T

Transporter

Well Known Member
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Looks like the going rate for the IO-390 is now upwards of $39K. That's a big jump from the $33K ballpark in 2008/$31.5K in 2007.

I'm also looking at IO-360 engines and I'm starting to see similar price increases for other experimental engines.

Are price jumps this large normal in the industry? Or is this due to lack of competition for Lycoming parts now that Superior has closed its doors?

Any rumor of engine specials for Sun-N-Fun?

Mike
 
engine prices

I am praying for a miracle too.
I should have ordered my prop and io320 with roller tappets last year for 22K. Now i am going to get killed. Very very sad.
No recession in the lycoming plant i guess.
 
Are They Aware Of The Economy

Are the engine manufacturers aware of the economic downturn? I'll be darned if I am going to pay price increases on new engines when my house, 401k and stock holdings just depreciated dramatically in the last few years.

This is very frustrating. Perhaps this building route is not the right thing for me. Getting rid of this project, though tremendously disappointing, would thrill my wife and allow me to return to where I was -- a 70s vintage Cessna that requires annuals performed by an A&P.
 
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Prices

I just ordered my motor from Mattituck a few weeks ago. The price was down a bit from last fall and summers price.

Still a big pile of money though, and it didn't come down like my home value or 401K, but it didn't go up!

IO 360, fuel injected with dual p-mags and horizontal cold air sump.:p
 
You don't have to buy new although I wish I had the money to do so. You can still find some good deals on used engines and props, some with low times. That's what I did. A 2001 IO-540 V4A5 w/461 hours SNEW @ $13,500 with all accessories and log books. A mild prop strike that will require a tear down and inspection which I will do. With the prop flange @ .010 run out, I feel I feel I got a bargain, even if the crankshaft can not be overhauled.
 
I agree with David...I bought an O-360-A with 252 hours on it since new that had a prop strike (7A rollover). It was already torn down, inspected, and rebuilt, with a .004 prop flange, with all accessories and logs for $11,000...there are deals out there...just gotta find 'em.

;)
 
Engine Prices

Check out ECI's IO-360 Kit Engine. I have about $20,000.00 in mine after assembly.
 
ECI

Give Americas Aircraft Engines a call.
I have had good luck with their ECI engines. 888-371-1371
 
Yesterday I saw a neat little motorcycle so I decided to see who made it and went the the Yamaha site. While there I looked at their outboard motors and talk about sticker shock, it is a good thing I have a strong heart, $32,000 for their big outboard, $32,000.

I will still complain about the price of aircraft engines, but not as much or as loudly as before. Did I mention $32,000 for an outboard.

Bob Parry
 
$100/HP

was the understood rule when it came to buying the older 2 stroke outboards. Didn't matter if it 40HP or 200HP, it was $100/HP. I can imagine they have increased by 30-40% easily with all the fancy variable valvle timing, electronic ignition blah blah blah by now. And the people with the $35k bass boat and the $40k truck say flying is expensive.


robpar said:
Yesterday I saw a neat little motorcycle so I decided to see who made it and went the the Yamaha site. While there I looked at their outboard motors and talk about sticker shock, it is a good thing I have a strong heart, $32,000 for their big outboard, $32,000.

I will still complain about the price of aircraft engines, but not as much or as loudly as before. Did I mention $32,000 for an outboard.

Bob Parry
Click to expand...
 
Gary Bricker

If everyone who needs an engine just puts it on hold I bet Lyc will see the light in about 6mo. Worth the wait.
 
Engine prices

Maybe I am missing something here but I just looked at Van's prices for experimental engines and they appear to be the same as last year. I bought an X0-360 A1A in August for the same price they have listed today. The other engines also appear to be priced the same.
 
Getting a New Engine

One of the sources for ECI kit engines that you might consider is http://www.lycon.com/

Kenny Tunnel is the owner. Here in California many experimentals (and certified planes) are flying with Lycon engines.

In my case I purchased an IO-320 mildly leaned on. It put out 202 hp on the dyno. Kenny ground runs each new engine 5 hours on their dyno and you get a computerized print out with a number of interesting parameters.

