NavyIBNFE

NavyIBNFE

Active Member
Good Afternoon RVers,

I would like to ask some more opinions and gain some good advice from builders.

I have wanted an RV for years- I am still young(er) and Active Navy, single, no kids, lots of free time. (i.e. lots of time to get in trouble...)
I have recently considered NOT buying that old 172 to beat the cost of pricy rentals, or sluggish and tired Navy Flying Club birds. I thought of buying an older completed RV. -4, -6, or something around $50k.
Honestly, Ive felt slightly guilty because I knew my desire was to build MY airplane and feel that accomplishment. Alas, a new idea has come about.
Searching the ads online and talking with some GA gurus back home, I have discovered a rising amount of RV kits in various stages of completion. Many, near or past the "weight on wheels" stage. Some, very fairly priced kits, are still past the QB stage, or may even be QB kits with about 300 hrs added then the owner has to sell, for whatever reason. These kits seem to be all over the states and Canada- most for a good 15-30% cheaper than a new QB.
I have read Vans' article about buying a used RV or a second hand Kit, I would still have a builder go and check out the "progress" and give me an honest opinion on the quality and value compared to buying new.
Heres my biggest pro to buying a 2nd hand kit, I would like to fly soon (1.5-2.5 years) and I deploy with the Navy on all sorts of surges and deployments- some 2 months, some 8. I would like the idea of getting a kit that is basically ready for some last minute close ups and only requiring final assembly, fiberglass work, interior, engine, avionics, and paint. This would be ideal- but there are still some out there that are sitting just before the assembly stage, like another 80hrs then its off to the hangar.
What are some opinions here? I am not made of money, and I would really like to idea of building and putting all my budgeted flying money into savings to pay for an engine. Also, this would give me a fair bit of time to fly every other month or so with some RVers and get a little more Dual time before strapping into my own RV.
This would be a huge accomplishement in my life and I would be able to take advantage of these last few years before I end up with a wife and kids! :confused:
 
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Jacob,

If i were in your place, I'd buy a flying RV-4, 6/6A, a few good examples of each are around. Then if you want, order a kit or find one in progress. That's having your cake and eating it too... Money a problem? Then take your pick.

.
 
NavyIBNFE said:
I would like the idea of getting a kit that is basically ready for some last minute close ups and only requiring final assembly, fiberglass work, interior, engine, avionics, and paint
Click to expand...

Not to be a wet blanket, but I just finished up my RV-7A QB project after 4 years of work.... there is a tremdious % of the overall project hours still left once the basic airframe is complete. If I had to guess, 50% of my total time in the project was spent after the basic airframe (tail, wings, fuselage) were pretty much fully put together.

Fitting the cowling, canopy, FWF and wiring/avionics are all major portions of the build.

Hope this is helpful,
Jason
 
I agree, buy a flying airplane. modify it to your taste if you really want to do some "work".

If you like working on it, then buy a tail kit, do that work, then buy each kit as you gain cash. Eventually sell the airplane you bought flying and finish your own. Don't pass up the flying fun now.
 
I would like the idea of getting a kit that is basically ready for some last minute close ups and only requiring final assembly, fiberglass work, interior, engine, avionics, and paint.

Not to knock all the wind out of your sails, but the above listed work works out to be about 1/3 of the total build time for most first time builders


NavyIBNFE said:
This would be ideal- but there are still some out there that are sitting just before the assembly stage, like another 80hrs then its off to the hangar.
Click to expand...

I watch the market and I see very few RV's offered for sale that would truly fit this category. In all honesty any project that is not already at the airport (because there is no other work left to do unless it is) probably has more on the order of 250 hrs of work left before it flys. Still much less than starting from scratch I admit, just don't be fooled... most projects still have a lot more work left to do than is at first apparent.
 
Jacob, you being new here, may not know who rvbuilder2002 is-----believe me, you can trust him when he tells you something, he is one of our "moles":D

I started with a project that was on its wheels, and I spent a lot of time just getting in tune with what had already been done-----and then I spent a lot of time re-doing stuff to make it the way I wanted it. Re-doing something always takes a lot more time.

Good luck in whichever way you go, it is worth it!!
 
Good plan

First, thank you for your service to our great country.

I have a 7 flying that was purchased as a project in progress. The wings were past QB stage and the fuselage was under QB stage. I was able to do what I needed to make it "my way."

I later bought another 7 project in progress. This one was under QB stage for both wings and fuselage. I am making this EXACTLY the way I want it because I'm not building again!!! Lots of extras and extreme attention to details. So, it is taking longer.

