[TomVal]

I am starting to open the aerobatic window on my -8. I have flown aerobatics in the past, both in the military and as a civilian. I am about seven years out of practice and have begun the process of chair flying my manuevers. I have a fixed pitch prop so my manuevers will require a bit more throttle management.

I have started with a 5500 AGL floor to give myself plenty of time to recover from my mistakes and if I really confuse myself to give me time to just pull the throttle to idle, let go of everything, and give the aircraft a chance to recover itself.

My poll question above assumes that you are proficient and familar with the aerobatic characterists of your RV. At what altitude AGL is your pratice aerobatic floor?

Thanks,

 

[Toobuilder]

Take this with a grain of salt (consider the source) but in my opinion, a "floor" of 5500 feet AGL is quite conservative. Mine is lower than that, and I'll just leave it at that.

 

[penguin]

Once you become familiar with your airplane you will get to know that there is plenty of warning when you may be headed for the dark side, and that when you get there its fairly benign if you unload and throttle back. First of all figure out what straight and level throttle setting will give you red line at Vne, for me its 2300rpm. Now you can aerobat at fixed throttle without overspeeding while learning figures.

By all means start high - why not? But once you are confident in your abilities your base height can come down to whatever you are comfortable with.

Pete

 

[Chris Hill]

Have you G tested it? Have you done power on/off stalls and accelerated stalls? I only ask because I yank and bank my 8 all the time and sometimes I ask a little much of it, so I will on rare occaission get about 1/4 turn spin entry that immediately goes away with releasing back pressure (solo weight and CG). Point being you could wind up in an unusual attitude situation

The RVs climb so well that an extra 2k altitude insurance costs about 69 seconds of climbing...for initial aerobatics in the RV, I'd recommend 5500 AGL. I wouldnt mandate it, but it certainly wont hurt.

At 6k and 24/25 with constant speed prop, every maneuver you do is going to be energy gaining if you dont work the throttle, so might as well climb a little.

Once you feel like a rockstar, 1500 AGL is legal and, provided youre doing gentlemans aero, is plenty of space to do anything with an inital up pull.

my 2 cents...

 

[humptybump]

"a long time ago, in a land far far away ..."

My aerobatic instructor started our first lesson at 4,500'. We never started a maneuver below 3,500'. The only maneuver that deliberately took us below 3,000' was spin endorcement training.

In all of this, the key for me is "aerobatic instructor".

 

[sandifer]

I would say that unless you're simply curious, don't be too concerned with what others' minimums are. This has to be an individual choice. There's such a wide ranging continuum of experience, skill, comfort, risk tolerance, and risk management techniques that poll results such as this would be in the category of trivia. But I will say that if you're going to get any meaningful critiquing from the ground, you're going to need to be comfortable and competent in the 1500-2500'. range, which is what you'd fly at a contest. The ceiling of an aerobatic competition box is 3500' AGL, and it's hard to critique at the top of the box. Again, this is just a different point of reference for folks who may be curious about this aspect of aerobatics. This a rather safe altitude for competent Sportsman-level (RV-type acro) pilots. This is evidenced by the fact that there has never been a fatality during an IAC competition flight in the U.S. since the inception of the organization in 1970.

A note about surface-level airshow aerobatics - many folks think performers who do surface-level maneuvers are giving themselves zero margin, and that it's skill and risk tolerance alone that provides for this. Yes, there's a good degree of skill, and an airshow pilot may start and finish a loop at the surface, but part of the job of an airshow pilot is to make it look like there's no margin. You will never see an airshow pilot do a perfectly round loop from the surface (or one period, really). It doesn't matter how confident and skilled you are, this just isn't done. Too dangerous. So what they do is fly a 'display loop', which is not round, and flies the backside profile such that they can start shallowing their angle much higher than if a real round loop was done. They then fly down to the surface such that a very low hard pull is not required. Airshow pilots always perform this type of pullout from downlines at low-altitude and they will select maneuvers and design their routine around the ability to do this.

Back to the 1500' world most of us live in - once you're truly proficient, a "blown" maneuver is simply one that is not perfect rather than one that causes you to depart controlled flight and lose excessive altitude. In this context, a 'blown' maneuver may loose 100 ft. rather than 1000' ft. At this level, altitude below you may be more to give you time to deal with mechanical problems (or bail out because of them) than to recover a "blown" maneuver.

