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chuck

Well Known Member
Has anyone run into a requirement to provide proof of insurance when flying in non-waivered airspace at a fly-in? Two of our events (different organizers, presumably same insurance carrier) have asked us (Blackjack Squadron) for proof of insurance. Can anybody with knowledge on such requests let me know the origin of these requests. Please note that it is NOT the FAA that is asking for proof of insurance.

We are trying to contact the insurance company that is involved but I'm looking here for a bit broader base of information.

If possible I'd prefer that this thread didn't take off in a 'they can't make you do that' or a 'why don't you just fax them the insurance' direction, I just want to understand what caused this change so we can communicate from a position of logic rather than emotion.

Thanks
 
I'm having trouble understanding why they segregated waivered from non-waivered airspace. Weird.

Look what happened at the Arlington flyin. Guy takes off, stalls and crashes, catches fire. They put the fire out within 90 seconds. Family sues the EAA and wins because the fire department didn't respond fast enough. Look at what Liddle's wife is doing (suing Cirrus, Hartzell, Lycoming, Garmin, Burger King, Walmart, her neighboor's gold fish etc etc...).

I'm guessing they're just practicing some CYA (and yes, personally I would tell them to go pound sand and just wouldn't fly there if it came to that).
 
We do at 57AZ

chuck said:
Has anyone run into a requirement to provide proof of insurance when flying in non-waivered airspace at a fly-in? Two of our events (different organizers, presumably same insurance carrier) have asked us (Blackjack Squadron) for proof of insurance. Can anybody with knowledge on such requests let me know the origin of these requests. Please note that it is NOT the FAA that is asking for proof of insurance.

We are trying to contact the insurance company that is involved but I'm looking here for a bit broader base of information.

If possible I'd prefer that this thread didn't take off in a 'they can't make you do that' or a 'why don't you just fax them the insurance' direction, I just want to understand what caused this change so we can communicate from a position of logic rather than emotion.

Thanks
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Our Private Airpark requires this for all visitors. We are listed in all the applicable documents as a "Prior Permission Only" (PPO) airport

If we have an EAA Event (Pancake Breakfast) then we (the airport) are covered for visitors on the EAA General Policy when we put an application in - no cost to the local Chapter.

When the Airpark first started checking insurance policies, I was surprised at how many folks did not have Liability Insurance - each to his own, I guess.
But since the airport is a common area owned by 120 residents, we can set the rules... :cool:

There is that little FAR about a PIC knowing all of the information he/she needs for the flight planned - that would include whether the destination is a Private airport and PPO...

Now if the airport is listed as "Public Use", then I'm not sure about this requirement....

gil in Tucson

That pesky FAR is 91.103 ....:)
 
chuck said:
Has anyone run into a requirement to provide proof of insurance when flying in non-waivered airspace at a fly-in? Two of our events (different organizers, presumably same insurance carrier) have asked us (Blackjack Squadron) for proof of insurance. Can anybody with knowledge on such requests let me know the origin of these requests. Please note that it is NOT the FAA that is asking for proof of insurance.

We are trying to contact the insurance company that is involved but I'm looking here for a bit broader base of information.

If possible I'd prefer that this thread didn't take off in a 'they can't make you do that' or a 'why don't you just fax them the insurance' direction, I just want to understand what caused this change so we can communicate from a position of logic rather than emotion.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Many times the sponsor of WAIVERED AIR SPACE will require that they be named as ADDITIONAL insured on your insurance policy. My policy went up $35 dollars because of this at the renewal following the event.

For the large RV formations at OSHKOSH AirVenture typically they want to see proof of insurance and all the pilot / airplane documents.

The FAA requirements for flying in waivered air space can be found in FAA ORDER 8700.1, Chapter 49. Chapter 49 is 72 pages long. You need proof of your annual condition inspection.
 
it's CYA...

Chuck, I think this is just another case of CYA/PC America in action. It is completely driven by the type of lawsuits mentioned earlier and everyone's "duck for cover" response to these ludicrous decisions and awards. Stupid flying tricks resulting in near misses and accidents also contribute to this attitude of fear on the part of the general (non-flying) public. These are the same people who see no risk at all when driving their family down the freeway at 80 miles an hour while talking on a cell phone...5 feet away from a speeding tanker full of gasoline.

Some administrator doesn't want to ask or answer questions. It's simpler to just ask you for everything up front and maybe you'll go away. I think this problem is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Generally there isn't an easy way around policy making administrative types in our government.

About your only recourse is going to be to try to discuss and negotiate with whoever it is that is wanting the POI. Good luck!
 
Hi Chuck,
If you are performing, reguardless of any waiver, its not unusual for an event organizer to not only ask for proof of insurance, but also to request they be a 'named insurer' on your insurance. IF its the latter, a simple phone call to your broker can make this happen. The waiver is not a factor for the organizer in terms of insurance from you. Its the fact that they have requested you to do something and you are doing it at their request for others. Adds liability on thier part which they are trying to protect.