Here are the important things to consider:

1) Make sure you have a thorough Pre-Buy inspection done. There are plenty of people on this forum that will do it for you, most likely for nothing. Agree to a small refundable deposit to hold the kit while you arrange for a pre-buy. Most RVer's are pretty good people but find your own person to do a pre-buy.

2) Inquire as to exactly is included, i.e. what has the builder purchased as "extras." Could be trim servos, pitot tube, static system etc.... Get a list. On that note, try to get the tools too!!!

3) Very important!!! Inquire if there have been any modifications during the build. As an example, maybe the builder was setting it up for an Alternative engine. In most cases the fuel system might have been modified. You don't want to spend time redoing work. Make sure it fits your plans.

4) Confirm with Van's that the seller is the current builder of record. If not, the paper chase could be a PITA.

5) Get a shipping quote from Partain if the distance is great enough that you won't pick it up yourself. This could be a consideration if a couple of projects are being looked at and one is closer.

The advantages to going this route are many. 1) you'll avoid sales tax in most cases. 2) you'll have a major head start by hundreds of hours 3) Easier to come up with enough money to buy a project as opposed to a flying RV. 4) With your time available you'll be flying quick if you have the funds to buy the engine and avionics.

The only real down sides can be missing out on the some of the learning curve building the tail group, the most difficult part of the build:rolleyes: And, if you have to "undo" some of the build to meet your needs.

Good luck. Keep us posted. Don't hesitate to ask questions. This is a great group. Someone has already stepped on land mines on the path you are considering!!!!
 
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Thanks guys for your experienced advice. I literally posted this idea within 12 hours of conjuring up the idea of taking over a project. I was in the mindset that I could be up and flying relatively soon after seeing some builders' web pages showing their progress thru the stages.
Perhaps buying a -4 or -6 (if I find one in my $$$ range) WOULD in fact be best, I hate to miss out on flying for a few years- I discovered a builder center near my new home base in NW Washington called "Axsys Air". If I buy a flying RV it wouldnt need much airframe work or modifications most likely, chances are it wouldnt need much. Besides maybe a panel upgrade or paint. I would like to get to know some builders at this assistance center and maybe work with some owners on their projects so learn the technique, then as I save up, I could start an EMP kit on the RV of my choice.
I would ultimately like a -7 slider, but the ones I see for sale now, the -4 is about the only one in my price range.
Thanks again for your expert advice- I will take this all into consideration.
 
@ RV-7Guy-

I do like the idea of being able to almost outright buy a project kit, what little I would finance as a personal loan would be paid by the time I need an engine- and the money I save along the way would pay for a good mid time IO.
I really do like the idea of building my own plane, and getting one around QB stage should be a fair enough task to take on. I assume near 1000-1200 hours depending, at least thats what VansAircraft says. I am familiar with the working of airplane components and am almost an A&P myself- so there shouldnt be too much I dont have a grasp on at least.
Wiring and doing the FWF would be the biggest stride I believe, I could get help if needed.
I think this is the best cost effective route to take, I am ok flying the old club 152 for another couple years ;)
I theoretically "could" afford an RV-4 right now, but insurance would be high due to low TW and RV time, I hate sales tax, and so on... Spreading the cost out over a few years and using my deployment money (always good) on avionics and paint would be easy.
I have looked at Dynons website and it seem I could get a nice 7" display with engine monitoring and a few other gizmos for less than $6k. NOT a bad deal. Unfortunately, the few RV-4s in my price range are high time or slightly outdated.
I like the 7's side by side seating, and I see many for sale way out of my rice range- I am a little curious if it would turn out to be more expensive building?
I have considered around $18-20k for a kit/project (Barnstormers etc..) and around $12k for a mid time IO320 and a few thousand for a nice F/P prop... later I could switch to C/S.
It seems like either way could prove to be great, or very expensive... Ill keep in touch- Ill try to add a few URLs to projects as I see them for sale.
 
Here is a current listing on Barnstormers- its on Pg. 4 of Vans RVs - I couldnt add pics...


RV7-A OR RV7...SAVE $$$ • $18,995 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE OR TRADE • SAVE THOUSANDS $$$ Unfortunately my project has to go, RV7 or RV7A Excellent craftsmanship by A&P- just past quick build stage, wings and tanks done & pressure checked, completed emp vert and horizontal, winglets ailerons all finished up to glass work. Fuse halves done up to firewall, I believe it can still have tail wheel installed, ready for primer. Project comes with complete set of tools, gear legs and many many extra parts/pieces steps, elec trim, plans, too much to list...show me what you have to trade or cash, thanks for looking...email for complete pics or call *831.239.9009* • Contact Bill Gavlick, Owner - located San Juan Bautista, CA USA • Telephone: 831-239-9009
 
NavyIBNFE said:
Here is a current listing on Barnstormers- its on Pg. 4 of Vans RVs - I couldnt add pics...