In the airshow world, a large majority of the modern fatalities are associated with low-level gyroscopic, spin, and snap roll maneuvers. Some remained in control of the airplane the whole time, but recovered too low to pull out - Jim Leroy and Nancy Lynn. Bryan Jensen died in 'The Beast' a few months ago as a result of a gyroscopic tumble that decayed into an un-planned inverted spin. It seems he became confused with the nature and direction of the accidental spin, and did not apply the correct recovery inputs in time. He spun all the way to the ground. In this case, he was too low to invoke emergency spin recovery (neutral controls) once he realized his deliberate (but incorrect) spin recovery inputs were not effective.

One last point, all the altitude in the world will not help you if you are undertrained and unprepared to respond to a situation that requires emergency recovery. Some folks have entered inverted spins when first learning hammerheads. It's unlikely you'd even realize you're spinning inverted if your first one is accidental. Some pilots have spun to the ground holding what they thought were the correct ant-spin inputs. Problem was, they were in the wrong type of spin for the inputs they were making. In a true emergency spin recovery situation, most aerobatic airplanes do not even require you to figure out the situation beyond the fact that you're no longer in control. If you spin accidentally, and are confused by what's now happening (or why it's not stopping) it can be best to not try to figure out which rudder to push and whether to bring the stick forward or aft. Simply pulling power off and visually neutralizing both the stick and rudder will recover most types. It works every time in a Pitts. I never specifically tried this in the RV, but I'd imagine it would work for all types of spins in RVs.

But for this to work correctly, you have to admit right away that you're out of control. You're out of control the first time the plane does something you did not expect it to. So if you're competent with spins, go up and try this method. It could save your life one day. Of course you need enough altitude to let it work for you. But again, emergency spin recovery methods need to be tested and confirmed for each specific type of airplane to be relied upon 100%. Some planes may have a quirk in a specific spin mode that requires a specific deliberate action. While this would be good to know about ahead of time, in a life-threatening low-altitude situation where you're confused and not effecting recovery, your best chance is to pull power, neutralize everything, and wait.

 

[mv031161]

Eric...as always hitting tne nail in the head everytime! Well written and well explained. As for the emergency recovery procedure in spins, we may want to ask Ron Shreck here at VAF. He was one of my participants at the last spin and emergency procedure clinic w/Bill Finnagin and we made a believer out of him!

As for the floor 1,500 agl should be the absolute minimun for anyone venturing into aerobatics and until either getting a low flight waiver drom the FAA or competing at the higher IAC class!

One last thing: Dago, come join us. We have aerobatic practice days where you can benefit from others experiences and expertise. We have competitions in NC and VA and practice as well in KLKR in SC. We are looking for RV,s to come and have fun! Pm me if interested. We are part of EAA/IAC. We would love to take you under our wings and walk you through it....

 

[Kahuna]

It has been touched on but Ill be more direct about it.
Practice aerobatics to accomplish what?
If its to have fun, then any altitude will do.

If its to become more proficient as a pilot, at some point you will have to get low enough to fly lines. Either in a box over an airport, or power lines, or a straight line of a field or road somewhere, then you will need to be low enough to know what your inputs are doing to cause you to be off lines. ~2k' deck is what you will need.

And if its to get good at it, you will need to progress lower to ~1000' in order to really see what your inputs are doing measured in feet with someone critiquing from the ground.

The lower you go, the more obvious it is what your inputs are doing causing you to be off. And the lower you go, the more proficient a pilot you will become as your will become one with your plane where inputs and adjustments you make can be readily seen from ground references your looking at.

Most anyone can flip an RV around the sky and not die and have fun doing it. But not anyone can put their airplane exactly where they want it, when they want it. Ron Schreck as mentioned is a great resource. An ICAS competitor, and holds a surface level air show formation waiver that can only be had from demonstrating in front of professionals that he can be precise and aerobatic to the dirt.

Hope this helps.

 

[ronschreck]

Ditto everything Eric said...and

Eric,

Excellent post. Regarding the out-of-control recovery for an RV. Four steps will recover from any type of spin or departure situation.

1. Throttle - idle
2. FORCE controls to neutral
3. Wait for 100 knots
4. Recover from the dive

I emphasize "FORCE" the controls to neutral in the second step because I have found that when my RV is in a developed spin (which may take four or five turns) the stick will stay firmly in my lap (full aft) when released. It takes concerted effort to FORCE the stick to the neutral position.

This simple 4-step procedure works in every case. While you may have a quicker recovery if you put full rudder opposite the spin, it is sometimes difficult to determine which way you are spinning. More than one experienced aerobatic pilot has held the wrong rudder all the way to the ground! This procedure works no matter what direction you are spinning or whether you are upright or inverted.

I can't take credit for this. I took spin training from Bill Finnegan in his Pitts S2-C a few years ago. I applied the procedure to my RV and found it to be very effective in upright and inverted spins with recovery in the neighborhood of 900 to 1200 feet.

