[jcfields]

Howdy all,

As some of you may (or may not) know, I'm trying to sell my '58 J35 Bonanza. However, given the wonderful state of the market right now, that's a tall order at any asking price. Anyway, I've had it listed since July with no luck (obviously) so far, so I started considering trading down to something less expensive to own and operate (assuming I could find a willing buyer/trader). I figured it might be kinda nice to have something cheap to fly anyway while I (slowly) build my RV-7. I was thinking Grumman AA1x or Cessna 150/2; however, I ran across a gentleman that is willing to trade up to my Bo' in exchange for taking his RV-4 as partial payment.

So, to the point, I was wondering what the experts here think about said RV. I know how pilots like to spend each other's money , so I was hoping you could spend mine wisely for me... I'll post the specs below. Also, are there any special areas/items/gotchas that I should look for? Obviously taking an experienced RV guy with me to do the pre-buy is a given. I'm just trying to do some research ahead of time. So what do ya'll think?

Specs:
Asking price $49,500
Color: Base coat: Silver blue metallic with dark navy blue stripes (2 shades) on fueslage and tops & bottoms of wings.
Aircraft hangared since new.
Interior: All over light gray, with gray cloth seats trimmed in blue vinyl (Fireblocked materials, w/confor foam inserts)
Times are approximate, since the plane is flown regulary.
TTSN: 715
TTSFN Lycoming 0320E2B, 1855
TSTOH 450
TSNP 200
ENGINE OPTIONS:
Spin on oil filter
Electric pad heater
K&N air filter
Quick drain oil valve
SkyTech lightweight starter
Vetterman stainless exhaust system
Sterba 68/70 prop
Concorde Gel Cell battery G25XL
AIRCRAFT DETAILS
Tru-Trak Pictorial Pilot Autopilot coupled to GPS (Works Great!)
Garmin Pilot III GPS (Moving Map) Hardwired w/external antenna.
King KX-197A Flip/flop comm.
Narco AT-50 Transponder w/encoder
Sony CD/AM/FM Stereo
Sigtronics Intercom W/Music mute
Duel "eyeball" air vents
Seatbelts w/shoulder harness
Dropped rear cockpit floors
Rear flight controls (Stick & Rudder pedals)
Manual Flaps & Trim
ELT /w remote test panel/remote antenna
Belly Strobe light
Navigation lights
Two place canopy gust lock, with Taxi position (allows the canopy to be open, but locked in place so you don't have to hold it)
Two wing tanks, 16 gals each
Last annual March '08 New Tires & tubes, Brakes
Aircraft is built light, 917 lbs empty
Performance is per Van's reports, Solo, 193 mph @75% @ 8000', 174mph @ 55% @ 8000'
2000' ROC is normal

 

[Mike S]

HMMMMM

Sound to me like you need to work on a tail wheel endorsement

Not too sure where Denton is, but there are a few RVers in Texas-----geting someone knowledgeable to look at the 4 should be fairly easy.

Big Q------how often do you fly the Bonanza with more than 2 SOB???

 

[jcfields]

Sound to me like you need to work on a tail wheel endorsement

...and get some acro training

Not too sure where Denton is, but there are a few RVers in Texas-----geting someone knowledgeable to look at the 4 should be fairly easy.

Denton is the top corner of the "Golden Triangle" of the DFW metro; I'm about 30 mi's from Dallas and about 40 mi's from FW. From what I can tell, this is a good place to be if you're into RVs.

Big Q------how often do you fly the Bonanza with more than 2 SOB???

When we lived up in NE, it was nearly every time the Bo' flew. Now that we live close to our families, never. It's nearly always me or me+1. I need a toy now, not a minivan My only fear is that w/ an RV already at the AP, my build project may slow down considerably - "let's see... it's nice out today... should I go fly or go pound rivets...?"

 

[rwhittier]

And you haven't started the prebuy yet?



Sounds like just what the doctor ordered...

 

[N941WR]

Check the engine mount for cracks. Same goes for the steel stiffeners aft of the firewall.

If you see any wrinkles on the firewall or forward skins, don't do the deal.

Also, check the mothership for service bulletins.

 

[jcfields]

Check the engine mount for cracks. Same goes for the steel stiffeners aft of the firewall.

