Sparky

Sparky

Well Known Member
When I started building my RV7 I considered starting a public build site ala Sam Buchanan's http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal (which was arguably THE original premier build site for RV's), Dan Checkoway's rvproject.com (which has had a huge following, but no longer exists) and Richard Horan's http://www.rvproject.co.uk (which he has since abandoned, and sold his project prior to completing it - self-admittedly partly because of the pressures exerted by hosting the site) among many others. I had been monitoring these sites for months and at least partially because of them actually prompted me to make the big leap into building an RV.

I decided not to start a site, mainly because I felt the build process would be challenging enough, let alone the pressure to update a build site on a regular basis. Keeping up a site like those mentioned above is no small task. (I was also skeptical of opening up all of my potential shortfalls to public scrutiny, not to mention the Feds). Granted, I have maintained a build log, but that really doesn't compare.

These sites have been instrumental in providing guidance and unique insight into the building process not available otherwise to many, many builders.

The downsides have been well documented on VAF and within the sites themselves, including many reports of scrutiny, disrespect, etc.

Other thoughts?
 
If comprehensive build sites are an endangered species, I submit it is because of a couple of reasons.

- Being the first guy (or gal) to thoroughly document a build makes you one of a kind. You're THE MAN! If you're the second, third, or tenth, it is hard to bring enough new ideas to the table to justify a huge investment in a web build.

- The first well documented builds (plus this forum and Matronics) have put enough information out there that there really isn't a need for new build sites. Ten years ago, it was a godsend to have Sam's site around - it was a great place (and about the only place) to go and see a finished example of whatever item you were building. Today, Sam's site is still there along with a few others, AND you can come to this forum or Matronics, ask your question, and get several replies (complete with pictures) in a couple of hours. So there really isn't a huge need for new comprehensive build sites.
 
Web Log

I started my website as a way to keep my family and friends informed on what I was doing. Looking at many of the other sites, I feel they may have similar origins. A few sites, like the ones you mentioned above, become builder support for those that follow. I have often gone to them when I needed a bit more confidence or inspiration before starting a task. For that, I am very grateful people continue to update their websites.

As for my own site, a few people have emailed me over the years, but other then that it's kind of hard to tell if anyone other then my family even looks at it. But, I will keep posting pictures and blog entries. If for no other reason then I like to look back myself at what I was doing at various points of the build.
 
I have nothing but admiration for the many folks who maintain the kind of sites that you talk about Paul - mostly because I know that I could never do anything like that! I relied on a number of such RV-8 sites while I was building - this was before VAF really existed, and all the forums were yahoo groups. I got a tremendous amount of information out of those who had gone before - which is why I try to give back as much as I can to today's builders. Since I don't know how to build a web site, I contribute what I can on these and a few other forums.

I had a goal of building fairly quickly, and was wisely advised "build an airplane, not a webs site" if I wanted to stay focused. But boy I am happy that some selfless folks did both!

Paul
 
I think from my perspective Kyle is pretty much right on. Those of us who built the old kits that still had Van's handwritten notes on them had little information in comparison to modern kits. There was no VAF, the plans were minimalistic compared to the current kits (though still pretty decent), and there just wasn't as much info out there. People like Frank Justice and Sam were a godsend to us early builders without a ton of local support. You either visited a buddy (if you could find one) that was just ahead of you in the build, or spent lots of time calling, etc.. to figure out how to do things. Now, there is an RV being built in almost every major city - the plans are good, the web is chock full of info and the planes go together much better.

Secondly, it's a LOT of work to both build the plane and spend the time to document it properly. I started out documenting the heck out of mine...but interest in finishing the plane overtook the desire to document every day's worth of work.

Overall, I think that the ends just don't justify the means anymore...so that's where it's at! Ahhh...the good ole' days. Remembering that my first ride EVER in ANY RV was the first time I took mine off on the first flight! :)

My 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein
 
I'd love to do it, but the build is challenging enough. I don't think I would have the discipline required to keep the site current and fresh.

Kitlog Pro is about as close as I will ever come to having a dedicated site for the build.
 
What about a site that's not meant to instruct in every detail, but one that just hits the high points/tough spots/new ideas? My plan is to do just that with my -9. All using HD video. It's what I do, after all.

Stein, at some point I'm hoping you'll be in my shop helping me install my Stein-Air built panel, walking through the logic and/or whimsy of the instrumentation selection, showing how not to crimp a lead, etc.

When the first flight rolls around (2014?), maybe Paul Dye grants me a nice interview explaining the process/philosophy of a sound flight testing program (not an endless outline), then talks me out of making the first flight myself.