Applying that experience to the question at hand; I would say that 1500 feet is the minimum altitude that I would be comfortable when trying an unfamiliar maneuver that I think has any chance in degrading into uncontrolled flight if I blow it. I do have a SAC card with a surface waiver, however as Eric pointed out, all of our maneuvers are designed to be performed well above the surface and we only approach the surface with plenty of speed and little G-loading on the aircraft.

An observer on the ground is very helpful. We videotape all of our performances and many of our practice sessions and we often critique aerobatic maneuvers via a hand-held radio. Maneuvers done at 4000 feet cannot be judged from the ground.

If you are not comfortable doing aerobatics at 1500 feet, by all means go higher! I would suggest to anyone starting out that you get professional instruction first! You can find your comfort zone safely with an instructor on board.

 

[mv031161]

Ron. You said recovered at 900 to 1200 agl....at what altitude did you start the out of control emergency procedure that ended in those altitudes in your RV8?

To all...please take note of the procedures and do follow them exactly after the nano second you cant any longer make your aircraft do what you want...(out of control) you need to be a believer if it is to work fo you! Everytime 100% guarantee, if you use this emergency recovery technique, you will end up upright in a 45 degree nose down waiting to hit 100 mph before turning to flight level.

As Ron said...in your RV you must force the stick to Neutral...


Please say it outloud

THROTTLE TO IDDLE
FORCE ALL CONTROLS TO NEUTRAL
WAIT FOR 100 MPH
RETURN TO FLIGHT LEVEL

 

[Travelair]

Darwin award

Not specifically related to aerobatic floor...

I was IFR inbound to Orlando a few days ago between layers at 6000. Approach called a no transponder target 12 o'clock 1 mile. I spotted the RV doing aerobatics through my altitude on the airway.

Not sure what the answer is here. IFR arrival routes are not published on the VFR charts, although I was still on an airway segment. Transponder on and talking to ATC seems like a good idea though, particularly in busy area like Orlando.

 

[N355DW]

Ron. You said recovered at 900 to 1200 agl....at what altitude did you start the out of control emergency procedure that ended in those altitudes in your RV8?

To all...please take note of the procedures and do follow them exactly after the nano second you cant any longer make your aircraft do what you want...(out of control) you need to be a believer if it is to work fo you! Everytime 100% guarantee, if you use this emergency recovery technique, you will end up upright in a 45 degree nose down waiting to hit 100 mph before turning to flight level.

As Ron said...in your RV you must force the stick to Neutral...


Please say it outloud

THROTTLE TO IDDLE
FORCE ALL CONTROLS TO NEUTRAL
WAIT FOR 100 MPH
RETURN TO FLIGHT LEVEL

I'm just guessing here, but I think Ron meant it took 900 to 1200 ft to recover from a spin of any type once those inputs were applied. Not that he recovered at those altitudes.

I have never flown an RV, but I have a lot of experience in Pitts and Extras, and have instructed off and on in both for many years. Way back when I got my first Pitts S2B, I had the instructor take me up to 7000' AGL and put me into spins of every configuration. I would close my eyes as he did this so I would be pretty well disorientated when he would tell me to recover. Believe me your head can get pretty messed up from an accelerated flat spin as to which way you are going, and sometimes whether you are upright or inverted. The more experience with this, the easier it gets, but it's still easy to spin your own "gyros" in a really wrapped up spin, so the "power off, stick to neutral method is very important to know.

I would add an explanation for why it's better to use the controls to neutral inputs. But first a disclaimer : Please Get instruction on how easy it is in a Pitts to apply positive anti-spin inputs and go into a crossover spin. So for example, in a stick back (upright) right rudder spin, active anti-spin inputs would be to first apply left rudder, followed by forward stick once the rotation stops. What some people do instead, usually because they are stressed by this unusual attitude, is to simultaneously apply full forward stick and left rudder. What this can do - not every time but often enough - is put you into an inverted spin to the left. Now this is confusing because it seems as if the direction of rotation has not changed at all, (and it hasn't, although now you will feel yourself coming out of your seat because your are in an inverted spin, and your nose position will have changed so that the ground directly below you is now visible through your canopy, instead of underneath your nose - this is difficult to describe, much easier to show with a model).

So you think you have done everything right, and you are still spinning! This situation has killed far to many people, some of whom I have known personally.