If you see any wrinkles on the firewall or forward skins, don't do the deal.

Also, check the mothership for service bulletins.

Thanks for the advice; I'll keep this in mind when I look at the plane.

My only real (inexperienced) concern about the plane so far, without seeing it, is the engine time. Would it be reasonable to expect that the 1800+ hr O320 will hold up for another 700+ hrs? I know it had a TOH 450 hrs ago, so the jugs should be good, but how long should the bottom last? Is there any way to determine its condition w/o doing something invasive (aka "expensive")?

Thanks for all the comments guys; please keep 'em comin'.

 

[rwhittier]

Those Lyc bottom ends are awful robust. If the oil pressure is good and there is nothing in the oil analysis that suggests bearing problems I would be willing to fly one well past TBO. Do make sure of the normal stuff, like maintenance, AD's, engine history, etc... Also make sure you factor in the value equation that any other buyer in the future will consider the engine needing an OH.

Any deeper analysis will require invasive (aka expensive) work.

My only real (inexperienced) concern about the plane so far, without seeing it, is the engine time. Would it be reasonable to expect that the 1800+ hr O320 will hold up for another 700+ hrs? I know it had a TOH 450 hrs ago, so the jugs should be good, but how long should the bottom last? Is there any way to determine its condition w/o doing something invasive (aka "expensive")?

Thanks for all the comments guys; please keep 'em comin'.

 

[Mike S]

"let's see... it's nice out today... should I go fly or go pound rivets...?"

Gotta stay current

 

[jcfields]

I really hope this doesn't kill my RV-7 dream completely...

Gotta stay current

I can see where it might be easy for me to slip into a situation where I'm spending money that should go towards the -7 on the -4 instead - "Man, 180 hp would be nice... How 'bout a CS prop...? Man I sure would like a nice glass, IFR panel... etc., etc..."

My -7 tail kit is on its 3rd owner w/ me, and I'm really hoping third time's a charm w/ it. Just gotta keep from going all A.D.D. on the -7 if I get this -4.

BTW, Mike, I'm starting to think you're a bad influence...

 

[Ron Lee]

I don't know the RV4 market but I would plan on acting (purchase and resell) as if this is a run-out engine.

 

[Mike S]

BTW, Mike, I'm starting to think you're a bad influence...

Thanks

 

[jcfields]

I don't know the RV4 market but I would plan on acting (purchase and resell) as if this is a run-out engine.

Any idea how to determine what an acceptable price would be? I ran the numbers on TAP's NAAA evaluation tool, but I'm not very confident in them. I also ran my Bonanza through it, and I'm selling it for significantly (e.g. $13k) less than what that tool said it is worth. Thanks.

 

[Ron Lee]

Jeremy, some RV4 pilots may. I would have to look at all RV ads on the various sites, compare engine, prop, and avionics to get a general "asking price" reference.

 

[jcfields]

Jeremy, some RV4 pilots may. I would have to look at all RV ads on the various sites, compare engine, prop, and avionics to get a general "asking price" reference.

I've tried to do that a little bit, but there doesn't seem to be very many RV-4s on the market, let alone one equipped similar to this one. Maybe if I knew how to adjust for stuff like engine type differences (e.g. how much more is an O-360-equipped plane worth vs. an O-320-equipped plane) or differences in equipment (e.g. how much more is a solid, partial-glass IFR panel worth vs. a basic, steam gage VFR panel), I could use the few that are out there as data points. Maybe I'll try to build some comparison graphs in Excel and get some perspective from that...?

Anyone have any other ideas?

 

[Sid Lambert]

I think you can start around $45k and add for options and subtract for other things.

+ $1250 for Autopilot
- $1000 for high time engine
+ $1000 for O-360
+ $1500 for constant speed prop
+ $750 for really nice paint
.......

You get the picture.

 

[jcfields]

I think you can start around $45k and add for options and subtract for other things.

+ $1250 for Autopilot
- $1000 for high time engine
+ $1000 for O-360
+ $1500 for constant speed prop
+ $750 for really nice paint
.......

You get the picture.

Sid,

That's what I was attempting to say (though probably not very clearly). I'm really good at making a simple sentence overly complicated The problem is, I'm not sure what those values actually should be (your values are just hypothetical, right?). And how do you determine what the baseline is? Is $45k an appropriate number? If so, where did you get it from?