RV7-A OR RV7...SAVE $$$ ? $18,995 ? AVAILABLE FOR SALE OR TRADE ? SAVE THOUSANDS $$$ Unfortunately my project has to go, RV7 or RV7A Excellent craftsmanship by A&P- just past quick build stage, wings and tanks done & pressure checked, completed emp vert and horizontal, winglets ailerons all finished up to glass work. Fuse halves done up to firewall, I believe it can still have tail wheel installed, ready for primer. Project comes with complete set of tools, gear legs and many many extra parts/pieces steps, elec trim, plans, too much to list...show me what you have to trade or cash, thanks for looking...email for complete pics or call *831.239.9009* ? Contact Bill Gavlick, Owner - located San Juan Bautista, CA USA ? Telephone: 831-239-9009
Click to expand...
"Not sure what he means by "fuse halves done up to firewall," but based on my experience as a first time builder, the project as described above seems to be about where I was at around 800-900 hours on my standard "slow-build" kit. It took an additional 1600+ hours before I was ready for signoff.
 
Buying an already flying RV has its advantages...

I helped friends build at least 4 different RVs and always wanted to build one of my own, particularly an RV-7 after getting to fly a friend's fire-breathing 200hp RV-7A many years ago. Then after I helped another friend build a hotrod, glass-panel RV-8 and getting to fly it a lot, including two Oshkosh's in a row by myself, I changed my mind as to which was my favorite RV model. But financial reality set in, and on a city employee's salary, I knew that such a plane would always be just out of my financial reach, so I sold my Cherokee and began saving my money for whatever RV I could eventually afford. An RV-6 that another friend had built at my airport was offered for sale and I was able to put 1/3 down on it and finance the rest. I've gotten enough airplane-building experience over the years helping buddies build RVs to not suffer any disappointment in not building my own RV, and I'm very happy to be flying my own RV now. Even though the -6 isn't necessarily my "dream" RV, it's a fantastic fun to fly aircraft in its own right... and it's now mine ;). I don't miss the fuel burn of the high horsepower RV-8, as I can throttle way back and still go 140-150 MPH on 5.5 gph, and my top cruise speed is not very much slower than that RV-8 while burning 3gph less fuel :D I do miss the rocketship takeoffs and mind blowing climb rates sometimes :eek:

Just like Mick Jagger sang: You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need. :cool:
 
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Could a few of you guys check out the ad on Pg 7 of Vans RVs on Barnstormers- there is a "2000 RV-6 for $42,500" for sale. 715TTAF and Engine. Looks like a wonderful affordable (for me at least) RV. The only reason I was wary about the RV-6 is because I thought the kit and support was discontinued?
Much thanks- I have emailed the seller and hope he can hold on to it a bit longer! This would be an ideal option to Fly and 'tweak' while I build a -4. Its located in Yakima, WA, a couple hours from home and I could go see it in December.
 
Yeah- I did see that. Shocked at the price! However, I like the TW variant. I think the -4 or -6 is my favorite. I could consider a 6A if it looked good. I just think the tailwheel seems more original. I have so many options tho too. I'd have to fly a 6A and see of I like it.
 
I would want it to be a TW too. You'd need a different motor mount, different legs, and would have to change out the rear bulkhead. You could sell these, and order the right parts for your tailwheel conversion. At this stage, the motor mount and legs are not even mounted yet. So don't let that discourage you.
 
Rv-6 support

The only reason I was wary about the RV-6 is because I thought the kit and support was discontinued?
Click to expand...

Jacob,

Don't worry about support, absolutely not a factor... You can still get every part for a 6/6a, and they represent arguably the best values on the RV market. Some consider them the best of the crowd.

Whatever you do, get an experienced set of eyes, maybe even a "hired gun" to help you. Most any experienced builder is qualified to take a look. If you want a complete in depth inspection for a pre purchase then we have some of these guys right here. Gary Brown comes to mind, DAR CFI RV builder.

HTH
.
 