But if you remember :

1. Pull the power to idle
2. stick and rudder to neutral
3. airspeed past 100, pull out of the dive

this will work for any kind of spin, in most planes. I can't say for RV's but others can. It takes a little longer than positive anti-spin inputs, and if you are really wrapped up in an accelerated flat spin beyond say, four turns, it may take an additional 1-2 turns to recover, so be prepared for that. That's why you want some extra altitude. You will know when you feel comfortable to lower your floor, no one else should tell you.

I was a member of the Advanced team back in 96-97, I flew Unlimited for for a couple of years back then, and did some airshows for one year. I never liked getting below 500' so I quit the airshows pretty quickly. I do believe Eric is correct in that many airshow accidents these days are the result of low level tumbles. Flip Smith comes to mind, and Nancy, and there are others, too many to name. But even with very good planning and expert stickmanship (is this a word?) there are times in most of the professional routines I have seen, that a power failure would be a very bad thing. Altitude is your friend. I have lost more than several close friends and well over thirty acquaintances since I started competing in 1993. A little more altitude would have saved nearly all of them.

My Extra 300L was extremely difficult to teach crossovers as it's too nose heavy, and wants to recover from any spin at the first chance it gets, but an S2B does them very well. Finagan is a great instructor and a fun guy. Tell him Wack sent you!

Again, I can't say as to the specifics of an RV as too how easy it might be to do a crossover spin in one, but I urge you all to try it in a Pitts. I will look forward to exploring this when I get my 7 done, and I enjoy reading those experienced with RV's, so keep it coming!

 

[N355DW]

Floor for chute use

I forgot to add - another important aerobatic floor is that where you will abandon the aircraft and use your chute. A friend of mine was killed when he and a friend jumped from what seemed to be an unrecoverable spin in an S2B - but too late. The chutes were found over their bodies partially opened. He was an airline pilot with many hours of experience.

SO - always have a floor established in your own mind, where, if the airplane is not under your control, you will abandon it. When I was teaching recovery from the more advanced spins we would start at 7500' agl, and before takeoff I would brief a floor of 3000' - if the plane was not under control by then it was time to leave. Flat spins, especially with power, don't eat up too much altitude, so we could really get it wrapped up into a six or seven turn spin and usually recover in 2500' or less most of the time.

You should have that floor firmly in mind when you fly aerobatics, as well as practice how you would actually leave the airplane, by that I mean go through the motions while on the ground - things like opening and jettisoning the canopy, removing headsets and seatbelts, pulling the rip cord when clear of the plane and going into a spread eagle pattern (taking a jump course would be a good idea), that sort of thing. Practice is good!

Apparently, jettisoning the canopy in an RV could be an issue depending on the type, so work that out as well!

Fly safe!

Damon

 

[jrs14855]

IAC

I am going to split this into at least two messages. First the widespread myth that there has never been a fatality at an IAC sanctioned contest. This was a repeated claim by at least one IAC president and is simply untrue. There was one fatality during a contest flight. It involved structural failure and was a Stits Playboy. There have been two fatalities at contests on practice days, the most recent at Borrego involving a Rocket. Apparent control failure, no attempt to leave the aircraft.

 

[Berchmans]

Altitude

Always remember the three most useless things to a pilot....

1. Runway behind you
2. Fuel in the truck
3. Altitude above you

 

[jrs14855]

Spins

No names here. My immediate supervisor was a Unlimited National Champion and several time world team member. Although we talked about a lot of things, he mostly left me on my own and rarely ever offered any advice.
"One day he said-pilot A will be here to fly with you in the Sukhoi. He is a very experienced aerobatic pilot. A world team member, airshow pilot, airline pilot etc. However he is mostly a self taught aerobatic pilot. I have found that most of the self taught pilots from that era don't really know much about spins" How prophetic!!
So the next day I am out doing spins with "A" in the Sukhoi. He said "my airplane will not do a flat spin" I said I think it will and it will be very similar to the Sukhoi. He went home for a few days and returned for some more Sukhoi flying. He said "you're right, my airplane flat spins much like the Sukhoi". I will only say that pilot A's airplane was a monoplane. The point of all this is twofold. One, the self taught pilots of that era were so good, so intuitive, that they rarely, if ever, entered an inadvertent spin. Of course they botched maneuvers but they recovered before the airplane had a chance to spin. This will work in most of the monoplanes 99.9 percent of the time. I am not willing to say it will work 100 percent of the time. For this reason I think the all controls neutral is potentially very dangerous. Also to simply state RV is equally dangerous. I have never spun an RV. It appears from talking with RV6 owners that the 6 with original vertical tail and aft cg has some issues. The safe bet in all cases is full opposite rudder. Neutral aileron-absolutely, or alternatively inspin aileron. neutral elevator- not such a good idea. Works most of the time in some airplanes but not a reliable method. Use as much elevator as it takes to stop the spin. The Pitts S1S with full fuel and a slightly forward cg will recover very nicely with neutral elevator. Move the cg aft a bit and with neutral elevator it will not even slow down.

