D

Dances with Bassets

Member
Anyone else notice that the firewall forward kit just went up $1300 bucks. Ouch! :eek: Wish we could of had a chance to place an order before this occurred. I never saw a notice of a pending increase.
 
Wow and I am about to order mine! With the currency values as they are, it should have DROPPED about that much. I agree, it would have been nice to have given us a warning.
 
Since I don't care a flip about ELSA, it seems to be a very good time to think seriously about Viking or Jabiru and go EAB. I may be wrong, but it would appear we are being taken advantage of, someone is looking at the fact that there are like 400 RV 12 kits out there wanting an engine for a plane that has a Rotax planned for. I would have already ordered, but the 18 months warranty starts when Vans buys the engine, I thought it would be nice to at least have a few days warranty after I first started the engine.
I hate it when there is only one ball game in town.
 
simply foreign exchange rate...
...just the other way for once...

could we re-purchase the parts for our -7A at today's exchange rate, the whole plane would be at least 30% cheaper overall than what we had to spend over the years.

while money is/can be a constraint, the flying virus is just much stronger :)
 
Speaking of price...

Our Jabiru-powered RV-12 flew today for the first time. :cool:

The Jabiru 2200 engine and firewall-forward kit retails for $18,750*. Included is:

Jabiru 2200 85-hp engine
Engine mount
Fiberglass cowling
Sensenich wood propeller
Polished aluminum spinner
Cabin heat kit
Carburetor heat/air filter box
Oil cooler & oil recovery system
Engine controls (friction-lock throttle, carb heat and choke)
Hardware
And, most likely, an underwing pitot tube kit, since we don't run the pitot out the front of the spinner.

*Yesterday I listed $18,450 as the price, which was incorrect. This kit includes more standard components than our other firewall-forward kits, such as cabin heat and the polished spinner. Cabin heat alone is normally a $300 option.

You can follow our progress here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=66354
 
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DonFromTX said:
Since I don't care a flip about ELSA, it seems to be a very good time to think seriously about Viking or Jabiru and go EAB. I may be wrong, but it would appear we are being taken advantage of, someone is looking at the fact that there are like 400 RV 12 kits out there wanting an engine for a plane that has a Rotax planned for. I would have already ordered, but the 18 months warranty starts when Vans buys the engine, I thought it would be nice to at least have a few days warranty after I first started the engine.
I hate it when there is only one ball game in town.
Click to expand...

Another Great alternative would be the UL Power Engine that is now avialable in the USA I belive they are looking for Participants to construct a FWF Kit for the RV12........I'm sure some guys could get a great deal there! They sure are a Great Engine!
 
Warranty start

DonFromTX said:
I would have already ordered, but the 18 months warranty starts when Vans buys the engine, I thought it would be nice to at least have a few days warranty after I first started the engine.
Click to expand...

Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the warranty period begins at first engine start, not from when Vans buys the engine.
 
RV-13??

Since I'm already committed to the RV-12, I'll pay the price of the Rotax that the declining dollar causes. But maybe now is a good time for Van's to consider designing another LSA around one of the good old American engines - say Lycoming??

I think that would pretty much stop the 'over the barrel' feeling that I now have regards Rotax.

I'll bet that some of the engineering staff already have a sketch or two on the drawing board - they are listening to us - right?? I'd sell my RV-12 kit and buy an RV-13 kit powered by a Lycoming.
 
Rotax Warranty & UL Power

The warranty starts when the engine is delivered to the builder. 18 months after that date or 200hrs which ever occurs first.

Maybe UL power should copy the way Katies group markets a new engine for a new kit.:)
 
Yeah, I am sure, checked with the importer and LEAF, I was ready to buy the engine a month ago, but that stopped me, Vans had them in stock at that time (no idea how long they had been in stock using up warranty).. The warranty is 18 months or 200 hours, WHICHEVER COMES FIRST!. The 18 months starts when Vans buys the engine from the importer, the 200 hours starts when you start the engine. Of course that means nobody can get the 18 months on an experimental you are building, and if you are slow building there would be no warranty at all,
rgmwa said:
Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the warranty period begins at first engine start, not from when Vans buys the engine.
Click to expand...
 
DonFromTX said:
Yeah, I am sure, checked with the importer and LEAF, I was ready to buy the engine a month ago, but that stopped me, Vans had them in stock at that time (no idea how long they had been in stock using up warranty).. The warranty is 18 months or 200 hours, WHICHEVER COMES FIRST!. The 18 months starts when Vans buys the engine from the importer, the 200 hours starts when you start the engine. Of course that means nobody can get the 18 months on an experimental you are building, and if you are slow building there would be no warranty at all,
Click to expand...

