LAMPSguy

LAMPSguy

Well Known Member
First off, I CAN use Google, HAVE used the search function, KNOW that I can't budget for this, but please read anyway and give feedback to my question:D

I am in the Navy, still have 5 years of hard operational flying (REALLY no time to build) so I am really cutting costs and corners to save for the coming project.

How does the following sound as far as estimation goes...have used all above mentioned resources to try to get close to accurate figures. I have rounded, added shipping, etc.

RV-8 Slow build:
Kit - $22,000
Options - $1000
New 200/210 HP engine from Lycoming $40,000
Prop C/S $12,000
Tools/shop $5,000
Random extras $10,000
____________________
$90,000


Avionics (I know prices/capabilities change, but assume that ABOUT the same style of stuff will be available for about the same amount)

G3X 2 screen $13,500
GTN-650 $10,300
GTX-32 $2,500
GMA-35 $3,000
L3 Trilogy $12,000
_______________________
$52,000


TOTAL $142,000 * 1.3 overbudget factor = $185,000


Am I WAY off base? If I were to be able to plan for this (not necessarily GET that amount, but plan for it) Will I be close? Obviously I'm looking for a very well equipped, IFR time machine.

Thanks
 
Wow, $185K....

I'll put a stake in the ground: if you budget $185K for an RV you'll come in under budget unless you farm out all the work. But you did say slow build so it looks like you are going to do it yourself.
Looking at your dream sheet I don't know why you didn't go with the QB which is a fairly cheap option.
You can anticipate a lot of folks replying that they did theirs for a **** of a lot less and they have really well equiped aircraft. I just sent mine RV8 to the paint shop and have a full-tilt-boogie engine, prop and avionics and my total cost will be way less then $185K.
Best of luck to you.
Don
 
RV8 Cost

you can build an RV10 with glass for 185k. I have built 2 RV8's with decent avionics and both were QB's. Your engine and prop estimates are very high vs. a ECI O360 and hartzell CS prop. A dynon glass panel is pretty resonable. Plan on 100k-120k.

My 2 cents makes it $99,999.98-$119,999.98

Pat
 
I think you can knock $10K off the pre-1.3 over budget price.

XIO-360-A1B6 RT $36.3K (Brand new via Van's) (bought with the prop, expect a $1000 discount).
Hartzel C2YR-1BFP/F7497 $6780
You can knock off 3K if you go for a Garmin 430W
The L3: Wait till Osh, TruTrak is going to offer a similar product for $1500. for half the price of the L3, you can also add an auto-pilot with servos.
I didn't see the FWF kit listed, expect 6K for constant speed.
The IO fuel pump always is a surprise, ~$650.
Don't forget the paint: $8500 if done professionally.

either way, $185K will definitely cover a dream machine.
 
I agree that you're probably somewhat overbudgeted but things like sales tax and shipping are often overlooked when considering cost-to-build.... I'd bet you'll come in under $150k.
 
I think if your conservative and do all of your own work you should be able to build one very nice airplane for 100K. Its also not a bad idea to estimate high, that way anything you save down the road is a bonus. I am finishing a rocket and have quite a bit less in it and it is full IFR with Advanced Glass. I think it will be a very nice airplane when finished. Good luck on your quest.
Ryan
 
200/210 HP ?

I haven't heard of the bug advantage of the 200 HP vs. 180HP.

After flexing my 8 with a 180hp I am not thinking I am missing the 20hp!

Other friends have juiced up their 180hp engine to 190-195. That may be the cheaper way to go and not sacrifice much....matter of fact, you might just have a better CG.

Last, my guess is by the time you get to build it your avionics will be much different.

I'm thinking $125k-145k for what you describe .
 
Overbudget

Well, those are the comments I am looking for. It seems pretty hard to get realistic estimates (MSRP, etc). I figured those who have built and seen themselves go over/under would be the best to ask.

I do find that for ME a 1.3 factor holds pretty true for all my do-it-yourself projects...although that doesn't cover my lust for new tools that I "need" to finish the job!

