W

ww2planes

Well Known Member
I think that the devil was a partner with the inventor of Pro-Seal. That stuff sure is a royal pain. It gets everywhere. I had gloves on and still got it on my hands. Well I guess that not everything can be fun. I can see that re-using rags will not be an option so I will be on the hunt for good lint free rags at a cheap price. On a positive note I had good luck using acetone for the cleanup process. Strarted the left tank today and have a QB Fuse on order.
 
not that bad

I found that once I learned to work with it, it wasn't that bad. Try to learn from the rest of us if you can. My first experience with it was very bad (a mess) until I figured out that all application would be done through a loaded syringe. As far as the rags: Cut up a bunch of paper towels into little squares. While you're working, you can just grab a ~2x2" square, quick dip in a little cup of MEK, and wipe any little spot.

My experiences with proseal:
http://rv9a.card-net.org/index.php?s=proseal
 
It all depends on how you go about it. There are several RVs in the local area (mine included) that used only the clecoes to hold the ribs to the tank skin until the proseal set. Make sure you scuff and clean everywhere the proseal needs to stick, apply it to the tank rib with a popsicle stick, put it in place, and put a cleco in EVERY hole. Proseal won't stick in any quantity to the clecoes (my buddy and I used the same clecoes on his and my airplanes and they are still good). The clecoes provide more than enough pressure to pull the rib to the skin, and you can smear proeal along the edges of the rib/tank intersection. Once the proseal is hard, pull out the clecoes, rivet the skin just like the leading edge, and then smear proseal over the shop heads.

We have had NO leaks. One of these aircraft (an RV-6A) has almost 400 hours on it.

Another tip is to wear at least two layers of latex gloves. Never take the bottom layer off. As the upper layers get gooey, take them off until one layer is left and then put more on.

Cheers
 
Proseal

I'm not quite done with my second tank. I have all but the inboard and outboard ribs installed. Things are going faster, and less messier than the first tank (of course). I also highly recommend a large syringe. It's a pain getting the stuff into the syringe, but after that everything is easier. I'm riveting 'wet', so things do get a bit messy, but a roll of paper towels and plenty of MEK clean things up. The cheap latex gloves from CVS hold up pretty well against MEK.
We're all stuck high on the learning curve. By the time we get the hang of how to do things the best way, we're done. These forums help A LOT, but nothing will ever take the mess out of using ProSeal.

Dennis Glaeser
7A Wings
 
proseal

We found the 3 glove method worked quite well for doing the tanks. I'm about to start the 3rd tank (competed tanks for the RV-7A and now doing tanks for the RV-4) and don't expect any problems. We apply 3 pairs of gloves over each other and mix the proseal and strip off the first pair if needed. We then apply the proseal and rivet the ribs and when finished strip the second pair off. We're now ready for the cleanup. We find doing it this way keeps you from contaminating each step in the process with proseal from the previous step.

Philip Mercier
RV-4
Abbotsford BC.
 
Proseal

I found an easy and cheap way to cleanly apply the proseal was after mixing I put the proseal in a ziploc bag. Worked it into the corner and cut a small piece off the corner. Then I used the bag like a pastry bag and squeezed the needed amount along the rib and rear flange. The amount was well controlled and I didn't need a third hand to hold the cup, popcicle stick and rib. Best of all I had less on my gloves and of course all over the sides of the ribs. Cleanup was a snap, "pitched the bag in the trash". One tank done and one to go.

Jim Kinsey
7A Wings
 
rv8bldr said:
It all depends on how you go about it. There are several RVs in the local area (mine included) that used only the clecoes to hold the ribs to the tank skin until the proseal set. Make sure you scuff and clean everywhere the proseal needs to stick, apply it to the tank rib with a popsicle stick, put it in place, and put a cleco in EVERY hole. Proseal won't stick in any quantity to the clecoes (my buddy and I used the same clecoes on his and my airplanes and they are still good). The clecoes provide more than enough pressure to pull the rib to the skin, and you can smear proeal along the edges of the rib/tank intersection. Once the proseal is hard, pull out the clecoes, rivet the skin just like the leading edge, and then smear proseal over the shop heads.