Don, John and others,

I believe you are wrong with respect to the warranty, unless something has changed. When I purchased the engine kit there was a form that all of us filled out that was electronically sent to ROTAX. The form essentially extended the warranty "start" date to first engine start. Was sort of a special exemption for the home builder. Look carefully on the ROTAX site for the electronic form. Maybe someone has the link.
 
Maybe it has changed Marty. I got my information first of all from Vans about a month ago. Others claimed I had gotten it wrong, and suggested I check with LEAF, who confirmed what Vans told me. I then was referred to the importer, who again confirmed what Vans said. I think I saved it all somewhere, all of this was in writing, and even supported by specific quotes by paragragh of the Rotax written warranty policy.
I think it gets confused because as you say, the HOURS start when you start it up (if the 18 months has not already expired). Had it not been for this information, I would have bought an engine some time ago. I would appreciate any information to the contrary of what I was furnished, giving a homebuilder a break.
 
Don and all:

Go to the following website....This is the website I remember using to apply for the exemption and register for the warranty.

http://www.rotec.com/RSS2001/NewEngReg.php

From the website.....

"By default, your Rotax new engine warranty period begins when you purchase your engine even if you do not operate your engine or complete your engine registration. A warranty period deferment program has been developed to assist those new engine owners who may not be operating their engine until several months after purchase. This program is only available to owners who request a warranty deferment through the engine registration process. Engines must be registered within 90 days of the date of purchase to be eligible to request a warranty deferment. Delaying the registration of a new Rotax aircraft engine may result in the engine warranty period expiring before the engine is operated for the first time.

If you have an engine serial number, you can try it as I did. Maybe the ROTAX folks just plain do not talk to one another.

Also, see this thread from 2010.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=54752&highlight=rotec.com

I think Pete Anderson used this website to register and did not have a warranty problem with a bad engine component (ignition module, maybe?).
 
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Most interesting, the fog is indeed lifting! It would appear that this "warranty deferment for homebuilders" is a well kept secret from those who should know, and is not included in the Rotax warranty writings.. Vans of all people should be very informed on this I would think. Regardless, apparently my misinformation just cost me $1300.
 
I am not sure if I learned a lesson or not, interesting that this mis information took $1300 out of my pocket and put it in the pocket of the mis informer. I DID search the forum, and there was disagreement on the warranty period. I did what I considered appropriate under those circumstances, and went to Vans. Not wanting to believe one source, I went to the importer and the service center, both agreed with Vans, even quoted me the very same reference, see below. I bellyached about that being unfair to homebuilders to Vans and LEAF, both just said tough and did not offer any information about a warranty for homebuilders. Here is a copy of the communication from Vans:

On 11 Apr 2011 at 16:34, Don and Geneda wrote:
I had not understood the warranty to be that way. In fact, Rotax
service letter dtd Mar 30, 2009 states the warranty begins the date
the product was first put into use. Is the "receipt of engine"
criteria something that is peculiar to Vans?

Answer from Vans:
Warranty begins when you receive the engine and goes for 18 months or
200 hrs- whichever comes first.
I am attaching the warranty info I got that from. That's what I
understood from it. Rotax's email address is on the front page so you
could ask them directly if you want.
Attached by Vans:
4. COVERAGE PERIOD AND WHAT BRP-POWERTRAIN WILL DO

This warranty will be in effect:
- In case of the warranty period being measured in hours of operations: from the date the Product is first put into use.
- In case of the warranty period being measured in months: from the date of delivery to the first retail consumer, but in no event later than SIX (6) MONTHS after BP-Powertrain invoice date regarding the sale of the Product to an authorized Rotax Distributor/Dealer.

.
 
I dunno if this is all correct. From Rotax Service Letter SL-912-012 R2, section 4, there's this:

"Warranty will be in effect:

- in case of the warranty period being measured in hours of operations: from the date the Product is first put into use.

- in case of the warranty period being measured in months: from the date of delivery to the first retail customer, but in no event later than SIX (6) MONTHS after BRP-Powertrain invoice date regarding the sale of the Product to an authorized Rotax Distributor/Dealer...."

I haven't found an R3, but the R1 doesn't include these terms.

Dave
 
I certainly intend to do just that. I am having trouble deciding just who at Vans would be genuinely interested in these facts. Obviously the person who signed the emails would not be interested.
 