 

[jrs14855]

spins

I was 17 years old and almost ready for my Private checkride. My instructor was old school. Lots of screaming and pounding on the glareshield. There were hangar flying sessions and impromptu Cub comedy routines. A briefing??-you've got to be kidding. So here we are in the Cub- hot summer day, I am already half sick from the ever present gas fumes. Instructor says-lemme show ya somthin. He banks past 60 degrees, yanks back on the stick and applys full top rudder. As the airplane snaps he yanks off the power and I am experiencing my first spin. Thankfully we landed shortly after. I spent several hours in a recliner in a dark corner of the hangar, trying to decide if I was going to puke. I think I only did the one spin with an instructor. I continued to do spins on my own in a variety of airplanes in the Cub/Champ class. I can't say I ever enjoyed them during that era. I can say one thing for sure. I still thank my instructor for teaching me spins. It has probably saved my life many times.
Fast forward several years. I had several thousand hours, still scared to death of aerobatics, never been upside down or done any acro except spins. Friend George has a new Cassutt racer. He built it to race, but I guess his wife said 'or else" Anyway he decided not to race it and asked me if I wanted to race it. Of course I said yes. There was just one problem. I had to demonstrate rolls to qualify to race. My obsession with racing overcame my fear of hanging upside down by a very thin margin. I spent several weeks teaching myself rolls in the Cassutt, certainly not a good choice for a do it yourself aerobatic trainer. I prevailed, although by a very slim margin. The late great Bill Falck was my evaluator. He expressed his displeasure at my sloppy rolls but let me race. I survived races at Wilson NC and Reno without hurting myself or the airplane. I have two vivid memories all these years later. First is Bill Falck cruising by me, high on the outside with a 30 knot plus overtake. Second, halfway through the first race, deadsticking onto a runway in the middle of the race course after a total engine failure, without disrupting the race in progress.

 

[ronschreck]

Ron. You said recovered at 900 to 1200 agl....at what altitude did you start the out of control emergency procedure that ended in those altitudes in your RV8?

To all...please take note of the procedures and do follow them exactly after the nano second you cant any longer make your aircraft do what you want...(out of control) you need to be a believer if it is to work fo you! Everytime 100% guarantee, if you use this emergency recovery technique, you will end up upright in a 45 degree nose down waiting to hit 100 mph before turning to flight level.

As Ron said...in your RV you must force the stick to Neutral...


Please say it outloud

THROTTLE TO IDDLE
FORCE ALL CONTROLS TO NEUTRAL
WAIT FOR 100 MPH
RETURN TO FLIGHT LEVEL

Mitch,

The recovery takes 900 to 1200 feet of altitude loss. Hopefully you will still be well above the ground when fully recovered. Start HIGH!

 

[mv031161]

Thanks Ron.

To the person writting about the sukhoi inability to flat spin. Yes they can flat spin, only opposite to left turning engines... Procedure is exactly the same but opposite inputs. (RH rudder, stick to back 7 position,power on)

I have a video w bill finnagin on his pitts where i,m doing all the possile spins and emergency recover manuver. He is in the front seat (very unusual since Bill wont let hardly anyone fly from the back) you will see all possile spins there are

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=WKDUr3aPv3U

 

[jrs14855]

spins

I did not say that the Sukhoi would not flat spin. The person I was flying with had a one of a kind monoplane that he said would not flat spin. I showed him flat spins in the SU29 after which he tried it in his airplane and found it worked much the same. I timed Bob Herendeen two different times, 33 turns inverted flat in about 55 seconds.(Pitts S1S modified) Nowhere near the rate of rotation that some people have claimed. I never asked Bob about his starting altitude but would guess it was around 10K AGL. Recovery was around 3K AGL so the descent rate was probably slightly over 7000 ft/minute. Most of the popular aerobatic monoplanes will recover from an upright flat spin with full power left on. The recovery is near instantaneous, around 1/8 turn if one is very agressive with the controls. The full power recovery is the "dirty little secret" that most instructors don't want to talk about. There is some danger involved if the control inputs are not correct, the spin could accelerate. In the SU26 I would do several climbing vertical rolls and as the airspeed decayed start lowering the nose and forcing it into a upright flat spin. On recovery I would count 3 seconds, pull to a full verticle roll hammerhead. The Su29 and Su26 will both tumble from a 45 degree upright climb with back stick. 3 1/2 negative G with the stick all the way back. Took two years to figure out how the Russians were doing that. I had the good fortune to be around Jurgis kairys and Elana Klimovich quite a lot. Never flew with them but learned a lot from watching them practice and talking to them. I still think Jurgis's 17 1/2 turn vertical down snap is the most amazing thing I have ever seen in aerobatics. Starts as a forced accelerated spin at a very slow speed at exits at Vne which is about 272 statute in the SU26.