I do have my wife "tool-trained" though for great stocking stuffers...try this one next Christmas:

$10 max ($20 if its made in USA)
Available in the hand tool section in any tool store
She can't have ANY idea what it is without help!

You will be amazed and happy with what you get!
 
One USN-related budget thought, Nick: Where do you anticipate that last tour being, and can you & your bride project where you'll want to be located post-retirement? Depending on those two 'guesstimates', a project you start building during your last tour might need to be moved to your post-retirement location, and that too will have a cost implication.

Jack
 
No idea!

No, my wife and I have NO IDEA where we will be nor where we want to end up. No kids and no plans for them. We enjoy the semi-nomadic nature for now. Have a few ideas but nothing concrete. I am hoping/planning on a shore tour for my last one. Hopefully Navy will remain agreeable for a last tour where WE want! I plan on building as soon as I see the ability to have some consistency, don't want to start then go away for six months! She is actually very supportive of me taking enough time immediately following retirement to support me financially while I build full time! I fly a lot for work but have not MADE time yet to take her flying:eek::confused::mad::(
 
I think your $5K tools estimate is high. I almost have my RV7 rudder complete and I have about $4.5K into the project total. That includes the empennage and my tools. I didn't buy a complete tool set, but I have picked and choosed the tools that I wanted or needed. I like to have the right tool for the job though. I now have mulitple squeezers including a pneumatic one. I did already have some of the other tools that you may want like a bench drill press and a compressor. Still I would say you are about $1K high.
 
I'm also AD USN, building an RV-7. It can be done!

You're really budgeting for the moon man... there is an article on Vans FB page about a budget -8 that was completed in $45K. Pick up as much as you can second hand. Guys are always selling tools on here, Craigslist is a great place for things like compressors, band saws, grinders, etc. Buy a used overhauled engine, plumb your avionics for your mission. Rather than G3X (which I ordered) maybe go with an experimental supplier like Dynon or GRT? Do you REALLY need a complete top of the line avionics stack? Do you really need a 210 HP motor with a top of the line prop? If yes, then go for it. But you can have a fun, solid, IFR X-C and aerobatic toy for much MUCH less than you're budgeting.

You can also piecemeal your kit from others that are selling on here. Start off with someone's emp kit, then find some wings, then a fuselage, etc. You don't have to go top shelf, brand new on everything. You can have just as nice of a plane either way, the finished product is in your hands, not what you start with.

BTW, you flying wieners up at Whiting or are you an HT dude? Take your wife flying too... it'll keep her motivated for the project. Mine goes with my boss in his RV-6. Pensacola has a great Navy flying club at PNS.
 
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On Sig's point regarding 210 HP in the engine.

Have you flown an RV yet? When I started out I wanted monster power with every once of horses I could afford! I was looking at 210 with this and that to gain more.

Then I jumped in my buddies RV7 with 2 190lbs guys and full to collar fuel. We rocketed off the runway and climbed like a home sick angels! This was on a 180 lyco and catto FP 2 blade.

I've flown for 20 years and like to think if it's on a ramp somwhere, I probably have some time in it. With an RV, we need to remove the correlation of HP equaling better. I was shocked at what the RV is capable of on 180hp.

While you build, views and opinions will change. I state that as my own experience :eek:
 
Had to add my two cents

My approach:

Kit 22,000
Engine 27,000 (180HP)
C/S Prop 6,700
Tools 2,500 (Avery kit)
Panel 5,000 (dynon flightdek 180, Used KT 76, Icom 210) basic
LED lights 1,000

Total 64,200...toss in 4,000 for contingency...less than 70K
 
A few thoughts for you

First, as your estimates for most items are pretty conservative already, and except to cover items you missed, I do not think you need the x 1.3 factor. Its a bad multiplier because the more detailed and accurate your estimate gets, which raises the price, you keep scaling it up by 1.3, whereas in reality, the more accurate your estimates and the more detail you include, the LESS you need to provide as contingency. I would just get good estimates for everything and drop the contingency.