The Viking HF-110

It is great news that more engines are becoming available for this outstanding airplane. Viking Aircraft Engines has also been busy perfecting a drop-in replacement for the Rotax. (A firewall forward package, based on a reputable Honda core) The Viking HF-110 is the most powerful contender for the RV-12 at 110hp and coincidentally, the least expensive. Comple with propeller, spinner, mounting and cowling, the total cost is $14,280
Take a look at
http://www.vikingaircraftengines.com/RV-12.html
for more information.
Over 80 Vikings have been sold so far and the firt will fly before Air Venture 2011

Jan
 
Thank You Marty

I am still hot under the collar for being misled by Vans and it costing me $1300. We professional tightwads don't get over something like that quickly.
However I owe a big thank you to Marty for finally getting to the bottom of this and clearing it up for us all. Thanks Marty.
 
DonFromTX said:
I am still hot under the collar for being misled by Vans and it costing me $1300. We professional tightwads don't get over something like that quickly.and a
However I owe a big thank you to Marty for finally getting to the bottom of this and clearing it up for us all. Thanks Marty.
Click to expand...

At the risk of turning this into a political debate I would suggest to you neither Vans or Rotax is responsible for the devaluation of the USD, and as a student of economics I would also suggest; "You ain't seen nuttn yet." ;)
 
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To Larry's point:

EU value today: 1.43070
EU value one year ago today: 1.23612

We've lived mostly on currencies other than the U.S. Peso for the last 11 years (or just about the time the most recent USD slide began). I guess that makes us 'students of economics' as well, and with no more optimism for the USD's future than Larry expresses. Except for the PIIGS, Don would probably be out even more money.

FWIW I still don't have clarity on what the Rotax warranty policy currently is for the home builder who purchases from Van's today. I do understand what some folks found it to be in the past...but for me, the source of confusion is a lack of clarity on which language applies on who's warranty. I have this sense - just a hunch - that the language, whatever it is, is being determined by someone on Bay Street in downtown Nassau. Now that is a troubling thought...

Jack
 
Hi Jack,

The real problem is Rotax playing games to not have business dealings in the USA, they put way to many middlemen in the game and each cost you and me 10% or more plus a lot of shipping that is wasted and not cheap. It is time for Rotax to get in the US market with proper product support and stop making us pay for three middlemen and then not get any real product support as their distributors have limited interest in helping us if we did not purchase our engine directly from them, which we can not do, and they carry very limited parts, many of which are old stock that have to be sold before we can have the current and hopefully better parts. It is still hard to get the current float for the carb and we can not get the better fuel pump, I am sure our counterparts in Europe who are served directly by Rotax can get both with just an order, they do not have to ask "Am I going to get the current part" like we do.

We should not have to deal with the same middlemen to get warranty service, how would Rotax ever get the real story on a part that is not working well when they never talk to any actual user, they only talk to dealers who must say nice things about them to keep their dealership so they say we are all nut cases and Rotax is perfect.

This is why even though they make a fine engine there is so much demand for a replacement. Soon one of the companies that are trying to make a better engine will and Rotax will go the way of NARCO or King radios.

I hope Rotax can get its head out of the sand and work with their customers but I have not seen any light at the end of the tunnel yet.

Best regards,
Vern
 
I got bit by similar circumstances...

re a PS Engineering intercom. bought it, kept it in the cool dry place for two years, put it into the A/C and powered it up. Defective, admitted by PS...but the warranty was up, so as someone said, "Tough." Paid to get it fixed, which was of course cheaper than buying another. but it's annoying to pay to fix something that should have been new at the purchase price. we just have to look around closely and read the fine print when we buy stuff, and not buy it apparently until we need it...
 
Apparently I was not clear, the currency exchange rate is what it is.. I DO blame Vans and Rotax, here is why: While in the process of ordering my engine back in April, I was told by Vans that the warranty started the day I got the engine, period. When I questioned them, Vans reassured me that that is the way it is, and gave me a quote of this fact (see my post above). I checked their false story against Rotax and GOT ANOTHER FALSE STORY!! As a result I delayed my order until the last minute to avoid warranty loss. NOW I find the truth of the matter is that a homebuilder buying a Rotax has TWENTY FOUR MONTHS to defer the start of the warranty clock! That mistake of theirs cost me the $1300, not the currency rate.
Rotax I might forgive, they sell a lot of stuff to lots of people and to them that seemed correct. Vans on the other hand, I am sure has heard of homebuilts and has sold over 100 Rotax engines to homebuilders. I find it indefensible that they would not know care about the warranty on the engine they sell us. They should know that, and I should not have to pay for their mistake.
.
Geico266 said:
At the risk of turning this into a political debate I would suggest to you neither Vans or Rotax is responsible for the devaluation of the USD, and as a student of economics I would also suggest; "You ain't seen nuttn yet." ;)
Click to expand...
 