The "traditional" build site my be a thing of the past. What's the build site of the future? That's what I want to do. Maybe it's not about teaching people to build. Maybe it's just taking them along for the ride. Strictly inspiration.

Forrest
 
I've got one of this website. Not as much details as on RvProject (RIP) but it's comprehensive.

I'm a software programmer so I don't waste a lot of time writing something up. I setted up a blog software (Wordpress) and a gallery software (Menalto Gallery). Both were free.

To create a new article on my website I start up "Gallery Remote" a small program on my computer : I drag & drop the pictures I want uploaded. They get resized and thumbnailed automaticly. Then I open up the "admin" webpage of my blog. Using a small plugin that link Gallery and Wordpress (WPG2) I insert the pictures in the text box (in a small popup, I add checkmarks beside the images I want then hit "INSERT").

I then add a bit of text between the images and hit the "Publish" button. It takes around 5-15min to complete an entry. It then appears on the webpage.

Take a look at my website : http://www.llavalle.ca/ . It's in french but you'll get a good idea.

The webcam(link in signature) is also pretty easy. I've got a laptop running "YawCam" (also free). It snaps pictures where there is movement and upload them to the website automaticly. Nothing else to do!

I had a manually updated website (using Dreamweaver templates) before and it was a pain to update. The goal with this one (Wordpress + Gallery) was to make the whole process easy.

For hosting, I'm using Godaddy. Paid something like $50 for 12months. It's cheap.
 
Thanks Marty!

I've been dreaming, planning, preparing, hoping, and crossing my fingers to get the chance to build an RV-12. Through this site, Vans' site, and others, the BEST build log I've found for the -12 is Marty Santic's site from Iowa.

http://www.martysrv12.blogspot.com/

keep the great pics and info coming Marty! You are inspiring to many!
 
Sparky,

Keeping a website is a huge time sink, but there is no better way to let your friends and family know what you are up to. I don't really see these sites going away anytime soon. Sam's site is a great resource, and an entertaining read. However, just because Dan's site is gone doesn't mean that there are no more good sites left. Just go to Van's website and check out all of the links for each type of RV. Plenty of good place to go to get another opinion on how to do some things that are not so well documented in the plans.

I do have a little concern with part of your reason not to do a website:

Sparky said:
(I was also skeptical of opening up all of my potential shortfalls to public scrutiny, not to mention the Feds).
Click to expand...

If you are really doing something that you do not want anyone to see, then I would suggest that maybe you shouldn't be building a airplane. Peer review is an important part of the educational part of building an airplane. If you are afraid of criticism, then do a better job--it just may save your life. If I am doing anything that is questionable, and I cannot defend it, then maybe I shouldn't be doing it.

So, put yourself out there, let everyone see what you are doing, and do a good job. Maybe you are doing something that others can use. The idea that all of the good practices and improvements for building an RV have been made is a little narrow minded. Just my opinion.

Cheers,
Tracy.
 
another builder takes on the question... to web or not to web?

I have been struggling with whether or not, or how much to document on the web. I'm just getting started (RV-9 empennage kit arrived yesterday!).

I know from experience how much time it can take to manage and update a web site. I did that for my son's Boy Scout Troop for close to 8 years. It was a labor of love and expanded from a couple of pages to hundreds. It used to be in the Google top 5 for "Boy Scout Troop" searches. That web site is now in the hands of others and isn't kept as up to date as it could be.
A few years into that experience I attempted to update the web page technology to something more modern, but gave up because the project was too big for my precious spare time. I maintained that site hand editing HTML (which is a major pain in the butt).

Given that my RV-9 project will probably span 5 years (just being realistic), I know that what looks like a good web approach today may not be great tomorrow.

After some serious thought, I'm probably just going to post pictures on my SmugMug site as I go. That is definitely the easiest way to go. Full resolution pictures, unlimited storage and up to 64K characters in each caption, and the ability for others to leave comments for each picture. Hopefully I can make it easy for others to navigate from section to section.
 
Is it worth it?

Documenting the build is strangely addictive after you pen a few paragraphs and take a few pictures each night after a day's building. What's REALLY neat is going back after the plane has been flying for some time, like 4 years, and reviewing all the work you accomplished. If it weren't for my build site I would not remember half of all the work I put into the plane. I'm still referring to my website when I get asked questions. In fact, I'm a bit sorry I didn't take more pictures and document more of the build including the seemingly insignificant details. Is it worth it? For me strangely yes.
 
