[harrisonaero]

Hey Guys,

I’m fairly new to the VAF forums so please take it easy on me I’m looking at taking the plunge into becoming an RV owner and figured I would ask a few questions here first to help me better define my mission before I purchase something.

I’m wanting a XC focused plane for working. Most of my travel will be to west coast airports and it makes sense to use a plane when the weather permits.

Seems like with the ailing economy and growing RV fleet there are quite a few choices of used RVs so I would like to purchase something that has as many top-notch features as possible without having to retrofit. Over the years, probably like many of you, I’ve learned that it’s usually cheaper to wait and find something that has what I want rather than trying to modify something afterward.

Here’s a list of what I’m coming up with so far:

Primary (required)
side-by-side, two-place
trigear
200+ mph cruise
IFR
autopilot
very accurate and reliable engine monitoring (individual cylinder CHT/EGT) for running LOP
reliable and proven systems (nothing new and novel)
all airframe/prop/engine ADs/SBs complied with including nose-gear leg/fork upgrade (if applicable)

Secondary (desired)
under $60k
light (bare aluminum and a sparse interior is OK)
simple/light panel
aircraft-grade (mil-spec) wiring
wiring ala Aeroelectric Connection philosophy (fault-tolerant)
one mag, one electronic-ignition
TBI or direct-injection
clean/efficient cooling and intake
drag mods for fuel efficiency
CS prop for high altitude performance
two-place oxygen
custom/tight-fitting canopy cover

Can anyone give me some tips on some of the preferred (most reliable and/or the best performing) components to achieve these goals? Such as… “If you’re gonna buy a plane with an autopilot then ya gotta get JoeBob’s-Wonder-Wing-Wobbler if you want it to last.” Or, “If ya wanna go 200 mph ya really need to be looking for a plane with these speed mods…”

Thanks folks and I look forward to joining the RV community

Joa

 

[Andy Hill]

Hi Joa...

Some quick thoughts that might help (but probbaly not).

200+ mph cruise

I should exclude this Since you are going for an RV, effectively all will meet this. By how much depends on how much fuel you are prepared to burn, and the seller massages his ego

aircraft-grade (mil-spec) wiring

I'd be surprised if any weren't, and more importantly, the "quality" of the wiring building (connectors, bundling, routing, protection against chafe) would be more important, and hard to determine.

drag mods for fuel efficiency / clean/efficient cooling and intake

Again, the whole RV is designed well in these areas. I am unaware of any reputable mod(s) that make a worthwhile difference. If a seller claims otherwise, ensure it is not his ego talking (again!).

one mag, one electronic-ignition

I don't disagree... but it is a "simple" requirement that could be met, yet not achieve the aim. There are single EI setups that are problematical (the redundant mag only gets you on the ground, you are now stuck), and dual EI setups that are effectively independant of power problems.

Summary - I think you'd be best deleting the last sentance

Can anyone give me some tips on some of the preferred (most reliable and/or the best performing) components to achieve these goals? Such as? ?If you?re gonna buy a plane with an autopilot then ya gotta get JoeBob?s-Wonder-Wing-Wobbler if you want it to last.? Or, ?If ya wanna go 200 mph ya really need to be looking for a plane with these speed mods??

since you will get wildly varying opinions that are probably invalid.

You might be better reversing the question and asking What mods/features do I want to avoid.

HTH?
Andy

 

[f1rocket]

I'm going to get my post in early because there will probably be 50 posts here by Noon today!

My advice is to be flexible. Find a reasonably priced airplane that meets most of your minimal needs and then fly it for awhile. You may find your other needs changing. It's not lilely that you will find one that has all your requirements so you are probably lookling at making some enhancements over time anyway.

Here's a for example. I had one mag and one EI. While it does provide you two independent ignition systems, it is actually a compromise between both. You have the problems inherent with a mag (maintenance, mechanical breakage) and you don't get the total benefit of EI either. In doing it again I would go with two EI systems and wire them independently with a backup battery for redundancy.

Many of your items listed are a matter of personal choice based upon experience and usage. It's hard to judge that for you from just one post, but I'm sure you will get a ton of opinions and great advice from the collective. You've come to the right place to ask.

Welcome to the family.

 

[RV7Guy]

Flexible

Randy is right. You need to be flexible. There are several conflicts in your requests.

1) you mention IFR capable. In another line a simple/light panel. Don't know if you will find that.

2) One EI one Mag. This is something you can do yourself if it has all other desirable traits but the ignition system is not exact.

3) Following Aeroelectric connection guidelines. Well, this could create some controversy. Bob avocates a lot of things many won't do. I won't put ANY automotive fuses in my plane. Be very flexible on this.