 

[skybolt31]

There has been a lot of great advice here, I just wanted to say two things very explicitly:

1. Altitude is not a substitute for training
2. Memorizing a 3 step procedure is not a substitute for training

If you are going to compete or want to get critiquing from the ground, you will need to be lower, I compete in Sportsman (not in an RV) and the box floor is 1500, but I try not to go below 2000 to have a little cushion. If you are not competing, I would use 3500 as a floor, more if you like. An RV will climb to altitude quick enough, the only real downside to being higher is that performance will drop off and it is harder to locate the plane in the box. If you are not competing, neither of those things really matters.

I think when people start flying acro, there is a tendency to want to fly lower, after all, the really good acro pilots fly low. Flying low does not mean you are a better pilot, it only means you are a more confident pilot.

 

[N355DW]

No names here. My immediate supervisor was a Unlimited National Champion and several time world team member. Although we talked about a lot of things, he mostly left me on my own and rarely ever offered any advice.
"One day he said-pilot A will be here to fly with you in the Sukhoi. He is a very experienced aerobatic pilot. A world team member, airshow pilot, airline pilot etc. However he is mostly a self taught aerobatic pilot. I have found that most of the self taught pilots from that era don't really know much about spins" How prophetic!!
So the next day I am out doing spins with "A" in the Sukhoi. He said "my airplane will not do a flat spin" I said I think it will and it will be very similar to the Sukhoi. He went home for a few days and returned for some more Sukhoi flying. He said "you're right, my airplane flat spins much like the Sukhoi". I will only say that pilot A's airplane was a monoplane. The point of all this is twofold. One, the self taught pilots of that era were so good, so intuitive, that they rarely, if ever, entered an inadvertent spin. Of course they botched maneuvers but they recovered before the airplane had a chance to spin. This will work in most of the monoplanes 99.9 percent of the time. I am not willing to say it will work 100 percent of the time. For this reason I think the all controls neutral is potentially very dangerous. Also to simply state RV is equally dangerous. I have never spun an RV. It appears from talking with RV6 owners that the 6 with original vertical tail and aft cg has some issues. The safe bet in all cases is full opposite rudder. Neutral aileron-absolutely, or alternatively inspin aileron. neutral elevator- not such a good idea. Works most of the time in some airplanes but not a reliable method. Use as much elevator as it takes to stop the spin. The Pitts S1S with full fuel and a slightly forward cg will recover very nicely with neutral elevator. Move the cg aft a bit and with neutral elevator it will not even slow down.

I have done a fair amount of exploring this issue over the last 18 years or so. Full opposite rudder is fine, if you know whether you are in an upright or inverted spin. In an inverted spin, the rudders are reversed, in that if you use right rudder to enter the spin, the plane will spin to the left. If you have crossed over from an upright spin because of inexperience, this can bite you, and I believe this is much more common than a plane that won't recover when trying the "power to idle, controls neutral" method.

All Pitts I have ever flown will recover by themselves, if they are within c.g. and if you pull the power and let go of the controls, and put your feet flat on the floor. So will the Extra 300L and 230. Most aerobatic instructors can show you this, and do teach some form of it. It's a lot safer for an inexperienced pilot to use this type of recovery than using the controls to recover if there is any doubt in the pilot's mind as to the appropriate control inputs. I could list five accidents I know of personally that I suspect happened because the pilot became confused and held the incorrect recovery inputs, when he or she would have been fine if they had just made sure the power was at idle, and let go of all the controls. And had plenty of altitude, of course.

I was flying a Pitts Model 12 when the rudder cable let go when I tried to recover from an inverted 1&1/2 turn spin that was in the known sequence that year. The Model 12 is the one with the Vedenyev engine, same as the Sukhoi. That airplane is probably the squirreliest airplane I have ever flown, it would snap into an inverted spin with power on under the slightest provocation. Much more squirrely than even a Sukhoi. But even that plane recovered by itself from the spin after I let go of the controls as I was trying to get the canopy open to jump. And the right rudder cable wasn't even attached to the rudder anymore.

A Pitts S2B with two heavy people in it can have issues with c.g. once you burn some fuel off, so the hands off recovery may be inappropriate at any time the c.g. is near or at the aft limit, in any plane. I would always do any spin training during the first part of the flight in the B, just because of this.