I can go fast and burn 9.2 gph at 7,500 feet or slow down to 160 and burn 4.9. I prefer to go fast.

At last years Reno Air Races, Lycon engines were running in 27 racers....Shawn Tucker has used Lycon engines for many many years.

I just talked to Kenny today and his business is still running a back log which to me shows that cream always rises to the top.

If you can't go full boat on a new engine, you just might find a way (if you're not in a rush) to get something that will be very special and not break your bank account. Kenny is a good guy and if you get an opportunity to talk with him and tell him your situation, you might be surprised what you can work out.

I know this sounds like a commercial, but when you work with a quality company like Lycon, you want everyone to know what fine folks they are.

Tom Hunter
 
Price Basis

Mike,
As I said in the opening post, the price for an IO-390 now tops $39K. Mattituck's website now says "attractively priced at $39,100." BPE has also raised their price to the $39K bracket for this engine.

Smaller engines (I've been watching IO-360 180hp) have also gone up in price and the prices are being reflected on various websites as they are updated.

Van's has been closed over the weekend but I plan to call them tomorrow. Van's website (like everyone else) has the usual disclaimer "Prices subject to change without notice" but I'm hoping the increases haven't hit them yet.

My intent is not to bash any vendors-it just seems strange that we're seeing such a large price increase. I'm sure most of them aren't happy either-I know I wouldn't be if I were in the engine business!

Thanks Jay-I'll check out America's Aircraft Engines-didn't have any price info from them on my spreadsheet.

Mike
 
You can't beat Mattituck! Prices are the same as when I bought my IO360 almost two years ago and after 180 hrs of flight time I could not be any happier with their product.
Randy Utsey
N55CU / RV-7
Charlotte, N.C.
 
Mike,
Got this off the net a few minutes ago. I noticed that Barrett doesn't put his prices on his website now. As I recall the 390 was about $34K a couple of months ago.
Aero Sport Power IO-390 (210 H.P.) Engines:

Constant Speed Outright with Lycoming Roller Tappet Technology $ 36,500.00 US

Don Stiver
 
Gary Bricker said:
If everyone who needs an engine just puts it on hold I bet Lyc will see the light in about 6mo. Worth the wait.
Click to expand...

Well, let's see....

With the downturn in the commercial aircraft business;
and everyone building Van's aircraft putting their engines on hold..

Maybe Lycoming will be shutting it's doors in six months..

I don't think this is the best approach :(

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Aero Sport 390 ~ $36K

Aero Sport Power Engines lists their 390 for around $36K. Barrett used to show their prices but I see nothing is listed anymore.
 
Transporter said:
Looks like the going rate for the IO-390 is now upwards of $39K. That's a big jump from the $33K ballpark in 2008/$31.5K in 2007.

I'm also looking at IO-360 engines and I'm starting to see similar price increases for other experimental engines.

Are price jumps this large normal in the industry? Or is this due to lack of competition for Lycoming parts now that Superior has closed its doors?

Any rumor of engine specials for Sun-N-Fun?

Mike
Click to expand...

That would definitely have killed the 390 for me. Glad I've got mine already.
 
Same Price for Thunderbolt IO-390

Transporter said:
Mike,
As I said in the opening post, the price for an IO-390 now tops $39K. Mattituck's website now says "attractively priced at $39,100." BPE has also raised their price to the $39K bracket for this engine.

Smaller engines (I've been watching IO-360 180hp) have also gone up in price and the prices are being reflected on various websites as they are updated.

Van's has been closed over the weekend but I plan to call them tomorrow. Van's website (like everyone else) has the usual disclaimer "Prices subject to change without notice" but I'm hoping the increases haven't hit them yet.

My intent is not to bash any vendors-it just seems strange that we're seeing such a large price increase. I'm sure most of them aren't happy either-I know I wouldn't be if I were in the engine business!

Thanks Jay-I'll check out America's Aircraft Engines-didn't have any price info from them on my spreadsheet.

Mike
Click to expand...

