blueflyer

Well Known Member
1. My left mag has the impulse coupler, so to start, my right mag must be off.
2. I want to use 2 toggle switches for my magnetos and a push button starter button on my Infinity grip. During starting procedures, I want to turn both toggle switches to the "on" position
3. I want to put a normally closed momentary push button on my throttle in order to turn off the right mag while starting. So, when I push the Normally Closed momentary push button on my throttle, while pressing the starter button, everything will work as it should.

Below is where I believe the Normally Closed momentary push button should be placed. Is my placement of the push button correct?

 
Sorry, but the schematic you have is all wrong. Mag switches provide a ground to kill the mags. Turning the mag switches on merely removes the ground. You have power being sent to the mag p leads--that won't work. I think you are making a lot of work for yourself in trying to add another switch to kill the right mag during start--- just don't turn it on until after start.
 
Another question. Why do you want to turn off the P mag during start up? Larry
 
Adding two steps--turning the mag on (opening the ground) then closing it again with a pushbutton while starting--is making things way too complicated.

For operational simplicity I would either leave the mag off when starting, or make your start button a momentary DPST that energizes the starter and grounds that mag out at the same time. The first is easier to wire.
To clarify, that would be parallel ground paths for that mag. Either switch could ground it.
 
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jabarr's comments are right on the money, technically. Your mag toggle switches need to apply ground to the P-leads to stop the sparks from being made. Do a search on the forums here for ignition toggle switch - a few minutes of reading will save you hours of re-wiring frustration.

More importantly, grounding out the P-leads is something that must be done with surety. Failure to ground a P-lead will result in a "hot" mag, and, ultimately, somebody will get hurt or killed by touching a prop when they thought the ignitions were turned off. Having two switches to control the mag doubles the probability of a switch failing to make contact, resulting in a "hot" mag. Not good, plain and simple.

I don't know if you've ever tried holding two switches while jockeying a throttle trying to get a start. This is a recipe for disaster - sooner or later you're going to let one switch go, and either stop cranking or turn on the right mag during cranking, resulting in increased kickback potential.

Put your ignition toggle switches in an easily accessed place. Turn the left mag on, hit the starter button. Once the engine is running in a stable fashion you can then take your hand off the throttle and turn on your right mag.

Don't think this will work? Take a look at all the Grumman Travelers, Cheetahs and Tigers. That's how they are wired. A 4-position key switch (Off, Right, Left, Both) is used, and beside it is a momentary contact starter button. Starting procedure is to turn the key to the Left position, hit the starter button, and once the engine is running, turn the key to the "Both" position. Those airplanes have been flying like that since the early 70's and nobody complains about not getting their engines started. The engine will start and run fine on the left mag for the few seconds it takes to get the engine stabilized and to move your hand to the toggle switch. I say this from personal experience, starting a Grumman in some of the more difficult starting conditions (OAT = -20 degrees C). This process works. You don't have to bring the Right mag on line the instant the first spark plug fires on the left mag. Take your time, flip on the right mag once the engine is running. It will become quite automatic. If you're worried about running on only one mag because you forgot to turn on the Right toggle switch, well, you ARE going to do a run-up, aren't you? You ARE going to cycle both mags off and on, so you'll catch this little lapse in attention, should it ever happen.

The momentary mag switch on the throttle is, plain and simple, an unwise idea. At its worst it's not just unwise but is an unsafe idea. The control of something as critical as ignition is where you want to apply the KISS principle to the max.
 
Do not put the engine start switch on the stick. I tried this once and quickly figured out it was a very bad idea.

Infinity stick buttons are for stuff you use a lot in flight - not just one time to get the engine started.

Carl
 
I see I failed to draw the schematic properly....I was taking it directly from Bob Knuckoll's Z-11 diagram. Anyway, considering the negative feedback about putting a momentary off button on the throttle, I guess I should reconsider.

I have always flown with an ignition keyed switch for starting. I was trying to keep from relearning the steps I would take during an "in-air, engine out/re-start" scenario.

Using toggle switches, I would have to re-train my brain during the in-flight engine out to reach up and turn the right mag switch off in order to attempt a restart. That's not intuitive at all for me.

Maybe I should reconsider the use of toggle switches and stick with a keyed ignition switch, which is what I'm used to using. Thanks for the feedback.
 
I see I failed to draw the schematic properly....I was taking it directly from Bob Knuckoll's Z-11 diagram. Anyway, considering the negative feedback about putting a momentary off button on the throttle, I guess I should reconsider.

I have always flown with an ignition keyed switch for starting. I was trying to keep from relearning the steps I would take during an "in-air, engine out/re-start" scenario.

Using toggle switches, I would have to re-train my brain during the in-flight engine out to reach up and turn the right mag switch off in order to attempt a restart. That's not intuitive at all for me.

Maybe I should reconsider the use of toggle switches and stick with a keyed ignition switch, which is what I'm used to using. Thanks for the feedback.

During an in-flight restart the prop will be windmilling plenty fast enough to safely use both mags for the restart.

My RV-6 has toggles since it started flying in 1999 and I've never wanted to go back to a keyed switch. You will be retraining your brain when you transition to the RV, toggle switches will be the least of your recalibration. :)
 
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Engine out doesn't mean that the engine isn't turning

If memory serves, during flight testing, one of our most knowledgeable flight testers wanted to stop the prop to get data on prop-not-turning glide performance. It took about two minutes with the engine not firing to stop the prop while flying just at the edge of a stall.

So, you don't need the starter to rectify an engine failure unless the airspeed has decayed below stall.

Cheers, David
RV-6A KBTF
 
Do not put the engine start switch on the stick. I tried this once and quickly figured out it was a very bad idea.

Infinity stick buttons are for stuff you use a lot in flight - not just one time to get the engine started.

Carl

6 years and love the starter switch on the stick! Seems like a great place to me :D
 
You can achieve what you were looking for with a small modification to your schematic.

For both Mag switches, use a DPDT (On-On) switch. No center position, just up and down. On one set of poles, you wire the power through the circuit to the starter. On the other set of poles, you wire the ground for the P-Leads. With the switch one way, it will open the ground for the mag, and closes the circuit for the power. With the switch the other way, it opens the power circuit, and grounds the mag.

Personally I have three toggles in my panel. L Mag, R Mag, and a Start toggle with a flip-down guard. I turn Left mag on, flip the guard up on the starter, start, and once running flip the guard down and turn the Right mag on. All with one hand, while holding the stick in the other. You don't need to move the throttle when starting, you'll figure out where it needs to be.
 
Another option

There is still an option to provide the fail safe you are looking for. It's possible to use a switch with dual circuits, one for providing ground for the mag, and the other to provide power to the starter. With the mag on, the starter won't engage, turn the mag off (grounded) and power is supplied to the starter button.

I'f I've missed something I'm open to feedback from the group.

Brian