K

kmuller

I'm New Here
Hello..first post for this noob. Although I always thought I would build, I am currently looking at a built RV6A that presents some logistical problems.

When I describe this, some here will probably recognize the owner/plane.. I know he has posted here in the past. It's a 2003 6A, looks real nice, well built, and when I searched on the N number I found the guy's builder's website with detailed pics of the plane under construction. Also turns out the builder is an A&P and has been giving RV builders workshops. So far so good!.. until I notice that there's come significant differences with the plane after it was built as opposed to the current pictures in the ad.

Yep.. turns out there was an incident - hard landing, then nose gear collapse taxing in resulting in a tip over. The new engine was torn down as per insurance with nothing found. The plane was repaired - the tip up canopy was converted to a slider in the process and a complete 7A empannage was used. It was repainted, and a new (nicer) panel configuration was put in. The plane has not flown since last summer because the owner's medical expired and he wants to retire and move south. He says he's been starting the engine fairly regularly every since. The plane has under 100 hours, including pre and post accident. Now conventional wisdom might say to turn in the other direction and run, but for the fact that it might be a very well built RV.. maybe better than I'm likely to find elsewhere.

First question... this sounds like a 'major' incident to me and TAP's evaluator says to discount about 10K. Sound reasonable? The other thing is it's not insured now and the owner is not current... any advice as to how to get over this hurdle? I have no time in RV's and have contacted a few of the recommended transitional training guys.

Sorry for the long post... any wisdom appreciated.

Kerry M
 
Hmmmm....

If you had already built an RV, I'd say go for it. If you have several nearby friends who have built RVs, I'd say go for it. But if don't have personal experience with one or a reliable support network, I'd suggest you find one that hasn't had any significant problems. I'd leave a damaged/repaired bird for someone who can keep an eye on things and make repairs/adjustments as necessary. With such a good selection of RVs for sale these days, you'd be better off without one that you know has already had trouble.

Just my opinion.
 
Here is my 2cents worth on airplanes that have been damaged and repaired. They are the best value on the market if the repair was done correctly. I have seen some NDH airplanes that I would run away from and also several that had been obviously repaired and there was no logbook entry. Sounds like it is a good solid airplane. If you can get someone experienced to inspect it it is probably just fine. My friend bought a 6A that was rebuilt from a hangar door falling on it. It has the 7 tail and wingtips on it and it is a good looking nice flying 6. Don
 
I went through this myself, i purchased a bird that had some damage history also. But i looked it over very closely, and had a independent A&P look over her. So far i have 50 hours flown with very little problems. The main thing to look for is the engine, that was my main concern and in all realty it can be a gamble.

Mike

:D
 
I've owned two Cessnas that had some previous damage. Not as bad as the flip over you describe but still some damage to the leading edge of one wing. Every prospective buyer got nervous about the repairs, even when the A&P/AI who did the work was right there explaining everything.

I bought the planes at a discount because of the damage, sold them at a discount, but it was a hassle selling them! It took longer and was more hassle to explain the damage and show the logbooks and coordinate a meeting with the A&P.

I'm not saying not to do it. I just want you to be aware of another set of problems that you might encounter.
 
yakdriver said:
Here is my 2cents worth on airplanes that have been damaged and repaired. They are the best value on the market if the repair was done correctly. I have seen some NDH airplanes that I would run away from and also several that had been obviously repaired and there was no logbook entry. Sounds like it is a good solid airplane. If you can get someone experienced to inspect it it is probably just fine. My friend bought a 6A that was rebuilt from a hangar door falling on it. It has the 7 tail and wingtips on it and it is a good looking nice flying 6. Don
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I couldn't agree with Don more and I have personal experience.

I have an RV-6A that I have rebuilt. I will eventually sell it, and yes it now has a damage history that is well documented in the log books and in most peoples mind it will have a lower dollar value. The problem with RV's and resale value...they are not built assembly line style with all of them exactly (as much as certificated airplanes ever are) the same.

With out going into details, because of the numerous construction errors found during the rebuild (some of which may have contributed to some of the damage) and other fit and finish quality issues (I have built more than a dozen RV's so I have the benefit of more experience than a first time builder has), the airplane I rebuilt is actually much better than it would have been if someone purchased it before the damage occurred. So it is sad that people would pass it up when I decide to sell it.
The entire emp. is new, all skins on the fuselage have been replaced (except for the two aft turtle deck skins), the outboard L.E. skin on the right wing was replaced, new firewall, etc., etc. There is no bondo on this airplane. The engine was totally gone through at Aerosport power, and received a new crank shaft.

