RV4 the other by a first time builder. What I noticed was for an experienced builder the QB's save quite a bit of time. I'm not sure how much time they save a new builder. I've seen quite a few first time QB builders just stare at their plane trying to figure out what to do next, they just didn't have the momentum and confidence of building all the easy parts. I started my slowbuild 9 after the two QB 7's where started, I flew my 9 about 4 months after the experience 7 builder. The first time 7 QB builder should be doing an engine start soon, more than a year after I flew my plane. Now to be fare I was working on my plane more that the new builder.

Now if you really want to go with at least one part as a QB, go with the wings. The fuselage isn't as repetative as the wings and I think it's easier to match the QB quality in the fuselage than the wings.

I'm working on a Harmon Rocket right now, it's so far off the scale in amount of work compared to either the SB or QB of the prepunched planes that that I now view my prepunched SB 9 as a QB airplane.
 
slow/fast

I chose slow-build wings and fast-build fuse.

The rationale was that I would have trouble finding a bucking buddy (true), and that the fuse needed more help for riveting (also true).

In my project, I probably had a total of 8 hours of bucking buddy help. It would have been easier to have more help, of course. Thats one reason the project took so long... I made special fixtures and developed procedures for single-person riveting.

I also found the wings tedious to build (ribs, ribs and more ribs).

Next time, it will be QB the whole way, so I can concentrate on the fun stuff (panel, wiring).

Vern
9A
 
You'll get more gain on the calendar per $ of QB with the fuse. Yes, wings are repetitious, but that's why you can knock 'em out quick. Besides piles of identical or nearly so parts, one is a mirror of the other. Use production batch processing and mindset, and you'll blow right through the wings. Unless you're short, fat, or comic book hero muscular, you can do most of your own riveting except for the top skins; each wing required just 3 hours of bucking buddy. The fuse drags on forever because nearly every part is a learning experience not to be repeated, except left/right oftentimes, and there are more parts to the fuse than hamburgers sold by Mickie D's. If the QB fuse has the tailcone complete and the rear deck riveted, that eliminates the most difficult fit-up tasks on the whole airframe. My SB wings took 300 hours total. SB fuse is at 550, but it is maybe 150 hours past equaling the QB as delivered. Ya pays yer money and takes yer choice. Ken Scott once opined that QB everything saves ~400 hours, but I think that would be more like 5-600 hours if you've never built and airplane.

John Siebold
Flying 7
-7 airframe complete
 
Last edited:
I wanted to spend more time on stuff I like to work on, electronics.
I wanted to spend less time doing things twice, like the wings.
I didn't mind doing things once, like the fuselage.
And I wanted to build the plane in under two years.
I went QB wings and SB fuselage. If I had to do it over I would
go QB all the way and get flying faster and concentrate on the electronics
again. For the money and time, and time is money, you can't beat
the price of a QB, if you have a full time job. If you are retired and
building the airplane is your job then SB all the way and enjoy it.
 
jantar said:
I need to place an order for wings, but I still have not decided if I should go with QB or SB. How much time did you really save going with a QB. Did anyone do a real world analysis, meaning counting hours?

What else did you take into account when making this decision?

SB and QB comments very appreciated?
Click to expand...


All you asked about was time saved by going with a QB. I wouldn't have saved any time by going with QB so I ordered SLOW BUILD wings. How? Well the wait for 8 QB wings was a few months. Now it's only about 3 months but only about 2 months for SB wings. In the time it would have taken to get the QB wings, I built the SB wings. I admit I have more time to spend on my -8 than some so QB vs SB wasn't a big decision for me.

Having said that, IF I get to build another RV it will be a QB. This is my second project. I have found that a lot of people downplay the amount of work involved in building an airplane. I have told several potential builders I could teach them how to set a rivet, it's the next 17,999 that they have to worry about. Some of the cheap projects I have seen sold because people run out of dedication before they run out of rivets would have been completed if they had gone with a QB. Please don't think I'm saying you don't have the dedication, if you have the time and dedication it really doesn't matter other than the cash. If you have anything in your life that could get in the way of building then spend the cash, you'll be glad you did.

