SvingenB

Well Known Member
OK, I have searched here and other places as well as talked to several persons, read in books. Still, I am not sure (at all) about what is the best method(s), or the right method for a typical homebuilder like myself. I am not totally void of experience and knowledge about this, since I am an engineer and have worked with this in other contents, but never in homebuilt aircraft.

First, there are two things that seems to be mixed together IMO, priming and anti-corrosion. Often they are the same thing, but just as often they are not. What I mean is that although a primer does protect the metal, it is not certain that the metal is protected, or even seiled without a coating on top of the primer. It all depends on the primer. A typical epoxy primer for metal yachts/ships do superb anti corrosion work, but this is just as much an exception as a rule.

From a technical point of view, I would use an epoxy based primer, but it looks like alot of extra work (masks, breathing apparatus and so on). I am really not sure if this is something that is worth doing due to fumes that will go through the house. The shop is not is not in my living room, and I have space enough to have a room exclusively for the task (not for the entire fuselage and wings though), but still. I don't know.

Etch primers seem to be a good choice toxic vise, but it is also my impression that they are generally being phased out due to the superiority of epoxy based primers. It is also my impression that they will be porous when dry? if they are, then I don't understand how they can be of any use to prevent corrosion on internal parts, it seems counter productive to me. I would believe etch primers are the kind of primers that would need another coating, and preferably while still wet, or semi wet?

Vinyl etch primers seem to give a thin and light protective layer, is this a good choice for internal parts, or are they used for something completely different?

What other coices are there? especially for internal parts.

One last note. When reading about primers it is a lot of words and very little info, and it always ends in a couple of sentences saying that it is all up to the builder to chose what is best for him/her. Why is that? I mean the choice of airplane, engine, instruments is also all up to the builder, but there you can get sensible information so you can do a sensible choice. I'm looking for real info and experience, and I'm sure it must be alot of it here.
 
SvingenB said:
One last note. When reading about primers it is a lot of words and very little info, and it always ends in a couple of sentences saying that it is all up to the builder to chose what is best for him/her. Why is that? I mean the choice of airplane, engine, instruments is also all up to the builder, but there you can get sensible information so you can do a sensible choice. I'm looking for real info and experience, and I'm sure it must be alot of it here.

What's important to you? Safety, cost, ease of use, performance, snob factor, or something else? Prioritize those (and whatever other factors come to mind) and you will probably get some directon from this forum. Otherwise, your question is too general in nature, because the highest performance primers are typically the most expensive, most toxic, and most difficult to use...

One option is to read through the primer threads from the RV-list archives. Any product you can think of has been discussed there and you'll find plenty of useful information within all of the ballyhoo...
 
Hmm. The usual way is to start with the specifications of the top cote, and work backward from there to the primer(s) on the bare material. I don't see how snob factor comes into choice of primer. For internal parts the specifications are to stop/prevent corrosion, weight, durability, then ease of use, how toxic it is, time to dry and so on.

I can find some info on most of the factors, but when it comes to corrosion properties and weight, the two most important factors, the very reason to prime the internal parts in the first place, I can't seem to find any real info on anything except epoxy primers.

The epoxy stuff used for yachts/ships is not particularly expensive, and does a very good job of preventing corrosion on aluminium hulls in sea water. It just seem a bit overkill for the internals in an aircraft. On the other hand, I don't want to apply something that does no real good, it just adds weight.
 
AFS Primer/Sealer

SvingenB said:
What other coices are there? especially for internal parts.

I have been using the AFS primer/sealer product from Stewart Systems (www.aircraftfinishing.com) for my internal parts and am pretty happy with the results. It's water based, so you don't have the nasty chemical problems. That was important to me because I'm shooting it in my attached garage with a house full of kids.

It takes a little practice to apply it smoothly, but once cured, you can tell the stuff is really tough and durable. I really like that it doesn't need a top coat for sealing. I have a few write-ups about it my build log.
 