So I couldn't agree with Don more... Damage history should not be reason to pass up a possibly good airplane. The Key is if it was repaired properly. It is imperative that someone with experience constructing the same model being considered, look the airplane over closely before purchase because just like Don mentioned, I have worked on some RV's that were very poorly repaired or even still had damage that was left unrepaired.
 
Good point

Bubble head brings up a good point. If you decided to sell the airplane in the future, are you going to have trouble. People will be nervous about an airplane that has had significant damage. Not suggesting you run the other way, but resale is something you should consider.
 
Yep, if I do decide to pursue this, the price has to reflect the damage history. The asking price does not reflect it (according to TAP Evaluator - which also says to bump 10K off that for the damage history). And then, as already said, when it's time to sell you automatically reduce the potential pool that won't even consider a DH plane.

Even more so than a certified plane, a builder/owner, who's an A&P and did the repairs is going to have a different perspective on this issue than a prospective buyer. Then the issue with the plane not insured, the owner not current... whoever does manage to sort this out though is going to have a real nice RV, at least from what I can tell so far.
 
kmuller said:
The new engine was torn down as per insurance with nothing found.
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More than anything else, I'd want to know exactly who did the engine inspection. Above all, I'd be concerned about the crankshaft and connecting rods, and what type of NDI was done on them. Assuming it's a Lycoming, I'd want to specifcally know about the health of the accessory/camshaft gear and the nut that holds it in place. I probably wouldn't accept anything other than the word of Lycoming or a very reputable engine shop.

That, or I'd offer to buy just the airframe and re-engine it.
 
kmuller said:
The other thing is it's not insured now and the owner is not current... any advice as to how to get over this hurdle?
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kmuller said:
Then the issue with the plane not insured, the owner not current... whoever does manage to sort this out though is going to have a real nice RV, at least from what I can tell so far.
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I have to ask, because you mentioned it twice, why is it a hurdle or an issue that the plane isn't insured and the owner not current? I don't understand how that might affect the value of the plane.
 
Concern

I think his concern is for the checkout and flying it for a "test ride", especially with not being familiar with flying characteristics. (just my hunch)

I would be a little concerned over the lack of insurance, but not with the owner's currency per se. I am sure the owner knows others who are familiar with the plane that could fly the plane for a checkout. Or depending on the seller, you could bring someone who is familiar and current in RVs.

Insurance question for those who know. Can you purchase insurance on a plane to cover you in a checkout? The equivalent of renters insurance perhaps?
 
RatMan said:
I have to ask, because you mentioned it twice, why is it a hurdle or an issue that the plane isn't insured and the owner not current? I don't understand how that might affect the value of the plane.
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NO, it's not going to affect the value of the plane... just creates a problem for me when/if I go to initially check it out. The owner can't take me up, the plane hasn't been flown for over half a year, and he insinuated the issue of obtaining insurance for the purpose of a test flight would be on me.
 
kmuller said:
NO, it's not going to affect the value of the plane... just creates a problem for me when/if I go to initially check it out. The owner can't take me up, the plane hasn't been flown for over half a year, and he insinuated the issue of obtaining insurance for the purpose of a test flight would be on me.
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There are several red flags here.

1. The plane has only 100 hours total pre and post accident. How many hours does it have post accident? Did the owner put the plane back in Phase 1 and fly off 25 or 40 hours? After that level of rebuilding it is essentially a new plane and should go back through Phase 1.

I'd be less concerned about damage if the plane had been flown by the owner for 50 or 100 or 200 or 500 hours after the repairs than one with little or no time since the accident!

2. The level of damage concerns me. Damaged sheet metal is one thing. Over on it's back is another.

3. Anyone selling an airplane has to have the plane available and ready for test flights! Who in their right mind would buy a plane without flying it first! Especially one that was rebuilt! You don't know if it is straight and will fly well or is twisted and will be a pain!

4. Did the owner fess up to the damage, or did you have to figure it out from the before and after pictures? If he fessed up, that helps. If not, then you should wonder what else is he not being up front about.

5. Just because he is an A&P does not mean he will tell you everything he would want to know if he were buying the plane.

There's some real problems with this! Lots of good RVs are up for sale over the course of a year. Wait for something where the risk is more manageable and better defined.
 
Give it a pass!

kmuller said:
The owner can't take me up, the plane hasn't been flown for over half a year, and he insinuated the issue of obtaining insurance for the purpose of a test flight would be on me.
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There is something missing in this story. If the owner isn't current I'm sure he could find someone that is current to insure and give demo rides. Either he is hiding something or isn't really motivated to sell the airplane.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I know this airplane

I know this plane it did have a rebuild, BUT it IS A VERY HIGH QUALITY PLANE!!!
It was rebuilt correctly and is a fine plane.
 
kmuller said:
...The plane has not flown since last summer because the owner's medical expired and he wants to retire and move south. He says he's been starting the engine fairly regularly every since...
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Just want to point out one item no one's commented on. From what I understand, starting an engine and not flying the plane actually produces more moisture in the engine, not less. While I'm sure it's good for the battery, you increase the risk of corrosion.
 