Don, I think we do understand your point, as you described the process you went through - and the answers you received - quite clearly. And to your point, it is distressing when one works his way up an appropriate information ladder and, at each point, gets the same inaccurate answer. Presumably, Vans is following this thread sufficiently to deploy a current, accurate understanding of the engine warranty among their staff...altho' I wonder if a future change in Rotax warranty is going to be well communicated to resellers like Vans.

Larry's point was that the pinch you felt likely came primarily from a worsening USD exchange rate, not the bad answers you were given. (IOW there were two culprits in this little misadventure). Imagine a reversal in the exchange rate, as has happened in the past (dropping by 16% vs. rising that amount, 2011 over 2010) and your delayed purchase might have saved you money. And if that had been the case, your gripe would remain just as valid as Larry's observation: a future purchase of an (EU-built) engine, done with USD's, could continue to present painful surprises to those of us who are following behind you.

Jack
 
No Rotax, Viking is Here

I guess this was just the final straw that broke the proverbial camels back. I am not saying that it is the right choice for everyone, but I ordered my Viking engine kit today!
For me, it gets me out of the ELSA "noose" that seemed to thwart me putting my ideas in play until after the inspection, or giving up on them. I will probably order my Skyview tomorrow for instance, no more waiting for that. For me fuel injection and what I consider a far more refined and proven engine was a big plus, and the $13,000 plus savings with 10% more HP was not bad either.
 
Viking Power

Don, great to hear that you are going with the Viking engine. I will probably go that route also. I believe it is a superior engine with less complex installation, along with much easier and less costly maintenance.
 
Don, it will be interesting - and also educational - for us to follow your kitlog as you get to that portion of your build. I've seen Viking's own RV-12 build (Sebring this past January) but haven't run across a VAF member who's building one and posting here. Looks like you just became a pathfinder... Good luck to you.

Jack
 
There are "several hundred hours" total on the engine in flight, including some fairly long distance flights. Jan can answer that question better than I, he has been flying a Zenith, but is selling it and replacing it with an RV12! I think this weekend he is flying from Florida up to Mexico MO for the Zenith bash there. It seems many of the conversions are actually replacing an installed Rotax with the Viking. The first 12 to be flying with a Viking is being done by a member of this forum in fact, it should be at Oshkosh if he can get it done, you can see his progress on the Viking web site, just click on RV12 tab. This engine is built from Honda Fit, Honda marine engines, and Honda Racing. Not like taking a slow reving engine from a car and calling it an airplane engine. I expect some teething problems being one of the very first, but I can live with that in exchange for the final result.
Check it out here: http://www.vikingaircraftengines.com/
 
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DonFromTX said:
There are "several hundred hours" total on the engine in flight, including some fairly long distance flights. Jan can answer that question better than I, he has been flying a Zenith, but is selling it and replacing it with an RV12! I think this weekend he is flying from Florida up to Mexico MO for the Zenith bash there. It seems many of the conversions are actually replacing an installed Rotax with the Viking. The first 12 to be flying with a Viking is being done by a member of this forum in fact, it should be at Oshkosh if he can get it done, you can see his progress on the Viking web site, just click on RV12 tab. This engine is built from Honda Fit, Honda marine engines, and Honda Racing. Not like taking a slow reving engine from a car and calling it an airplane engine. I expect some teething problems being one of the very first, but I can live with that in exchange for the final result.
Check it out here: http://www.vikingaircraftengines.com/
Click to expand...

Hi Don,

I admire your spirit on this, Jan is an interesting fellow and was at the EAA chapter 288 meeting as the featured speaker. It does look like a good engine for the RV-12.

It will be interesting to see how many more hours you spend integrating the new engine into the RV-12 systems. Keep in mind when you purchase your avionics that Van's has locked many functions and settings in the Dynon 180 so that it matches the Rotax engine, I would expect the same or similar issues with the Skyview when it happens, for people building ELSA this is a big benefit but it may cause some additional work hours finding a way to get it unlocked and then sorting out the correct setup for the new engine.

From Jan's talk it does not sound like they are ready to sell a firewall forward kit with the same level of step by step plans and down to the last washer kit completeness. I wish you well and do please keep us informed as you find and solve the issues inherent in this kind of "beta" environment.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Thanks for the praise! I am buying my Skyview direct from Aircraft Spruce, and do expect to have to spend some time setting it to the RV12 and Viking, but don't see any great difficulties there. I have the AP servos already installed, they will be simple, a bit of rewiring and replumbing the fuel system are in order as well, all pretty simple stuff actually..
 
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