The Thunderbolt IO-390 from Lycoming is still $32,650, not sure where the information came from that the price went up.
 
MarinePilot said:
The Thunderbolt IO-390 from Lycoming is still $32,650, not sure where the information came from that the price went up.
Click to expand...

Click on the Mattituck link on this website, then click on the IO390 link in the center:..."The TMXIO-390 engine producing 210 horsepower is attractively priced at $39,100.00 outright."

When I priced this same engine two weeks ago it was competitive with the Thunderbolt price you've referenced (taking into account the Lycoming equivalent of Mattituck's Red/Gold process). Now it's much more expensive. In other words, the price went up.

Without belaboring the point, prices have increased at a number of vendors.

The really good news: Barb at Van's says that their engine prices should hold until August.

Mike
 
I understand

Transporter said:
Click on the Mattituck link on this website, then click on the IO390 link in the center:..."The TMXIO-390 engine producing 210 horsepower is attractively priced at $39,100.00 outright."

When I priced this same engine two weeks ago it was competitive with the Thunderbolt price you've referenced (taking into account the Lycoming equivalent of Mattituck's Red/Gold process). Now it's much more expensive. In other words, the price went up.

Without belaboring the point, prices have increased at a number of vendors.

The really good news: Barb at Van's says that their engine prices should hold until August.

Mike
Click to expand...

It just seemed that several people on this post assumed that the Thunderbolt prices had risen and wanted Lycoming to go out of business. My point was that the prices for the Thunderbolt Experimental engines have not increased and some have actually gone done in price. Thank you for your response.
 
I did a quick data gathering from a few of the engine sellers out there... Granted this may not be apples to apples if a vendor includes some other accessories in the price, etc. But I thought it was interesting.

Code: 
                                                             Vans                     AeroSport Power                  Mattituck                    Thunderbolt
                Engine                      HP          Price        Cost/HP          Price        Cost/HP          Price        Cost/HP          Price        Cost/HP
                O-320-D1A                   160     $21,950.00        $137.19     $23,200.00        $145.00                         $0.00     $23,150.00        $144.69
                IO-320-D1A                  160     $21,950.00        $137.19     $24,200.00        $151.25                         $0.00                         $0.00
                IO-320-D2G                  160     $21,650.00        $135.31                         $0.00                         $0.00                         $0.00
                O-360-A1A                   180     $22,450.00        $124.72     $24,400.00        $135.56                         $0.00     $24,300.00        $135.00
                IO-360-M1B                  180     $24,400.00        $135.56     $26,700.00        $148.33                         $0.00     $29,100.00        $161.67
                IO-360-A1B6                 200     $30,700.00        $153.50     $36,500.00        $182.50                         $0.00     $34,600.00        $173.00
                IO-390                      210                         $0.00     $36,500.00        $173.81     $39,100.00        $186.19     $32,650.00        $155.48
                IO-540-D4A5                 260     $37,150.00        $142.88     $38,900.00        $149.62                         $0.00     $40,600.00        $156.15

Best bang for the buck seems to be getting a O-360-A1A from Vans. for $22,450 which is $124.72 per HP.

I was originally planning on a IO-360-A1B6, or a IO-390, but I'm not sure I can justify the ~$13,000 for 20-30 HP.
 
Updated price on the IO-360-A1B6

RyanM said:
I did a quick data gathering from a few of the engine sellers out there... Granted this may not be apples to apples if a vendor includes some other accessories in the price, etc. But I thought it was interesting.