For example, your C/S prop is WAY too high - a WW 200RV is only $8.6K now. Hartzell is about $6.7K

No way are you going to spend $5k on tools! I'm sure I spent less than $1K on tools.(I made my own C-frame) Just price out a C-frame, a pneumatic squeezer, a hand squeezer, and a 3x gun. that will be the lion's share of it. Maybe $1.5K

The significant price items you forgot in your initial estimate are paint and upholstery. The $10K of 'random extras' you include is almost enough (figure $2k for uphostery and paint depends on how fancy you get, but average is probably around $8K) but if you want a really fancy show-grade paint job, better budget for that. there was a thread a while back asking what people spend on paint jobs.

Here is a benchmark for you from my balance sheet:
RV-8 Quickbuild, bought June 2007 for $23K, not including finish kit and FWF
rebuilt IO-360-A1A (200 hp) $17K ( I got a great deal!)
Finish kit and FWF $8.5K
Whirl Wind Prop $8.5K
VFR panel with avionics bought used $8.5K (GTX-320, SL-40, PM-1000, GPS-396, Dynon EMS D-120, analog ASI, Alt, VSI, g's)
Paint $6.5K
Upholstery $2K
lights,strobes,electrical $1K
Shipping $1.5K

Total $76.5K

I think I can upgrade to IFR using GNs-430, G3X for $23K, bringing the total to under $100K. - half your budget. So the previous poster that thought you could build two for your estimate is almost right!
 
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RV8 cost

Ok, I decided to jump back in. I have built two RV8's. The first one had a 200 HP IO360. The second had a 180HP ECI 0360. You will not miss the 20hp at all. The reduced weight up front with the 180 HP in the 8 is a positive. If you want to fly vs. build buy the QB. The value is excellent. Although not required buying all the kit at once will save time. Building the kit in your garage vs. the airport will also save time and keep the spouse happy vs. spending all your free time at the airport.

Although I appreciate the 1.3 rule building a vans aircraft from a cost standpoint is straight forward and the additional 30% is not required. Here is what building a high end QB RV8 will cost.

32000 QB
22000 ECI 180 HP guess
16000 High end Panel
6800 Prop
3000 Tools
6000 Paint
500 Aircraft Spruce Misc

Total $ 86,300.00

Thats it, thats all

Of course an 8 can be built for much less with a mid time engine and basic panel and a long build kit.
 
Buy one already built

You can find all kinds of flying RV8's for much less than what you think it will cost to build. I have purchased 3 flying RV's and while flying put in upgrades at my leisure. The best of all worlds. Figure at least 1-3 years of flying instead of looking up in the air dreaming. Just a thought.
 
a price estimate for what? a plane, or a 'lifestyle'?

this is pretty funny.
someone's wife needs to get on here with the real cost!
...I've heard of the river, but never seen so much deNIAL in one place!

oh, I'm not calling anyone a liar, I'm sure all these planes were 'built' for $45k or $85 or whatever.
what I want to point out is, the OTHER half of the builders have a garage full of tools and parts, (almost enough to build another plane!?) :)
....you guys know what I mean.
- you got a real deal on a first aid kit 'for the plane'. ....then found it wouldn't fit behind the seat, so now it hangs on the wall, and you bought ANOTHER one for the plane.
Ka-ching!...funny how the one on the wall doesn't appear in the 'total build price' for the plane, 'cause, hey, it's not permanantly attached, right?
I bought a whiskey compass, then changed to a vertical card compass, and sold the other one on VAF. ( at a slight loss, less shipping etc.)
ka-ching.
bought those headsets at the big show, then found they wouldn't connect to my cel phone, so got another one for the pilot.
ka-ching.
got a real deal on that used prop. hung it on the wall. money in the bank, eh?
...then decided I really wanted a 180 hp, so bought a new c/s.
ka-ching.
If i bought a little trailer, I could pickup the kit myself. and then take the plane to the field later. and it would be Soooo handy for moving stuff.
ka-ching.

etc etc. NONE of this stuff ends up in the box of bills 'for the plane' do they?
:)
hey I'm a guy, I love having shiny stuff. I have tools no-one else even knows how to pronounce.

just a little reality check!
 