If you are not performing at their request, then I cant imagine why they are doing that.

Best,
 
Performing

Kahuna said:
.....

If you are not performing at their request, then I cant imagine why they are doing that.

Best,
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Kahuna... are we now getting close to the previous discussion on formation flying from the Coolidge/AOPA thread?

Perhaps it depends on the definition of "performing"??

Is a nice RV formation arrival at a fly-in for the appreciaton of those on the ground?

...if so, the host may think it's performing, while the arriving formation does not... :rolleyes:

gil in Tucson... looking at it from the other side.... :)
 
Kahuna said:
Hi Chuck,
If you are performing, reguardless of any waiver, its not unusual for an event organizer to not only ask for proof of insurance, but also to request they be a 'named insurer' on your insurance.
Click to expand...

To the best of my knowlege, over the last 20 years, the Blackjacks have never been asked to provide any documentation (for non waivered events) and as far as I know every flyby is coordinated on some level with what is going on on the ground.

Chuck
 
chuck said:
To the best of my knowlege, over the last 20 years, the Blackjacks have never been asked to provide any documentation (for non waivered events) and as far as I know every flyby is coordinated on some level with what is going on on the ground.

Chuck
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Times are a changing Chuck. But as soon as an event organizer request a fly by, pass, complicated aerobatic routine and so forth, or any other activity, they imediately begin assuming some liability for its outcome.

And Gil, there may be no one on the ground at all. I did not mean that that was a factor. What is a factor is that someone asks an entity (group or single) to do something at an event, it makes sense that that organizer whats to know if your insured. Whether your being asked to pick up trash or fly your plane. Both pose a risk to the event in many ways.

And Im no attourney. But thats the gist as I understand it.
 
Times are a changin
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I'm trying to understand what is a changing and why did it a change. Did somebody get sued? Who, what where? What was the outcome of the litigation?

Chuck
 
<<Has anyone run into a requirement to provide proof of insurance when flying in non-waivered airspace at a fly-in?>>

Standard proceedure to fly a civilian bird into a military installation.

My airport won't grant an hangar lease without POI.

Now a fly-in organizer asks? No surprise.

It's all CYA.
 
chuck said:
I'm trying to understand what is a changing and why did it a change. Did somebody get sued? Who, what where? What was the outcome of the litigation?

Chuck
Click to expand...


Well, let's see what's changed . . .

You can now stall your plane at an airshow and it's EAA's fault the rescue crew couldn't save you.

You can fly your plane into the side of a building and some people think you have a legitimate case against the airframe manufacturer, the prop manufacturer, the autopilot manufacturer and an FBO.

Heck, you can even get a million bucks from a vacuum pump manufacturer if you crash in IMC, even if the vacuum pump DIDN'T fail!

I truly fear that lawsuits and insurance policies to protect us from lawsuits are quickly becoming the fastest growing industries in America. :mad:
 
chuck said:
I'm trying to understand what is a changing and why did it a change. Did somebody get sued? Who, what where? What was the outcome of the litigation?

Chuck
Click to expand...

People are getting sued left and right, and loosing. The most recent/famous example is the Arlington/EAA incident. It's quite amazing that a jury was able to assign blame to the EAA and the fire department for not getting there fast enough after the guy stalled his plane, slammed into the runway and subsequently died. This is just the most recent spectacular failure of our civil court system.

The other outrageous, high-profile case is just getting started. Lidle's family is suing anyone and anything ascociated with aviation. According to AvWeb they're going after Cirrus, "Teledyne, Hartzel Propeller, S-Tec, Honeywell and Justice Aviation". The whole situation is sad but this is just WRONG. The guy who owned the apartment is suing Lidle's family, by the way. $5 million, or something like that.

And that's just recent. You can find many examples of stuff like this over the years and it's been driving aircraft costs through the roof (is a Cessna really worth $250,000+ ??? Much of that is liability). I don't blame anyone for requiring liability for anyone and anything that has anything to do with a flyin. Still, there's something in me that prevents me from feeding the beast. I would personally just find something else to do that weekend rather than aggravate myself (and yes, I do carry liability so that's not the issue).

Maybe the root cause of all these crashes is the Earth moving unexpectedly anytime Atlas shruggs. Maybe he'll be sued next...
 
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People have been sueing for airplane crashes forever. The Arlington crash was not by a person who was asked to perform at the show. I guess I don't see the relationship.
 
And it costs the sponsors a lot too!

Sponsors of airshow events want to make sure there is coverage for just about everything as if something goes wrong, there **can** be lawsuits. Many times the organizations putting on the event do NOT have deep pockets so if there is a lawsuit, the people involved want some amount of protection as well. Millions of dollars worth of coverage is "required" at many places before you can do an airshow.

Sometimes things do go wrong. (And not because there was an airshowinvolved.) And sometimes, just sometimes the families of the lost ones realize it was not the fault of the event planners. But not always.

James
 
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