Code: 
                                                             Vans                     AeroSport Power                  Mattituck                    Thunderbolt
                Engine                      HP          Price        Cost/HP          Price        Cost/HP          Price        Cost/HP          Price        Cost/HP
                O-320-D1A                   160     $21,950.00        $137.19     $23,200.00        $145.00                         $0.00     $23,150.00        $144.69
                IO-320-D1A                  160     $21,950.00        $137.19     $24,200.00        $151.25                         $0.00                         $0.00
                IO-320-D2G                  160     $21,650.00        $135.31                         $0.00                         $0.00                         $0.00
                O-360-A1A                   180     $22,450.00        $124.72     $24,400.00        $135.56                         $0.00     $24,300.00        $135.00
                IO-360-M1B                  180     $24,400.00        $135.56     $26,700.00        $148.33                         $0.00     $29,100.00        $161.67
                IO-360-A1B6                 200     $30,700.00        $153.50     $36,500.00        $182.50                         $0.00     $34,600.00        $173.00
                IO-390                      210                         $0.00     $36,500.00        $173.81     $39,100.00        $186.19     $32,650.00        $155.48
                IO-540-D4A5                 260     $37,150.00        $142.88     $38,900.00        $149.62                         $0.00     $40,600.00        $156.15

Best bang for the buck seems to be getting a O-360-A1A from Vans. for $22,450 which is $124.72 per HP.

I was originally planning on a IO-360-A1B6, or a IO-390, but I'm not sure I can justify the ~$13,000 for 20-30 HP.
Click to expand...


This engine (IO-360-A1B6) actually is one that went down in price, it now goes for $31,400
The engine IO-360-M1A/B (180 hp) is now $25,400
 
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Price Reduction?

MarinePilot said:
This engine (IO-360-A1B6) actually is one that went down in price, it now goes for $31,400
The engine IO-360-M1A/B (180 hp) is now $25,400
Click to expand...

MarinePilot,

Ryan's chart is real similar to the spreadsheet I've been using for my own research (including the $/hp comparison).

I've found it challenging to compare vendors using info from the internet since their sites don't provide the same information.

Vendors use different processes (flow matching, balancing, etc.) and include custom features (chrome, custom paint, etc.) as part of their experimental engine offerings. Difference in accessories (brand of fuel injection, starter (included or not), etc.), and warranty coverage also make price comparisons challenging.

Having said that, any price reduction, regardless of vendor, sounds like good news!

Can you tell us who's cut their prices?

Mike
 
Mike:

I'll start this response by apolozing for my upcoming rant. MarinePilot is Jeff Schans. He is the sales manager for Thunderbolt. So, what he is saying is that Lycoming continues to pass huge increases on to its kit engine partners while lowering their in house prices. Hmmmm.

A huge amount of our cost is in the labor to port your cylinders, add a three angle intake/exhaust seat cut, balancing your factory new crankshaft, matching rod and piston weights, masking and painting your engine prior to assembly, installing your engine on our dyno (not a test stand) and running it for 1.5 hours. Not to mention the after sale support and help trouble shooting installation issues. To be frank, people like Mahlon, Bart, Allen and myself spend a tremendous amount of time and energy assisting this building community. Maybe that's not as important as I thought . . . but don't call my shop when the tech rep at 1-800 Lycoming can't answer your problem or only spews company jargon/policy your way when you have a question.
 
Transporter said:
Click on the Mattituck link on this website, then click on the IO390 link in the center:..."The TMXIO-390 engine producing 210 horsepower is attractively priced at $39,100.00 outright."

When I priced this same engine two weeks ago it was competitive with the Thunderbolt price you've referenced (taking into account the Lycoming equivalent of Mattituck's Red/Gold process). Now it's much more expensive. In other words, the price went up.

Without belaboring the point, prices have increased at a number of vendors.

The really good news: Barb at Van's says that their engine prices should hold until August.

Mike
Click to expand...

Isn't the TMXIO 390 turbo-normalized? That will run you a hefty premium over the base engine.

Maybe that's where the disconnect is coming from.
 
rgbewley said:
Mike:
.................Maybe that's not as important as I thought . . . but don't call my shop when the tech rep at 1-800 Lycoming can't answer your problem or only spews company jargon/policy your way when you have a question.
Click to expand...

Well....it's important to this little part of the building community.
Barrett's reputation, as a company, and the individuals that make the company, was the deciding factor in my purchase of the 390.
Haven't flown yet, but you've (you personally & the company) have tried to insure my ignorant questions are satisfactorily answered.
I consider my dealings with you personally, and with Barrett Performance, very good experiences that have already made my building experience a "good thing".
Thanks! Rhonda & all at BPE!
 