Pat Stewart said:
I have built two RV8's. The first one had a 200 HP IO360. The second had a 180HP ECI 0360. You will not miss the 20hp at all. The reduced weight up front with the 180 HP in the 8 is a positive.
Click to expand...

What he said.

The RV8 in my avatar has the ECI IO-360 (w/ extras like cold air induction, ECI fuel inj, 9.2:1 CR, etc) from America's Aircraft Engines in Tulsa, which dyno'ed at 192hp @ 2700rpm. Hartzel BA CS prop and it climbs like a rocketship and is remarkably fast in level cruise. This RV-8 has the perfect amount of weight on the nose with this powerplant combo.
 
Exactly

A nose heavy RV-8 is NOT what you want. The 180 with a Hartzel works really well. (Put the battery in the back).



Neal@F14 said:
What he said.

The RV8 in my avatar has the ECI IO-360 (w/ extras like cold air induction, ECI fuel inj, 9.2:1 CR, etc) from America's Aircraft Engines in Tulsa, which dyno'ed at 192hp @ 2700rpm. Hartzel BA CS prop and it climbs like a rocketship and is remarkably fast in level cruise. This RV-8 has the perfect amount of weight on the nose with this powerplant combo.
Click to expand...
 
Reality

flyboy1963 said:
this is pretty funny.
someone's wife needs to get on here with the real cost! <snip> Just a little reality check!
Click to expand...

Been watching this thread with interest myself. One factor that is carefully ignored is what it is going to cost to own the airplane after it is flying. I live in a "high rent" area when it comes to hangars, but in a little under 10 years my cost of ownership, hangar, insurance, maintenance, and fuel will exceed the initial cost of the airplane. Not complaining mind you, just as Perry said, "A little reality check." But hey, that makes my RV8 worth $175K, right? :rolleyes:

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
More reality

In my estimate I did not include things such as the hanger I bought...heck it houses two other planes that are costing money I did not include too...and the hanger is the only thing I have ever bought associated with flying that has actually appreciated in value and it's bolted to the ground.

Guess what, it all boils down the the difference between men and boys is the price of thier toys...

If money were the real issue I would have given up women, drinking, hunting fishing, sailing...well you get the drift...

building a plane is just to dam much fun to put a price on it...
 
Close enough

I was just really trying to get a close idea to "plan". I really know I will not be able to start building for years, so plan on renting with as little flying as I do (just took a warrior 161 up, first time since 2003). These planes fly a bit different from helicopters!!

Just want to keep putting money away, keep enticing the wife to keep working, and when I can retire from the navy, will take enough time to build full time until it's done (she loves this idea!!).

I figure I can work out a rough budget, maybe get enough to at least pay for the kit and a little other stuff and only have to finance half of the project (if I am lucky). Economy has nowhere to go but up (or we learn Chinese).
 
Get the wife involved

I must say from my own experience it is critical to get the wife on board for the project. Not only will you need her support in the expenditures but it's really great if you can get her to help in the construction. Not to be sexist but my experience has been that they make the best riveters you will ever see. The only dings I have on my project so far and when I had male friends help...the little lady has 100% success rate for rivets so far...and that's a lot of rivets...
 
Real projects

I haven't finished, and I am not speaking from experience of having built 38 planes but....

I had a look at that list and looks like you want to do a good job.

I think you are right on the money.

I think the 1.3 x is correct too. No one produces a list like that because they want to go cheap. Which means you will want to improve it as time goes on.

Its not that the aircraft needs to cost that much, its that your wanting to do a good job and those numbers are list price summations.

Lets face it... the price is the price. Your not going to get it cheaper and you know how to add up.