But I still feel the hands off approach, or neutralize the controls, is safer for inexperienced pilots on a general basis.

Again, I have no experience in RV's, so if those that are experienced say that you need to force the controls to neutral, then that is what you should do. Remember, planes are designed to fly, they want to fly, and given the chance, by pulling the power and letting go of the controls, the heavy end usually points at the ground, and the plane streamlines and starts flying again. Yes, perhaps not true in every case, but again I feel a much safer approach for an inexperienced pilot, and one I will continue to teach.

I apologize for beating this to death, but in my experience this is an important safety issue, and before taking any advice from me or anyone else on the internet, I urge everyone to go and find an instructor experienced in the aircraft you are planning to do aerobatics in, and explore with them the spin characteristics of your particular plane.

 

[mv031161]

I am going to split this into at least two messages. First the widespread myth that there has never been a fatality at an IAC sanctioned contest. This was a repeated claim by at least one IAC president and is simply untrue. There was one fatality during a contest flight. It involved structural failure and was a Stits Playboy. There have been two fatalities at contests on practice days, the most recent at Borrego involving a Rocket. Apparent control failure, no attempt to leave the aircraft.

I would like to see where you get your data from. As a member of IAC i have reserached your claims and so far did not find any references made in regards to the two accidents while under a sanctioned IAC event. In regards to practice days, there are cettain reuirements that need to be met in order to be under the IAC umbrella. A bunch of IAC members getting together does not mean it was an IAC sanctioned practice day.

Can you provide your data?

 

[jrs14855]

accidents

The fatal during a contest flight occurred during the late 70's. I believe it was at Salem IL but am not sure about that. It was somewhere in that area. I never attended the Salem contests so did not see it. I believe Carl Bury, a former IAC President, witnessed the accident. Carl told me about the accident. If it was discussed at all in Sport Aerobatics it would surprise me.
I did not know the pilot or anything about the airplane except that it was a Stits Playboy.
The recent Rocket accident was at the BORREGO CONTEST. It was the start of a practice flight in the box immediately prior to the Borrego Contest. If a pilot is registered for a contest and crashes during a practice flight in the contest box, to me that is a contest accident. If you believe otherwise that is your perogative.
I have only a vague recollection of the third accident. Only that it was a Pitts S2S and the pilot was from somewhere in the Kansas City area. Unlimited pilot. I will look up the Borrego accident and post what I find.

 

[mv031161]

The fatal during a contest flight occurred during the late 70's. I believe it was at Salem IL but am not sure about that. It was somewhere in that area. I never attended the Salem contests so did not see it. I believe Carl Bury, a former IAC President, witnessed the accident. Carl told me about the accident. If it was discussed at all in Sport Aerobatics it would surprise me.
I did not know the pilot or anything about the airplane except that it was a Stits Playboy.
The recent Rocket accident was at the BORREGO CONTEST. It was the start of a practice flight in the box immediately prior to the Borrego Contest. If a pilot is registered for a contest and crashes during a practice flight in the contest box, to me that is a contest accident. If you believe otherwise that is your perogative.
I have only a vague recollection of the third accident. Only that it was a Pitts S2S and the pilot was from somewhere in the Kansas City area. Unlimited pilot. I will look up the Borrego accident and post what I find.

I have access to the IAC chapter that organized Borrego and will ask/ However it sounds like you hear this from a guy who heard this from a cousin who heard from another person who was present at the time but not sure.......The official record stand unless you can dispute with actual facts...No IAC accidents so far @ any IAC "Sanctioned" events and thas a record we are proud of it.

As for SPINS,,,,get trained properly! My video was never meat to be used as training just to show you......

For those interested in SPIN TRAINING and EMERGENCY RECOVERY PROCEDURES. I will have Bill Finnagin stop at KLKR after SUN and FUN for two days of classes and tumbling...classes are limited to 5 per day and it cost about $400 a person. Lunch included. RSVP if you want participate.

4 years in a row and counting! we have 32 safer pilots from all flying skills and aircraft equipment that do understand Spins and Emergency procedures better.

 

[jrs14855]

borrego

Took me all of about 30 seconds using fatal crash at borrego springs contest as a starting point. From the IAC website dated 4/08/2010 "At 1pm today a fatal accident occurred during--- a practice flight for a sanctioned aerobatic competetion at borrego springs". I deal in facts, not third hand information or rumors. I was not at Borrego but the accident was widely publicised and I have read the accident reports. I believe the final report is published but cannot remember for sure. I read the inital accident reports almost every day and follow up with the prelimanary and final on many of them. The borrego accident was widely publicised in several west coast aviation publications.