I started with Sherwin Williams P60 wash primer, ( what Van uses) then switched to Dupont Variprime because I liked the color better. I am now back to Sherwin Williams P 60 as the Dupont Variprime is very porous. If you get a little oil from your skin or dirt on the primed surface you can't clean it off. The P 60 dries to a harder slicker finish that cleans up better if you get dirt or oil on it. I'm using the P60 for inside only and won't be adding a finish coat of any kind. Since the skins are alclad I'm not that worried about corrosion. One of the Van's employee's did a simple test on aluminum over a two year period and proved to me the P 60 is fine. The only thing I would suggest when using the P-60 is use one part primer and two parts activator instead of one to one. It sprays much easier and looks better. I've had parts laying around for three years and the P60 seems to be doing it's job. I'm leaving the outside skins bare since I'm going to have my plane painted. I don't live on the coast where salt in the air is a problem so this is sufficient in my opinion, and we know what opinions are worth.
Good luck on building. I'm half way through the fuselage and beginning to see there is an airplane somewhere in my future. :)
 
I like the SW primer too and used it early on. But, you know, mixxing, setting up the spreayer, the time to clean up afterwards, the mess.... it just seemed like too much work for me. So I switched to the rattle cans.
 
Toddav8r said:
I have been using the AFS primer/sealer product from Stewart Systems (www.aircraftfinishing.com) for my internal parts and am pretty happy with the results. It's water based, so you don't have the nasty chemical problems. That was important to me because I'm shooting it in my attached garage with a house full of kids.

It takes a little practice to apply it smoothly, but once cured, you can tell the stuff is really tough and durable. I really like that it doesn't need a top coat for sealing. I have a few write-ups about it my build log.
This looks like it could be exactly the kind of thing I am looking for. Thanks alot for the link.
 
A couple of additional comments about primers and anti-corrosion coatings:
First, you should be aware that using Alodine as a surface treatment offers some additional corrosion resistance over bare aluminum. More importantly, it provides a base on to which most primers will adhere. Early in my own project, I conducted a series of corrosion tests (ASTM Salt Spray) on a variety of samples including bare aluminum, Alclad, alodined, and zinc chromate. On the basis of this testing, I would offer the following:
For your application, I would strongly suggest that any bare aluminum (parts fabricated from angle) be both alodined and coated with an anti-corrosive barrier. I would also alodine all ribs (easy to do using a small plastic tub and etching first). If it is easiest for you to use a rattle can, you can readily purchase zinc chromate and spray the rib flanges as well as the area of the skin that will contact the rib flange. Also spray any overlaping skin joints. Be sure to have good ventilation and wear an appropriate mask.
While zinc chromate is old technology, it is still very effective and does not require mixing as many of the epoxies do. If your plan is to build and utilize a spray booth, then by all means, consider using an epoxy primer. Finally, as I understand that your aircraft will be in close proximity to the sea, I would also recommend that the first year after painting the exterior, you consider using one of the spray-in barrier coatings (CorrosionX is one of several that comes to mind) that can be quite effective. Most of these coating are a bit messy but will cover all enclosed surface areas and will last several years. On your annual inspections, look closey along rivet lines, both interior and exterior and pay close attention to low points in the structure and any other areas where condensation may accumulate.
If done correctly, no reason your structure won't last 50+ years.
Sorry for the late response.
Good Luck,
Terry
 
I think epoxy based primer is more or less out of the question due to the toxic fumes that would penetrate my house where my shop is. I have a large garage, but it is not heated.

I contacted AFS, and it turns out their products are readily available here in Europe. A Dutch guy living in France has exclusive dealer rights here. http://www.aeropicardie.com/stewartsystems/produits.html

Alodine + zinc chromate still looks relatively easy, and is a well proven method as I understand. Is it light weight also?
 
The alodine (typically applied following an application of Alumiprep) is a surface conversion product and adds little/no weight. If you're using zinc chromate only on contact surfaces, very little weight as well. Regarding application of the finish, you DO NOT want to do this in your house. Make sure you wear a cartridge type respirator at the very least as the fumes are toxic.
Terry
 
Do you also prime the alclad on internal parts?

Edit: OOps, I wasn't aware that it was an entire section for primers alone on this forum :eek: Alot of info there.
 
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