We have had NO leaks. One of these aircraft (an RV-6A) has almost 400 hours on it.

Another tip is to wear at least two layers of latex gloves. Never take the bottom layer off. As the upper layers get gooey, take them off until one layer is left and then put more on.

Cheers
Click to expand...
I like this approach, any other considerations or cons with this approach? Why is it not the standard method for application, it makes a lot of sense...what am i missing?
 
greylingr said:
I like this approach, any other considerations or cons with this approach? Why is it not the standard method for application, it makes a lot of sense...what am i missing?
Click to expand...
A lot of guys are concerned that the Proseal will ruin the clecoes. If you get that stuff on tools and let it harden, it is a bear to get off. The difference with clecoes is that you wind up with a little ball of the stuff on the end of the gripper that comes right off. Sometimes you get some on the shaft of the gripper, but that is not usually a problem. I don't remember how many clecoes I threw out during the process, but it was certainly less than ten, and those ones had already built another set of tanks before mine.

Cheers
 
On the first tank, I wasted time cleaning clecoes. Then I just set aside some as ProSeal clecoes. Once it's all dry, you can just pull the stuff off the shaft. And if there's a little bit on the bottom of the cleco, well you hve a really inexpensive "cleco boot" like they sell at Avery to prevent marring the finish of the AL. :)
 
If I had to build my tanks again, I would set aside full days for riveting and use the cartridges. They are very easy to use and you can put 'em in a regular caulking gun if you tape it into place. After testing my tanks I found a leak but was out of pro-seal so I bought a cartridge to fix the leak. I made absolutely NO mess doing it this way. A little more expensive...but in my opinion worth the convenience.

The cartridges are a one-time use thing..which is why I recommend setting aside a full day of work.
 
Easy way to Seal the Tanks

Another slightly more expensive method is to buy your pro seal from Sealpak
in Wichita KS. Their number is 316 942-6211. You can by 6 oz or
21/2 oz cartridges. They sell a $13 dollar gun to apply the cartridges.
The 6oz is $20 and the 2.5oz is $17. They will fax you a product
catalog and spec sheet on their products. Other people who have
used them swear by it because of the ease of application and less
mess.
 
proseal and clecos

We riveted our tanks wet. When a cleco was removed for a rivet, it was placed in a can of laquer thinners, which made clean up of the clecos, ones that had proseal on them, very easy.
 
snoop9erdog said:
Another slightly more expensive method is to buy your pro seal from Sealpak
in Wichita KS. Their number is 316 942-6211. You can by 6 oz or
21/2 oz cartridges. They sell a $13 dollar gun to apply the cartridges.
The 6oz is $20 and the 2.5oz is $17. They will fax you a product
catalog and spec sheet on their products. Other people who have
used them swear by it because of the ease of application and less
mess.
Click to expand...

It is indeed the best way I've found to apply proseal. And i've done my share of cessna tanks with it :).
 
Risky Business

Rudi,

Clecoing the tank, waiting out cure, then riveting, is highly risky. Rivets squeeze much tighter than any cleco, very evident when wet setting as much more sealant is squeezed out from between the interface than what a cleco produces. What you'd be riveting is a rubber sandwich, very compressible. Having removed the cleco from a cured hole means that only the swelling of the rivet seals the leak path out; usually works, but I'd rather have sealant around the shank and under the head plus a swelled-up rivet plugging the hole.

Wade into the stuff. It's not particularly noxious, and BTW, Toluene is the correct thinner. Keep your hands, tools, and gloves clean, immediately wiping off goobers of black death, and you can fairly well control the mess. I'm pretty fussy, work slow and carefully, and keep things clean as I go. A tank takes me 18 hours including all set- and clean-up.