4) Want it all for $60K. You need to up this by about $25-30K. The only thing you are likely to get is for 60K is an old VFR plane with steam gauges, 150 or 160hp engine and fixed pitch prop.

Good luck on your search. Be flexible and get a good prebuy.

 

[airguy]

4) Want it all for $60K. You need to up this by about $25-30K. The only thing you are likely to get is for 60K is an old VFR plane with steam gauges, 150 or 160hp engine and fixed pitch prop.

Ditto this point.

My requirements almost exactly mirror yours, I'm in the process of building mine to the same specs, and I'm budgeting $85k. If that sounds like too much money, go look at the certified market for the same requirements (speed, range, capability) and suddenly it sounds like a pretty good deal.

 

[Ron Lee]

I can get my 6A to go 200 mph but in use I plan 150 knots (may get 160).

Under $60K seems unlikely for a Garmin 430 or 430W equipped plane (430 or 430W is my assumption).

You can add oxygen and autopilots if required.

Since the 7A is usually much more expensive than a 6A, your odds are lowered expecting to get a 7A.

So my suggestion is as follows (Text in italics is commentary)

Primary (required)
RV-6A (Possibly 7A)
Lycoming O-360 or IO-360 (Maybe a carb is contrary to your preference)
IFR (Garmin 430 or 430W) (Others may disagree on this)
very accurate and reliable engine monitoring (individual cylinder CHT/EGT) for running LOP
reliable and proven systems (nothing new and novel)
all airframe/prop/engine ADs/SBs complied with including nose-gear leg/fork upgrade (if applicable) (Nose gear is fine if you stay off of grass in my opinion but I did upgrade when I rebuilt my engine)



Secondary (desired)
under $60k
light (bare aluminum and a sparse interior is OK)
simple/light panel
aircraft-grade (mil-spec) wiring
wiring ala Aeroelectric Connection philosophy (fault-tolerant)
one mag, one electronic-ignition (easy to upgrade to one electronic ignition)
TBI or direct-injection
two-place oxygen

 

[Mile High Relic]

4) Want it all for $60K. You need to up this by about $25-30K. The only thing you are likely to get is for 60K is an old VFR plane with steam gauges, 150 or 160hp engine and fixed pitch prop.

Airguy highlighted and agreed with this point. I'll take the other side.

The assertion you won't get glass is probably correct, but you didn't ask for glass. There are/were several 6As, and even a 7A, with C/S props and 180 HP or 200 HP powerplants LISTED for sale at less than 70K. I think you are only off about $5K, not $25K

I'm pretty sure a 2003 7A in El Paso with an IO-360 and a C/S prop just sold, and it was listed at 64.5K. The good news here is that that I think that 7A sold to the guy that was possibly going to buy the 6A I am considering, so I might be off the bubble.

I have been actively looking for almost the same thing as you for about 5 months, and I believe that if you are patient enough you will find a plane meeting almost all your requirements? but it might have a circus paint scheme. The point is that you may, as others have said, want to be more flexible.

Your cruise speed request seems a little high. The 6A and 7A seem to be the planes that meet most of your requirements, and based on the sellers I have spoken to, 200 mph cruise would be high. If you drop 10-20 mph off that I think you are right in the ball park for what the honest sellers will tell you. I?m not saying there aren?t some that will do 200, but I?ve talked to a lot of sellers and very few have claimed 200+ mph as a cruise number.

Barnstormers shows a 6A in Voorhees NJ that just sold that would have met most of your requirements and it was listed for 64.5K. It had been for sale for months and I would not be surprised if it sold for a sub 60K amount.

Tim Lewis has 6A listed here (VAF classifieds) and on Trade-a-plane for 56K that meets most of your requirements. If I hadn?t been tied up looking at another plane for the past 4 weeks I probably would have gone to look at Tim?s plane. I often get a bad vibe talking to sellers when their answers are squirrelly. When I spoke to Tim I got nothing but good solid answers to all my questions. His reason for selling is the best I have heard.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=61666&highlight=tim+lewis

There have been many threads over the past 5 months on this general subject, but once you get comfortable with the fact that the perfect plane will not have the perfect price, and a perfect price will net you a less than perfect plane, at least from the buyer?s perspective, your search will be less stressful. At least that is how it has been with me.

Tony (tkatc) and I are both in a similar hunt as you. There may be others as well. Since Tony and I are both newbs at this, or at lease we were newbs 3 months ago, we decided to cooperate/commiserate on the process instead of compete. He sends links to me and I send them to him too. We discuss the relative pros and cons of the planes we see.