Transporter said:
MarinePilot,

Ryan's chart is real similar to the spreadsheet I've been using for my own research (including the $/hp comparison).

I've found it challenging to compare vendors using info from the internet since their sites don't provide the same information.

Vendors use different processes (flow matching, balancing, etc.) and include custom features (chrome, custom paint, etc.) as part of their experimental engine offerings. Difference in accessories (brand of fuel injection, starter (included or not), etc.), and warranty coverage also make price comparisons challenging.

Having said that, any price reduction, regardless of vendor, sounds like good news!

Can you tell us who's cut their prices?

Mike
Click to expand...


Mike,

The Thunderbolt Engine comes with cylinders that are port and polished and includes a fuel injector of your choosing, depending on the model the starter and alternator are also included. We also bring our pistons and connecting rods to within a half gram of each other. Lycoming currently has 3 tech reps in the factory answering up to 60 calls per day (per tech rep) Lycoming also has 3 tech reps in the field to help with any field issues that may pop up. I have just arrived back to the factory after visiting 4 different EAA chapters, one in Buffalo last week, and 3 this week. (Charlotte, NC;Williamsburg, VA; and Hollywood, MD.) I talked about Thunderbolt Engines and also answered tech questions from the groups. I will be visiting several EAA chapters on the way to Sun-n-Fun this April and on the way back. Let me know where you are located and I will try to visit your EAA chapter and do a presentation. :)
Let me know if you have any further questions.

P.S. Our tech reps answer questions for everyone, it does not matter who builds the engine. :)
 
Predatory Practices Be Gone

Rhonda,

I think the experimental aircraft community for the most part would prefer to purchase engines from builders of experimental engines. I for one see huge value add in what people like you, Mattituck and Aerosport provide, particularly in terms of design enhancements and support.

It appears that Lycoming is engaging in some predatory practices to reclaim lost business. I don't know how you can beat them at this game unless you can obtain parts elsewhere.

Price is unfortunately a motivating factor in any expensive purchase consideration, but I still think people are going to pay more for innovation, support and to keep people more closely aligned with our community in business.

Best of luck.

Antony

rgbewley said:
Mike:

I'll start this response by apolozing for my upcoming rant. MarinePilot is Jeff Schans. He is the sales manager for Thunderbolt. So, what he is saying is that Lycoming continues to pass huge increases on to its kit engine partners while lowering their in house prices. Hmmmm.

A huge amount of our cost is in the labor to port your cylinders, add a three angle intake/exhaust seat cut, balancing your factory new crankshaft, matching rod and piston weights, masking and painting your engine prior to assembly, installing your engine on our dyno (not a test stand) and running it for 1.5 hours. Not to mention the after sale support and help trouble shooting installation issues. To be frank, people like Mahlon, Bart, Allen and myself spend a tremendous amount of time and energy assisting this building community. Maybe that's not as important as I thought . . . but don't call my shop when the tech rep at 1-800 Lycoming can't answer your problem or only spews company jargon/policy your way when you have a question.
Click to expand...
 
BPE

Rhonda,
As you know, we've got several RVs here in KC either flying or getting ready to fly with the BPE IO-390.

That's not by accident. It's a great engine and you should be proud of it. I've also appreciated the support you've provided, particularly to our local builder community.

The BPE IO-390 was and still is on my 'dream list.' Unfortunately, the gap between dream and reality just got wider.

Please don't take offense at a price discussion on VAF...most of us are just trying to build airplanes we can afford. Cost certainly isn't the only factor, but it is an important part of our purchase decision.

Best regards,

Mike
 
Mike and everyone. Thanks for the notes and positive comments. I am certainly not offended by the discussions regarding pricing, and I'm very sensitive to everyone's concerns about the rising costs of building and maintaining their aircraft. I do tend to agree that the whole thing smacks of predatory practices, especially in light of Avco's pending asset purchase of Superior.

We, of course, would never turn away someone who needs assistance or has a problem. That's our specialty. We tell people to send it to us when they want it fixed.
 
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