I documented both of my RV builds and did so for a two reasons...

1) I came up with a few unique solutions to problems most RV builders had during construction and I got tired of explaining the same thing many times over. Therefore I wanted a way to document things once and not have to re-tell the story. Call it "laziness driven".

2) I really wanted to teach myself web site development and this was the perfect task to use in that process.

As others have indicated it is a huge time sink, but as Walter said it is also a strangely satisfying experience.
 
From another perspective of someone who does it, sorta...

From another perspective of someone who does it, sorta...

I've been maintaining a web site of my build process for my own use, and I have found it to be very useful on many occasions to be able to refer back to it. It is also freely available to anyone on the internet, and if anyone else happens to find it useful, great. But that's not my main objective, and I make no promises or guarantees about its usefulness to anyone else.

In any case, what I've found to be most useful, both on my own site and others, is not the routine stuff ("today I riveted another rib...") but rather unique problems and solutions, modifications, research, information and techniques that are less commonly known, etc. That should sound obvious, but it is noteworthy because I think a common mistake (in my humble opinion) that some folks make in building these web sites (myself included, initially) is to spend way too much time and effort documenting the day-to-day routine stuff that doesn't really contain any new information, and not nearly enough time and effort documenting the really valuable tidbits of info that come up here and there.

So most days now I don't touch the web site at all, but occasionally I spend an entire evening carefully documenting one of those unique situations that came up. I find that this approach minimizes the time sink while maximizing the benefit.
 
I did my site for my own accord. I wanted to eternalize (as long as the bill is paid :D ) the photos and my thoughts along the way. Its not hard to update, very easy in fact. Takes about as much time as its taking me to post this reply. But I can always go back to it and look no matter where I am in the world. And the added benefit that is may help someone else someday makes it all worth while. :) I really enjoy having my site and seeing how many hits per day I get. Busiest day so far... January 8th, 2009... 358 views. 17,681 views total since the beginning of the site. Surely out of that many ppl... I have helped atleast 1. :)
 
Orndorfs-Not a 'site', but very valuable resource !!!

As one who built a early 6A out of NO kits from Vans using abandoned scraps and used/wrecked components (see writeup in old RVAtor) , I used every resource available. I think we must include credit to the Orndorfs also for doing their 'how to' video series and helping launch many RV's.

Hat's off to them!
 
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I built my kit log on the web for two reasons: One, I'm better with computers than I am with paper, and Two: it's a lot easier to show off progress on a website anyone can access. I'm not pretending to do a step-by-step howto on the process of building an airplane. There are some minor tasks in the building process that remain undocumented, since they are part of larger tasks. My formatting is atrocious, my language often colorful, and I'm probably one server crash away from the erasure of 4.5 years of work (frequent backups notwithstanding).
 
I put my Rocket building site online because:
1) there weren't any other Rocket sites at that time
2) my day job is an "on call" type of job. If nothing is broken, I'm not busy.

#2 allowed me to squander hours of otherwise completely wasted time on all sorts of blogging and blathering about my Rocket.

www.vincesrocket.com

When I finished the Rocket and the website wound down to not being updated very often, I had to start making tailwheels to keep my sanity. Now you know the rest of the story...
 
Interesting topic...

I started my site so my extended family could follow my progress.

It was not my intention to try to outdo some of the outstanding sites out there at the time. My goal was to supplement those sites with the things I did differently; such as building a -9 tail dragger and installing an O-290.

Also, there was a big push for these complex electrical systems on VFR aircraft. Thus I included my simple electrical system and tried to share my design philosophy regarding ergonomics and other such things.

When (if?) I settle with my insurance company, I will document the engine rebuild (replacement?) on there as well.
 
In my case, I'd been keeping data logs (pool temperature and triathlon training) and a web page for years before before I started on the kit. I already had the habits so it was a natural continuation. I did ponder how best to publish a build log, and decided to go with the google blog site, which makes page design, posting, and photo upload/organization fairly painless. It takes a lot less time than maintaining your own http server and hand editing HTML :eek: In theory you loose some control/ownership of your data, but it's free (so far).

I don't think keeping the blog page current eats into my build time. By the time I'm making the blog entries, it's clear I shouldn't be building any more for the evening. I have cut way back on TV, solitaire, and flight sim, but that's mostly because of the build time itself.
 