John Siebold
 
Help with fuel tanks

John Siebold wrote:
Wade into the stuff. It's not particularly noxious, and BTW, Toluene is the correct thinner. Keep your hands, tools, and gloves clean, immediately wiping off goobers of black death, and you can fairly well control the mess. I'm pretty fussy, work slow and carefully, and keep things clean as I go. A tank takes me 18 hours including all set- and clean-up.
Click to expand...

John,
How can I persuade you to come over and help me build my tanks on my 9A? I have plenty of beer and BBQ if that would do the trick.

RVBYSDI
Steve
 
Rudi, I second John's opinion. Not that the "dry" method is bad, just that it isn't for me.

Another thing that I can add is that a cleco will stand straight even if the holes are misaligned.

The parts will cure and one will have to redrill the hole in order to insert a rivet.



:) CJ
 
Let me jump in and agree with RV7Aviator and Captain John:
I work for a major aircraft manufacturer and can tell you for a fact that if you let the sealer set up, inspection will make you tear the assembly down, scrap the the old sealer off (this really sux!), reapply the sealer, shoot the fastners and check for squeeze out. Always install wet!! -- Les
 
Happy Tanksgiving!!

Woo Hoo! :D
Both tanks passed the manometer test this past weekend (finished with a reading this AM).

What an ordeal! I did both tanks at the same time. The first proseal adventure was October 29, so you see it took about a month. It took two episodes (stiffeners, then caps and drains) before really gaining control of the goop with purchased syringes, tonge depressors, popsicle sticks, gloves, MEK and paper towels.

The syringes were easy to load with a tongue depressor since the depressor was about the same size as the syringe. Just scoop it and mash it into the syringe. My wife and I would load one or two syringes and do a couple of ribs a night. We were ready for the back baffles right before the holiday. My kids came home from school and we jumped into it on Friday. With 4 people, it was quick work to butter all the parts, assemble, cleco, rivet, pop rivet, clean up. I hold great regard for the builders that do this by themselves. There was a lot of man hrs into it.

On thing I did notice was that the "proseal" sold by Van's is desolved by MEK even after MANY days of cure (like 10), so it was very easy to get rid of slops and drips that were undesireable. And please don't assume it was mixed wrong because it was not. I used an accurate balance and came out almost perfect at the end of the can.

I am especially happy about the pressure tests because I did not install the access plates. I definitely had "shrinkage" though, per the venerable Seinfeld episode, before the pressure tests :D . I have capacitive gages that should not need maintenance and I felt that if I had some sort of construction leak, the access plate would be in the wrong bay anyway. I saved a bit of weight and have access rings to use in the back baffle if I have a problem later.

Trying to follow an old racing guideline " Worry about the ounces and the pounds will take care of themselves "
 
Way to go, BILL!

I just got done doing the stiffies on my second tank tonight. Took much longer than you, though!

PB280293.jpg


I still need to test the first tank yet.

I am confident, I think!

:D CJ
 
Cartridges

I am going to jump into this thread with my questions...

After reading the responses and talking to a few builders, I am seriously considering going the cartridge route for my tank sealing. It seems like it would be easier. I am also the type of person whom whenever working with glue/paint/caulk/etc. I seem to get it everywhere, so the cartridges might help me cut down on the mess. :)

I called Sealpak and got their price list, but I am curious if anyone knows how many catridges I should plan on using (just for estimating). I also thought about getting a combination of 6 oz. (5 oz. sealant) and 2-1/2 oz. (2 oz.) catridges so that if I had smaller jobs I wouldn't waste sealant, allthough they are only $3 diff, so not sure if there is much value in doing so.

Any comments or suggestions?

One more thing... any comments on manual vs. pnuematic sealant guns?

Thanks!
 
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Proseal quantity data point

Brad,

I mixed up about (60 grams) 2 oz. of proseal per tank rib.

And about 6 oz. for the rear baffle plate.

I'm sure you could get by with using less But I didn't want to take any chances.