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Tom is right on this. If the plane is not going to be flown, it is better to NOT start the engine.
 
Run!

Kerry,

As a self-described "Noob" this is the last thing you should do, IMO. As many have pointed out, there are lots of -6a projects out there as well as flying ones.
It's very easy for us who have "been there done that" to say how easy this could be. Maybe for Scott, but not for you. I've built exactly one -6a, and saw this one since I'm looking for a project. If it's the one I think, over on Barnstormers for $25K, with one wing major damage, the other wingtip, "possible firewall damage", the cowling obviously tweaked, not to mention the "rear wing attach"... The only way I would buy it is if it was under "Part out" status pricewise... If the engine/prop are good and overhaul well documented then those and the gauges might be worth $15-$18k.. If you could buy it for that, might be doable... and come out ahead buying whatever else you need from Van's.

My .25 (inflation.)
Jerry
 
Jerry,

No, the one on Barnstormers is not this one. The RV6A I'm referring to has been completely restored. A poster above knows the plane, the builder, and saw the rebuild in process. He contacted me and we spoke today, and my original impression was reinforced - expertly built by a craftsman... expertly rebuilt by same. Also confirmed that the basically new engine was redone by Lycoming.

I would absolutely do whatever due diligence I could, including a 3rd party inspection. I guess what I'm looking for here is any information to help me determine a fair market value. Would the standard rules applied to certified planes for DH hold true for homebuilts, or would there be a greater imact because of the 'amateur built' aspect? No matter who did the work, and how good it is, it's a major incident that's going to impact the market value when it comes time for me to sell... I'm trying to determine how much. The first plane I bought, I would not even look at anything with DH.
 
Jerry Cochran said:
Kerry,

It's very easy for us who have "been there done that" to say how easy this could be. Maybe for Scott, but not for you.
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Just to clarify...I never meant to imply that someone with no prior RV building experience should take on a rebuild project. That would not be a good idea.
I was meaning to emphasize that damage history should not be an automatic reason to avoid a particular airplane. The one being discussed in this thread (I believe) has damage history, but is fully repaired.
 
kmuller said:
Would the standard rules applied to certified planes for DH hold true for homebuilts, or would there be a greater imact because of the 'amateur built' aspect? No matter who did the work, and how good it is, it's a major incident that's going to impact the market value when it comes time for me to sell... I'm trying to determine how much. The first plane I bought, I would not even look at anything with DH.
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Hang on there, you're talking 'bout our homemade aeroplanes:D

First, I don't know the builder nor the plane in question, read on.

No, the standard rules wouldn't really apply. In the certified world they're all built the same and you can apply a value to them, for example, all 1970 Cessna 172's started life with a specific value (airframe built to a standard, engine built to a standard, avionics built to a standard, same levels of interior, paint, etc). If you wanted to buy one now you can look at the specifics of one of them (hours, engine, avionics, damage) and come up with a value today.

Every kit that leaves Van's has a specific value, then it's up to the builder to add value. Some add value by adding toys, some by really cool paint jobs and some, by holding themselves to higher building standards. You may look around and find a newer, better equipped, never damaged -6 that wasn't built quite as well as this one. Doesn't mean the newer one is worth more than the one in question. Is it worth less than before the damage, perhaps, but less than all the rest that have never been damaged, no. Damage or no damage, it really does matter who did the work and how good it is.

You are going to have to figure out what it's worth to you, and the bank if you are financing. Then a good inspection, and a flight. If the owner says you have to pay for the insurance, and you can't find a reason not to buy it on the ground, try asking him if he would take the cost off the top if you go through with the purchase. If it doesn't work out it will be money well spent. If it were me, I would ask a builder with quite a bit of time in an RV to go over it and fly it with a critical eye and no emotion toward the purchase. If you're thinking "I'm not going through all that just to buy this one", then I think you have your answer.

As a side note, if I bent mine, had to repair it, then lost my medical, I probably wouldn't carry insurance on it either. Some builders develop emotional ties with their homemade airplanes. It really hurts when they damage them, I bet he is really bummed to have to sell it. Ever heard of someone going to the hangar just to sit quietly next to their plane for a while? Some don't really get that but that has value as well.
 
I am...

RatMan said:
Ever heard of someone going to the hangar just to sit quietly next to their plane for a while? Some don't really get that but that has value as well.
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.......doing that as we speak....in my office, looking out the window at my RV and Air Tractor.....way cool:D
windowgw3.jpg

Regards,
 
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