I'm one of those people who keeps a fairly detailed website. It's partly to let friends and family keep tabs on what I'm up to, and also because I find that cataloging my build progress helps me organize my thoughts better. Whether you feel like documenting your project on a computer or in a paper notebook, in great detail or not much at all, just do what makes you happy... after all, this whole process of building an airplane in your garage is all about "education and recreation"! :)

cheers,
mcb
 
Rudi's site

I too greatly admire those of you that are willing to share your building experience via a web page. I thought the bar was raised a few years ago when this guy from South Africa named Rudi came along and absolutely blew me away with his stop motion photography in addition to his well documented RV-7 site.

He's already won some awards with his RV-7 plus he has shared his photojournal of some trips in his RV. Now he's building an RV-12!

How does he find the time???

What a guy! :D
 
Now days the software has advanced so much that buliding a web site isn't the chore it used to be. There are plenty of software tools that make life much easier. This forum software is one of those tools.

The website software is now more integrated so you get forums, blogs, galleries, etc all built in and easy to maintain. For what we normally need the software is Open Source (read free to use). Just Google 'Content Management Software open source' and look at things like Joomla, DotNetNuke, etc (there are too many to mention). Or for windows users try the Microsoft Web Platform Installer 2.0 just to get an idea of what's available and to play areound on your desktop.

Website hosts are really reasonable. I use http://www.1and1.com and have had no complaints for many years. The cost is low (less than $10/month) and includes more email accounts than my family, friends, etc could ever use. There are many web hosts that provide this kind of service and value.

Getting a web site up and running doesn't take a whole lot, it's all in the content. The content makes it meaningful. This site feeds itself. There are so many contributors, that's what makes this site value packed and entertaining. One person can't equal the content and value that's here. But to document your build and provide family & freinds with a view of why you've come up missing so much...there are countless ways to get there.

Bob
 
Sparky said:
These sites have been instrumental in providing guidance and unique insight into the building process not available otherwise to many, many builders.

The downsides have been well documented on VAF and within the sites themselves, including many reports of scrutiny, disrespect, etc.

Other thoughts?
Click to expand...
My website has been online for about 8 years now. I have never been "disrespected" by anyone. In fact just the opposite. I have met many builders, flyers and builder wannabe's from my site. I met someone just a few weeks ago because they found me from my website. I can't tell you how many nice folk came through my garage those 5 years that I was building because they found me online. That's cool stuff!

Scrutiny is encouraged, and I have been sent many suggestions along the way from some very well meaning folks. Some I ignored, but most were good ideas. I have also sent some private notes to some web loggers that had done some things that I thought might get them into trouble. Whether they appreciated it or not I don't know, I hope that it was received in the spirit in which it was intended. I'd much rather a well meaning fellow builder correct me on something than have the universe correct me via the laws of physics.

It served to keep family and friends updated on my progress while I was building and it serves to help me remember how I did things now that I'm flying. If I helped someone along the way then that's a bonus. If I am ever blessed enough to get to build another aiplane I will build another website. Hopefully one much better than the last.
 
Got to agree with Phil on this (and I watched his site as I was doing my build). My builders site was started in June 02 and I've had no problems. I've met countless folks who have reached out and said hello due to a web presence, and received suggestions for improvements as well. I can't say that there's been any disrespect at all and I don't think that's apervasive problem for those with on-line, non-commercial sites.

If I ever get around to another project, I'll probably run the builder's log the same way with no regrests and as mentioned earlier, current software makes this stuff really simple and generally pain-free. When you're done, just print out each page and show The Man.
 
As with my flying blog, I write my RV-12 build blog because I enjoy telling stories. Converting an interesting story to an interesting written article is harder to do (at least for me) than it sounds, and the practice has (IMHO) made me a much better writer than I was a few years ago. This has paid off handsomely in my paid job.

And, as with others that have replied here before me, it allows me to share the experience (as opposed to just the raw how-to-do-it details) with friends and family for whom this is their first (and often only) introduction to the world of homebuilt aircraft.

I don't look at it as a chore; I view it as getting even more satisfaction out of what (to me) is a very expensive hobby. There are times when I don't really feel like writing much more than "riveted A to B" and on those days I simply don't write. I feel no obligation to do so. In the case of the RV-12, that has already been admirably done by Van's. On those days when the experience of the build process goes beyond just the nuts and bolts and I can write an article well enough that I think it conveys the emotions (both good and bad) that went with the day, I have a sense of pride in my written work equal to (or sometimes greater than) the satisfaction I got from the airplane.

The only feedback I have ever gotten has been positive. I could see where having people hound you about "doing this or that wrong" or being treated as a public utility obligated to answer dozens of questions could get tiring, but I haven't had any experiences like that.
 
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