Sorry to be-labor the point here. I'm just a little paranoid 'cause I sorta got screwed on my last plane purchase and had to spend more than I intended to make the plane "right". I'm not looking for a fix-er-up-er.

Thanks again for all the help, guys.

 

[Ron Lee]

What Sid did is the basic process. The big item is the engine. For this one the delta may be $10,000 or more negative compared to a low time engine. I can't back up that number so get advice you trust. One way to check is to see what a new engine costs with a core...or what it would cost to have it overhauled soon.

 

[danielhv]

Jeremy... If you do decide to start the process on the deal above... I would get a hold of Mel, and beg him to come along for the pre-buy. Not sure what he would charge... but I can assure you the value of his knowledge on the RV line of aircraft is invaluable. And he's local...

 

[jcfields]

Jeremy... If you do decide to start the process on the deal above... I would get a hold of Mel, and beg him to come along for the pre-buy. Not sure what he would charge... but I can assure you the value of his knowledge on the RV line of aircraft is invaluable. And he's local...

Thanks, Daniel. Actually, he was the first person I thought of when this potential deal popped up. I was just gonna hold off on pestering him until I'm for certain that the deal will work (pending the pre-buy).

How're them wings coming?

 

[AFulmer]

Check headroom . . .

I bought a flying 4 about 18 months ago while building my 7. Only thing I would add is to make sure you will fit. My 4's previous owner had seats redone with extra height as he and his pilot wife were shorter than I (I'm 5'8") and my head bumps the canopy until the foam warms up and compresses a little. Nice seats but I am not sure I could wear even a Bose headset without it hitting the canopy. (I use one of the Halo headsets.). As it is I wear a ball cap to both protect my bald head from the sun and to keep the "scalp oil" from getting on inside of canopy!

Small detail but potentially problematic.

And it will cut into your building time but my rational is that it is making me a better RV and tailwheel pilot. First flight should be just a little less stressful.

Allen Fulmer

 

[Sid Lambert]

You should be cautious and consider all aspects. It's your butt strapped in the 1100 lbs aluminum can hurling through the air at 190 MPH.

As for the values of the options, that is purely up to you. For me the autopilot would be a big plus (more value) but for some guys it wouldn't much matter. The airframe and avionics in most -4's are fairly inexpensive to replace/repair. The big item of course is the engine. Spend time making sure you are comfortable with that aspect of the purchase. If it feels funny, walk away or ask for a deal that would lower your financial risk.

I do think $45k is a good starting point right now. If you asked me 6 months ago I would have said closer to $47.5k. $45k should buy you a long gear, decent home painted, 10 years old or less, O-320 with less than 750 hours SMOH, fixed pitch, day/night VFR airplane.

Sid,

That's what I was attempting to say (though probably not very clearly). I'm really good at making a simple sentence overly complicated The problem is, I'm not sure what those values actually should be (your values are just hypothetical, right?). And how do you determine what the baseline is? Is $45k an appropriate number? If so, where did you get it from?

Sorry to be-labor the point here. I'm just a little paranoid 'cause I sorta got screwed on my last plane purchase and had to spend more than I intended to make the plane "right". I'm not looking for a fix-er-up-er.

Thanks again for all the help, guys.

 

[szicree]

I've tried to do that a little bit, but there doesn't seem to be very many RV-4s on the market, let alone one equipped similar to this one. Maybe if I knew how to adjust for stuff like engine type differences (e.g. how much more is an O-360-equipped plane worth vs. an O-320-equipped plane) or differences in equipment (e.g. how much more is a solid, partial-glass IFR panel worth vs. a basic, steam gage VFR panel), I could use the few that are out there as data points. Maybe I'll try to build some comparison graphs in Excel and get some perspective from that...?

Anyone have any other ideas?

I can't say what flying -4's are worth, but I can tell you what I have in mine. I recently sat down and tallied up the cost of purchasing all the stuff I have in mine and came up with $50,303. My plane is all done except for wing paint. It's day vfr with wig-wags, fixed pitch metal Sensenich, carbed XP-360, Trutrak ADI, GRT EIS, analog ASI, ALT, G-meter, VSI, Icom radio, Lowrance 2000 and homebrew upholstery.