Since neither of us has actually bought a plane yet you can draw your own conclusions on how effective that has been, but I?m pretty sure it has helped keep us a little more sane.

Your bio lists you as an A&P, IA, DAR etc., so I?m not sure our little consortia could add anything to your search, but who knows. We?ve been sort of immersed in it for months.

 

[harrisonaero]

Thanks for the replies so far. I know there are a lot of hot buttons possible here since many of these items are personal preference but I figured I would give it a shot.

I could definitely retrofit many of these items (especially ones in my secondary list) but I figured I would list them all out and try to get as many as possible.

I would love to tackle some serious mods but I just don't have time right now and need to stay focused on using the aircraft for flying and not wrenching (as much as I love to mod things).

BTW I like Andy's suggestion of listing items to avoid... let's add that to the question.

Thanks again!

Joa

 

[harrisonaero]

Airguy highlighted and agreed with this point. I'll take the other side....

Thanks Mile High- your observations agree with what I've been seeing in the market. There are definitely IFR equipped planes out there in the $60s/$70s and prices should go down with the pending winter and worsening economy (so call me a pessimist- I think it will bottom this winter).

Don't worry existing RV owners... your values will go back up as soon as we get some real Republicans back in office (I'm putting my flame suit on now...)

Note some of the big items that I'm being flexible on that should help bring the price down and/or provide more purchase options... airframe model, engine model, canopy style, color (bare OK), panel layout, avionics choice, etc.

Joa

 

[rv8eh]

cruise 200+?

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/speeds.pdf

found the second document I was looking for: http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf

 

[Richard@Langair]

A good friend of mine just sold his 6 for mid 50's and he had mostly a simple panel with a basic GPS in the panel.

He had a fixed pitch with IO360

It was a clean plane with about 2k hours I think. It was completed in 92 if I remember correctly,


The planes you are looking for are out there, just maybe not that easy to find sometimes. Keep looking.

Of course if you are getting impatient and really want a plane somewhat soon, you will likely have to pay more for it.

 

[Ron Lee]

Richard, that $55K plane is not what the poster wants.

Add SL30: $3729 (does not include installation cost). (No GPS approaches)
Garmin 106A CDI: $1897
TruTrak 2 axis autopilot: $4000 (no installation cost)

Now the $55K plane (Unknown engine time) now becomes around $65K and may not have the engine monitoring capability he wants. It may not have pitot tube heat if that is needed.

I have no idea if the current economy has lower selling prices for RVs. As has been mentioned, his desired price range may be low by $5-10K, if not more.

 

[harrisonaero]

Ok, after considerable soul searching and better mission definition I think I'm leaning towards a RV-9A now so nix the 200 mph.

For a flight clear across the country the difference in time is about an hour and for local flights here in the NW the difference is maybe 10 minutes.

But I'm leaning strongly towards an IFR platform since I don't want to get stuck in a scud layer and be tempted to run low. Plus I think staying IFR current will make me a better all-around pilot and more cognizant of the ATC system when dealing with larger airports. Not to mention that I might as well make use of that expensive instrument rating

I have some questions on the IFR panels but I think I'll start a separate thread.

 

[Ron Lee]

If by larger airports you mean those like Denver.....they don't want you there.

Let me clarify that...they don't want ME there.

 

[tkatc]

Harrison,
I will have to advise you what I keep trying to tell myself. BE PATIENT!! I know it's hard...I'M living it too. My gut is telling me that with winter approaching there will be more sellers than there already are and less buyers. Who wants to shell out money for a plane that gets limited use (generally) during the colder months?

If the seller is READY to really sell then they aren't happy about paying hangar rent month after month, insurance and the constant aggravation of having to sell the airplane. (Numerous questions from tire kickers and serious buyers alike)

I am learning that buying AND selling an airplane is a complete pain in the ***, that's why there are brokers. Of course, brokers eat into the bottom line on each side of the equation.

For awhile, I though maybe it was me who was too picky or being cheap, but as you see these plane sitting for months on end I realize it can't be just me....I am not the only buyer out there looking....there is a reason some planes sell and some sit stagnant.

 

[java]

Harrison,
For awhile, I though maybe it was me who was too picky or being cheap, but as you see these plane sitting for months on end I realize it can't be just me....I am not the only buyer out there looking....there is a reason some planes sell and some sit stagnant.

Amen Brother,

Having been in the market for months, it is getting easy to tell who wants to sell vs. who doesn't (or doesn't realize it isn't 2007-2008 anymore). It narrows down the opportunities, but they are there. Finding the right equipment at a convenient locale is still taking some time!