Most people pretend it is less expensive so they don't destroy the experience of owning the plane. If I told you that owning an $85k plane, with running costs and ALL the extras, for 10 years, if you had done the same thing with well positioned investment then you would have EARNED $500k over the period of time, that puts you about $700k behind where you could have been.

Who wants to look at their RV8 and say "Yep that little baby cost me $700k :)"

Its better to say she was no more expensive than a luxury car. It just makes you feel btter about it.
 
RV-8A Cost

Random comments from my recent -8A QB build experience (first flight Apr 2011):
1. 200 hp vs 180 hp (CS prop) - I went with 180; didn't think the added weight and cost were worth it. Still don't - 180 hp drives my 1122 Lb bird just fine. Purchased new from Aerosport - a great company.
2. I didn't do enough analysis of the real mission requirements and ended up over-killing the avionics. You can very easily buy much more capability than you will EVER need. You may think you need redundant IFR capability - and can equip the plane to offer such; however, you can't equip an RV-8 to be happy in ice. How much hard IFR are you going to do? Or as Dave Kerzy, Lockheed test pilot and RV builder once told me - The money spent on a rarely used avionics box will pay for a lot of hotel rooms when the weather turns to ****.
3. My panel: single AFS 3500 with AOA. (upgraded to 4500) with Garmin 496 input. Absolutely amazing capability. Usually fly in the 3-screen page mode: EFIS, Engine Monitor and Map. Works fine - except I don't have the redundancy of the second screen. Even though I'm a Navy carrier guy, haven't found much use for the AOA. Newer Garmins offer bigger screens
4. TruTrak ADI II autopilot. Good attitude backup. Again, amazing capability. Latest AFS/TruTrak combo has coupled approaches - but I'd rather hand-fly the approach (carryover from my thousands of hrs. in the A-4: no stinkin' autopilot and impossible to trim for very long. I also underestimated how much I'd get bounced around in rough air. Autopilot really helps.
5. GTX-327. Big sky little airplane mentality trumped the cost of expensive traffic alerts.
6. PMA7000B - purchased 4 years ago. PMA has a lot more to offer these days.
7. SL-30 Nav/Com and ICom backup. Works fine.
8. GTX-50 multi-purpose timer, g-meter, voltmeter. Proved invaluable in timing flight test maneuvers.
9. Backup altimeter, VSI and airspeed. Purchased when EFIS reliability was somewhat unknown. Don't need if you insist on dual screens.
10. No fancy interior stuff; fighter cockpit sparse. Somewhat noisy.
11. Singe mag; single Lightspeed. I had early questions about P-mag reliability. Problems seem to have disappeared. Probably go with dual P-mags now.
12. Separate G-meter. Just because. (She likes g's and being upside down.)
13. Upholstry from Flightline Interiors.
14. Aeroelectric Z13/8 architecture with 40 amp alternator and SD-8.

Including paint (currently at GLO) and tools, total cost will be around $125K.
 
185K seems very high to me. You might want to consider watching for RV-8's for sale. Outstanding RV-8's can be had for around 100K. I saw a couple of good ones for 80K. If you put 185K into the aircraft unless there is a major shift in the used aircraft market it will only be worth about 100k.
None of this however factors in the pride in building your own aircraft and knowing that everything is exactly as you might want it.

George
 
Ongoing thanks

My assumption was that after a good search, if I had a question then others must also. Thanks for the ongoing thoughts. Obviously I am in no hurry and my...uhhh..."retentive" nature has me "planning" many years out. All the comments have been helpful. My goal is to keep refining my mission and its requirements so I can much less anxiously pull the trigger in the future.

Most of my instrument time has been in TACAN only navy helicopters, so I guess if I was willing to repeatedly go into bad WX, with only a TACAN(well, radar helps the confidence!), build and repaired by the lowest bidder, maybe I COULD forego some of the redundancies.

As a self proclaimed aviation nerd and aero engineer I do have some goals that are not practical but ohh so sexy that I want to do just to be able to do it. Maybe after I get one RV-8 under my belt someone will work with me on the 82 ala twin mustang...seriously, I want to do it!
 
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