It worked in my case

I did this and couldn't be happier. I constantly modify/tweak my flying airplane. It gave me a taste of building and I decided I liked it. Now, Im almost finished with my RV-7 tail kit and have my wing kit sitting and waiting on me to get to it. I think its a plan you should consider. Only thing is that I got such a great deal on my flying airplane (because of the market, nothing spectacular on my part), I dont see myself selling it once my 7 is finished. We'll see how that works out though....

petervs said:
I agree, buy a flying airplane. modify it to your taste if you really want to do some "work".

If you like working on it, then buy a tail kit, do that work, then buy each kit as you gain cash. Eventually sell the airplane you bought flying and finish your own. Don't pass up the flying fun now.
Click to expand...
 
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I have found a very nice RV-6A (not completely opposed to a Nose dragger).
It is $45k, has a very nice vfr panel (g296 and round gauges) built in 2003 with low engine time on an O-320 160hp. The airplane looks clean and very nice- I could easily get into this with a quick transition and then starty RV-4 project.
What shoul I expect insurance to be around on a 6A? Cheaper than TW?
I would have about 7-10 hours RV time, 100ish TT, 15 hrs complex, retract, twin time. Not IFR. And the plane would be hangered.
 
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Contact an insurance agent for a quote. Nation air is one option.

Round gauges are just fine. My 6A with round gauges has been in 47 of the lower 48 US states, the Bahamas, Mexico, the Cayman Islands, etc.

Glass panels are just a fad until the retro (steam gauges) stage a comeback!
 
Take your time

I have found a very nice RV-6A (not completely opposed to a Nose dragger).
It is $45k, has a very nice vfr panel (g296 and round gauges) built in 2003 with low engine time on an O-320 160hp. The airplane looks clean and very nice- I could easily get into this with a quick transition and then starty RV-4 project.
What shoul I expect insurance to be around on a 6A? Cheaper than TW?
I would have about 7-10 hours RV time, 100ish TT, 15 hrs complex, retract, twin time. Not IFR. And the plane would be hangered.
Click to expand...

I repeat, get a competent set of eyes for a quick look, and if that passes, then an in depth prebuy who may find a few faults...Based on that, make an offer...
For insurance try http://www.nationair.com/

You can take this statement to the bank tho... "There is no hurry" so take your time, relax!

.
 
NavyIBNFE said:
What shoul I expect insurance to be around on a 6A? Cheaper than TW?
I would have about 7-10 hours RV time, 100ish TT, 15 hrs complex, retract, twin time. Not IFR. And the plane would be hangered.
Click to expand...

Your hours are very much in line with what mine was when I bought my 6 a year ago. Yes, the tricycle gear will be slightly cheaper. My insurance is through Aviation Insurance Resources. I only had 118 hours prior and that was all tricyle gear. I hadn?t flown in 18 years, and certainly never a taildragger. As soon as I got my TW endorsement and got signed off, they quoted me $1,446.00 for my first year on a RV-6 with CS prop and only 440 hours on it. I?ve added another 90 hours, and they have dropped it down to $1,200 this time. Plus I can let anybody fly my plane that has 500 hours flight time, and a certain amount of hours of TW time in type. I don?t even have to have them on my plan, they are automatically insured. I know of others that have a lot more time than me, and are paying less than half of that. I think mine will continue to go down as my hours build up as long as I continue to not have any accidents.

Aviation Insurance Resources are RV friendly. Their number toll free is: 1-877-247-7767 (CO,IN, MI, NY, OH, PA) All other states it is 1-800 941-6677.
 
Thanks John and Jerry-
I will be spending the next few months looking over possible options, finishing my TW endorsement, and ultimately flying a few differently configured RVs to find the type i like the best. Then, when it comes time to buy, get my inspections done and if its a little older or outdated I can then spend a few years flying and saving to make the modifications I prefer.
I think a TW will be my ultimate choice.
@ John- you mentioned your first year insurance was $1446? If I understand correctly that was with a brand new TW endorsement and little time in type? I think my TT should be around 125 hours by the time I buy, Ill have all sorts of checkouts in complex and high power, plus I already have my multi and about 15 hours of retract time. only around 10 ish hours of TW in type tho- and I think thats what is going to bite me.
As my TT build it will be mostly in my soon-to-be RV and that will eventually lower my premium. I will also need Hull as well since I will be most likely financing around 70% against the aircraft. That will also drive up my cost.
I will go get a quote with AIF, thanks!
 