This number does not include all the costs of tools, jigs, primer, paint, etc., nor does it include the significant expense of things like hoses and wiring. Obviously my time is priceless . The reason for the accounting is that I am considering selling my project, but realize that I would take a real beating and have decided that keeping it and flying it is the way to go (I think).

 

[jcfields]

Steve/Sid,

Thanks for the info and insights. I guess I'm really gonna have to mull this one over. This plane is more airplane (price-wise) than I was really looking for; I was thinking more like Cessna 150 or Grumman AA1x - neither or which would be nearly as much fun - but it just sorta fell into my lap. However, I keep coming back to the fact that this is going to be a toy to keep me proficient while I build...but it would be so much fun to have... Sheesh! I dunno...

Somebody decide for me

 

[Sid Lambert]

I think you'd get bored with a 150 or Yankee after owning a Bonanza.

Get an RV-4.

Steve/Sid,

Thanks for the info and insights. I guess I'm really gonna have to mull this one over. This plane is more airplane (price-wise) than I was really looking for; I was thinking more like Cessna 150 or Grumman AA1x - neither or which would be nearly as much fun - but it just sorta fell into my lap. However, I keep coming back to the fact that this is going to be a toy to keep me proficient while I build...but it would be so much fun to have... Sheesh! I dunno...

Somebody decide for me

 

[Ron Lee]

If you want a side by side BUY one flying.

 

[jcfields]

If you want a side by side BUY one flying.

Do I have to?... I'm really excited about building an RV-7. I haven't made much progress on my tail kit yet, but I've very much enjoyed doing what little work I've done so far. I want to be able to say "I built that...and IT'S FREAKIN' AWESOME!!!"

 

[jcfields]

Jay Pratt is a scholar and a gentleman

The owner of the RV-4 brought the plane up to let me look at it this weekend. As sort of a last minute thought, I called up Jay Pratt at RV Central and asked if he wouldn't mind giving the plane a once-over (wasn't looking for a pre-buy so much as an experienced eye). Anyway, despite my PPP ("Piss Poor Planning") and resultant short notice, Mr. Pratt happily obliged (and wouldn't even let me pay him for his time - what a swell guy ).

Anyway, if I get stuck at any point during my RV build, I now know of a valuable local wealth of knowledge I can call on, and he's a decent fella' to boot.

Oh, and the plane was nice too

 

[Ron Lee]

Jeremy, if you want to build then do so. My suggestion was based upon the possibility that once you start flying an RV, you may decide to forgo building. In that case, if you want a side by side, buying one to start with may work out better in the end.

 

[jcfields]

I've been considering that too...

Jeremy, if you want to build then do so. My suggestion was based upon the possibility that once you start flying an RV, you may decide to forgo building. In that case, if you want a side by side, buying one to start with may work out better in the end.

Thanks, Ron. I've actually been doing a lot of soul searching on this, and I could certainly see myself getting distracted by having a flying RV in the hangar already. Not to mention, this -4 is nearly twice what I had budgeted for my knock-around-the-airport-while-I'm-building plane. But I got excited at the prospect of owning an RV I could fly. I think I sobered up a bit over the weekend, and I'm examining this w/ a little more objectivity. I also have the opportunity to take a very nice 160hp Musketeer on partial trade for my Bonanza. While it's certainly no rocket ship, it's much more inline w/ my budget, would serve the purpose adequately, and may even provide some motivation to keep truckin' on the -7 build. Oh, and it would also keep more money in my pocket every month to put towards saving up for the next kit.

So I don't know... I'm still weighing it out. At any rate, I'll update everyone here on what I decide to do. Bottom line is that the RV-7 is top priority, so I have to make a decision that reinforces that objective.

 

[jcfields]

Okay guys (for anyone who cares ), I decided to forgo the RV-4. (I directed the guy here to the "classifieds" section, if he really wants to sell it.) I decided the -4 would just be too much of a distraction, and I need to be saving my money up for the wing and fuse kits, not blowing it on another toy. I'll likely stick to my original plan - if I take a trade, it'll be something inexpensive to acquire and cheap to maintain ("cheap" obviously being a relative term when talking about airplane ownership).

Thanks again for all the great insight/advice/opinions/etc. Now, enough goofing off on my part...back to work