From the looks of things right now, you could have a -7 fasted if you go QB, only 1 month lead time. If you choose a 10 it's a 16 week wait. Looks like Van's is doing great both with orders and deliveries.
 
Last edited:
Ohhh my gosh, I'd definitely go QB again. But that's just me and my life situation right now. However, I think the QB is a superb value. It easily saved me 1.5 - 2 years based on how much free time I have right now.

I also enjoy the aircraft systems - electrical, fuel/brake lines, engine stuff - so that really helped. If you really enjoy the metal work, then you might consider the slow build. In the end, you'll still have to do the all the systems.

It all comes down to time and money (I know - all your time and all your money)... but I do consider the QB a good value.
 
FWIW, A friend who had built a 6, built his slow build -8 wings in 3 months.

For me, my -9 tanks were a pain. A compromise would be to buy the prebuilt tanks and go with the slow build wings. Costs about $1,000 for the tanks, if my memory is correct.

After looking at some QB fuselages, it looks like thye don't do any difficult work for you; what they do looks to be pretty straight forward. So if I were to start over, I would do the QB wings or prebuilt tanks and SB fuselage if I had to choose. But then, I haven't started on the fuselage yet, so what do I know?
 
Reality check on rivetting

I'm building a complete slo-build and I'm past QB stage. In the course of building I've seen many other RV projects at various stages of completion. Here are a few of my observations. As always, they're only rash generalisations. There will always be exceptions:

1. What I've observed is that builders who embark on slow-build projects generally have little concept of their ultimate need for rivetting partners. Let me put it this way....unless you have access to good bucking buddies you cannot hope to emulate the quality of a QB kit. That stands to reason because the QB kits are all rivetted two-up by experienced operators.

2. Many builders consider that QB kits are top quality. But they're not...they're just "OK". In general a close inspection will reveal that they're churned out at a frenetic pace and contain inevitable rough patches. It's all a matter of relativity....the QBs are highly regarded because most of the SBs are primarily rivetted one-up and don't come out that well. But I've seen SBs rivetted two-up by experienced operators and they are much better than any QB (but there's not a lot of them around).

3. Sometimes it's a Catch 22 situation. The person most likely to want to spend a lifetime beavering in his workshop is often the person who is not interested in a socially gregarious lifestyle...and therefore may not have a large pool of aquaintances from which to pluck bucking buddies. So in the end they start rivetting on their own...and the end result is rarely top quality.

4. Getting good quality partners to assist with rivetting is generally a major problem. For a start you're always dependent on their largess and generosity...so you have to work when it suits them. And then you generally need a range of partners because no-one except a person who owes you his life is going to want to keep labouring day after day after day. The final result is that there ends up being multiple partners with little or no experience. These inexperienced partners are very likely to put serious dings (or dongs) in your beautiful project. And what will you do then......well, you'll lie......you'll bite your tongue and muster a very feeble smile and say to your partner: "never mind...it's OK". Because if you don't, you'll eventually have no rivetting partners and no friends either. Do you catch my drift.

5. Quick Build projects are often of better quality than Slow Build projects...but only up to the end of the prefabricated sections....then they're often worse. It stands to reason. QB builders just don't develop the skills of SB builders. As a general rule I can look at a QB project and see the delineation between the factory workmanship and the builder workmanship (and there's usually a lot of difference).

Conclusions: SBs can be of better quality than QBs, but not if you rivet them one-up. Getting, and keeping, experienced bucking partners can be a very real challenge. If you don't have access to a small pool of rivetting partners that you can train and re-use then you're probably better off going for a QB.
 
I think the QB vs. non-QB question depends on the builder. A QB isn't necessarily going to get in the air faster than another builder's slow build. It would get in the air faster than the SAME builder's slow-build.

I know a guy who's been building his plane as long as I have. He's got a QB. I've got a slo-build. His is at an airport. Mine is in my garage. Guess who's going to have more time to work on the plane? Me, the slow build guy.

It all depends on what your life is like, where you're building and how much time YOU can devote to a project.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.