Mark
 
I cut up a bunch of the paper blue paper shop into the little two inch squares like the George Orndorf video says and that was a very good thing. I used the popsicle stick with a groove cut out of the middle to clear the rivet shop head and that worked fine too. I think on my second tank I will order some of the cartridges just to make it a cleaner job. I bought a box of the latex or whatever they were made of gloves and everytime I started to goop up I peeled them off and put on a new pair. Another good tip I learned was to put down a sheet of butcher paper under the parts you are working on. That really helps the cleanup. I must have used 20 or 30 pairs on the one tank. It's all a matter of learning to work with the stuff. I remember when I was young watching a pro painter spray military componants with the green paint they use and was amazed at how he didn't have one speck of paint on him or his clothes. I would have had it in my ears and everywhere else by the time I finished the same job. Who knows, I may only ruin three or four shirts this time. :p

Jim Wright RV-9A 90919 wings Arkansas
 
Brad, jump right in! The water is FINE!

Really, PS isn't THAT bad!

I wouldn't waste my loot on cartridges for all the stiffeners and ribs. It is really easier to do those things with the quart sized container! When it comes to the baffle... well, it comes back in SPADES with the cartridges!

It lays down a FAST, EVEN bead that is hard to do with a popsicle stick! Problem is, they are $20 bux a piece!!! Get TWO, 6 oz containers from Spruce. The cost differential is like... dimes.

I dunno why the bigger ones cost less... JUST BUY EM! I had about 1 oz leftover after doing my left baffle.

Hope this helps!

;) CJ
 
Cartridge vs Quart can and syringe

I bought one of the proseal cartridges from Van$ when I ordered the empenage, so I could do the rudder without placing a second order, etc. I thought the mixing procedure of the cartridge was a lot more physically difficult than mixing the two components in a paper cup with a tongue depressor. The cartridge plunger was really hard to move.

I spent a lot of time soul searching and looking at the Semco guns on Ebay before simply ordering the manual quart kit from Van$ for the 40 buck price and simply hoping that I could deal with it. I found it's really no problem. The 30ml syringes available from a local farm store (suggested in the instructions fron Van) are really good. Easy to load and dispense. I think the Semco vs the syringes might be similar to the pneumatic vs manual rivet squeezer debate. Pneumatic is a really nice convenience but manual will do a fine job too. Also, don't be fooled into thinking the cartridges will make the experience completely "clean". They will not. The unavoidable, but entirely OK, mess happens when bucking bar hits proseal.

For me, it took a helper for each session in order to have a positive experience. I did one session by myself and I did not enjoy it at all. I constantly needed a third hand just for simple stuff. Made one hell of a mess and didn't get as much done as planned so I didn't try that again. I saw an earlier post about using 30 gloves for a tank. I think we used 150+ for the two tanks combined. I did change often and continued using them during claenup. Its not a big deal since gloves are cheap.

Vans says you can do the pair of tanks with a 1 quart kit. I second that. I finished with "fumes" in the resin can. Be frugal and you can make it. I didn't skimp on what went on the tank. I just didn't throw much sealant in the garbage. Since my wife and I did "small" batches over many evenings, using the cartridges would have cost a LOT more. Too much in my opinion. I guess it is possible that a marathon day with cartridges would be cost competitive. I don't know.
 
I second the "quart is enuff" comment.

After one tank, it looks like it should be plenty! Of course, it was augmented by two 6 oz. tubes for the semco gun.

Should be just enough!

;) CJ
 
rzbill said:
Vans says you can do the pair of tanks with a 1 quart kit. I second that. I finished with "fumes" in the resin can. Be frugal and you can make it. I didn't skimp on what went on the tank. I just didn't throw much sealant in the garbage. Since my wife and I did "small" batches over many evenings, using the cartridges would have cost a LOT more. Too much in my opinion. I guess it is possible that a marathon day with cartridges would be cost competitive. I don't know.
Click to expand...
I used a couple of quarts on the tank because I followed the Orndorff method "ProSeal is cheap, use plenty of it." And his admonishment while building the tanks, "if you look at it and say 'this can't possibly leak,' it probably won't. But if you look at it and say 'I don't think this can possibly leak,' it probably will.
 
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