My first year's insurance on my RV-6 was also around $1400, even though I had over 100 hours in tailwheel RVs (-4 and -8), but none specifically in a tailwheel RV-6. My agent is Hardy Aviation Insurance. I've also been told to expect a drop to probably around $1200/yr after my first year in the RV-6. They consider the -6 a different type from the -4 and -8, probably due to the -6 being a little bit more difficult to land than the others (my guess). I've got 60K hull coverage. The "open pilot" part of my policy requires 250 tailwheel time total and 25 "in type", and the RV-7/RV-9 does not qualify as "in type" for the RV-6, they specifically want RV-6 tailwheel time for that.
 
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Neal-
That sounds fair for insurance too- I am expecting to be somewhere around there.. still waiting on two companies for my quote... :|
I havnt heard the -6 is harder to land. Is that because if poor ahead visibility? or different nose attitude than a -4? SPeed? I could see sitting off to the left would take some getting used to flying with my left hand- I learned left handed, but I prefer right when it comes to a stick rather than a yolk. Trivial I think...
When I spoke with a CFI who has a -6 he says he can give me an endorsement and transition for a -4 or -6, because his has a letter from the FAA granting him the ability to do so. However, I have heard insurance is different- so if I get transition in a -6 I should be fine whether I get a -4 or -6
 
Open pilot clause

Thread drift----
In standard aircraft policies pilots flying under an open pilot clause are NOT covered - you, the named insured, are covered. The insurance company reserves the right to sue the pilot to recover what they paid out to the named insured, and the named insured is obligated to help them with the lawsuit!
If you allow your friend to fly your aircraft you should get him named as an additional named insured. Friends don't let friends fly under an open pilot clause.
 
BobTurner said:
Thread drift----
In standard aircraft policies pilots flying under an open pilot clause are NOT covered - you, the named insured, are covered. The insurance company reserves the right to sue the pilot to recover what they paid out to the named insured, and the named insured is obligated to help them with the lawsuit!
If you allow your friend to fly your aircraft you should get him named as an additional named insured. Friends don't let friends fly under an open pilot clause.
Click to expand...

Bob, that?s important info that is good to know if that is the case, amazing how they leave out the little details. So, it looks like I?ll just put their names on my plane if that is all it takes to keep them from being liable. I only plan on having an instructors name on it, anyway. Here is how my policy reads:

?Any pilot with your permission maintaining a Private or more advanced pilot certificate who has logged a minimum total time of 500 hours including a minimum of 100 hours in aircraft having the same type of landing gear (retractable and/or tailwheel) including a minimum of 25 hours in the same make and model aircraft being flown.?


NavyIBNFE said:
I havnt heard the -6 is harder to land.
Click to expand...

Here are the two most useful threads I found on VAF about landing the 6.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=25698

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=40094
 
Here is an interesting project for sale I just found on Trade-a-plane.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/2001/Vans/RV-6_6A/1579030.html

I emailed the seller and he gave me a very detailed parts list, tools, spare parts, extras, a couple things Id need. He has a O-320 E2D (150hp i believe) and he has most basic IFR avionics and instruments. Custom interior is included, a few fluids, and so on.. Only will need to be finished and painted. Tested too of course.
The seller mentioned he had an offer for $30k, but he declined to to his quality build and craftsmanship. He has a list of all items included which total over $50k.
Ideas?
 
there is an RV-3 on the other airplane classified website for $27K. I dont know anything about it, so it could be priced that way for a reason. It seems like a candidate for the "fly while you build" option. its small enough you may could squeeze into someone's else's hangar who owns a high wing.
 
Thanks blue flyer- Ill go check that out. I have considered a cheaper airplane during building. An RV-3 would be a blast- bummer to not have a back seat, but a great plane to own and learn how to master the RV airframe.
 
Buy one!

If you figure that you want to fly rather than spend quality time in a basement, then consider this. The hours of effort you put in will be worth zero, and the price of kits keeps going up. If you buy your choice of design already built you won't regret it. The price of used RV's reflects the up front cost, nothing more, and sometimes less. There are hidden costs on kits like transportation, taxes, damages and so on. Bite the bullet on the cost of the plane you really want, and cry only once - the day you write the check. After than you'll be smiling every time you fly. Just fly safely and stay tuned for safety mods.

Best of luck with your decision. Ian Brown
 
AWF2,
where are you currently assigned? if your in jax still, give me a call, 904-542-0012 or 904-704-0657. if your already in Whidbey call anyway. i might be able to give you some great advice, being that i've done what you are doing now, only i did it a long time ago. i'm currently finishing my rv7 slow build (started in 3/09) and expect to finish next year after my next deployment to Japan.

AFCM Joe Tierney
VP45 MMCPO
FE East Coast God Father
 
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