 

[DCat22]

The official record stand unless you can dispute with actual facts...No IAC accidents so far @ any IAC "Sanctioned" events and thas a record we are proud of it.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I read about that on the IAC site when it happened....

For example: http://www.iac.org/news/2010 - 04_08 - Fatal Accident at Borrego Springs Practice.html (more searching will reveal others)

"At approximately 1 PM today, a fatal accident occurred during the course of a practice for a sanctioned aerobatic competition in Borrego Springs, CA. There is one confirmed fatality, but we are working to substantiate further details. Steps are being taken to notify the families concerned, and to assist the authorities with their investigation." (NTSB Report)

What am I missing? Or does it not count, during practice? Or maybe wasn't an official practice day? Not really arguing, just looking for the criteria used to define an "IAC accident" -- I think that would simplify this discussion, and make it pretty clear cut.

 

[mv031161]

Took me all of about 30 seconds using fatal crash at borrego springs contest as a starting point. From the IAC website dated 4/08/2010 "At 1pm today a fatal accident occurred during--- a practice flight for a sanctioned aerobatic competetion at borrego springs". I deal in facts, not third hand information or rumors. I was not at Borrego but the accident was widely publicised and I have read the accident reports. I believe the final report is published but cannot remember for sure. I read the inital accident reports almost every day and follow up with the prelimanary and final on many of them. The borrego accident was widely publicised in several west coast aviation publications.

I found this long time ago, still nowhere it says it was a sanctioned IAC practice session. The question still remains.....

 

[jrs14855]

borrego

If a contestant at a IAC sanctioned contest is registered, on the practice list for the box, and crashes on that practice fiight it is a contest accident.

 

[jrs14855]

contest fatality

This one took me all of 15 seconds. _____was killed on June 11, 1977 while competing in an aerobatic contest over Lekrone Airport, Salem IL, when his single engine Stits Playboy airplane crashed. Goes on to say that debris started coming off the right wing, after which the airplane crashed. Exactly as Carl Bury described to me. IIRC Carl was IAC VP at the time of the accident and subsequently became President.

 

[jrs14855]

IAC

Carl Bury became IAC President in 1978 and served for three years. Carl was one of the original members of the Cleveland IAC chapter. Carl and I attended many of the same contests during the late seventies, so I saw him quite a bit. Carl was a Pitts dealer at that time and I bought all my factory Pitts parts thru Carl. I am quite sure Carl witnessed the Salem accident. However this was a long time ago. I will try to contact Carl and verify.

 

[acroflyrgirl]

Bail out floor

Several posts back someone mentioned the importance of having a hard floor to bail and to review your personal bail out procedures.

The last plane I flew any serious acro in was my S1-S. Now after many years removed I have just purchased an RV6 and want to do some light acro.

What I would like to know, among other things is what is required exactly to get the 6 canopy to depart? Mine is a tip up with the two gas struts on it.

With my Pitts I could always count on sliding the canopy back, and I never had to worry about CG issues. I know this is a whole different animal and am eager to hear your thoughts.

 

[jrs14855]

hard floor

The Rocket accident at Borrego is an interesting study. The pilot had been in the air for awhile and had done some maneuvers. Diving to start another sequence he reported blockage preventing up elevator. He broke the stick off and apparently made no attempt to leave the airplane. There is a very viable option in this situation provided ONLY up elevator is blocked. Roll the airplane inverted and push.( Obviously BEFORE you break the stick) If the blockage remains, gain some altitude inverted and you will be in an optimum position to leave the airplane.
A similar situation happened to a friend in an S1S at Fond du Lac Contest many years ago. Diving into the box to start a sequence the airplane entered a steeper uncommanded dive. He rolles inverted and pushed, gaining plenty of altitude to jump. As the airplane slowed the airplane became controllable but not normal. He elected to land and did so safely. One elevator was mostly gone. The elevator ribs were so badly rusted that they just fell apart.
Control blockage in the various Pitts aircraft is an all too frequent event. A small #6 machine screw can prevent any up elevator.

 

[N355DW]

Good question!

Several posts back someone mentioned the importance of having a hard floor to bail and to review your personal bail out procedures.

The last plane I flew any serious acro in was my S1-S. Now after many years removed I have just purchased an RV6 and want to do some light acro.

What I would like to know, among other things is what is required exactly to get the 6 canopy to depart? Mine is a tip up with the two gas struts on it.

With my Pitts I could always count on sliding the canopy back, and I never had to worry about CG issues. I know this is a whole different animal and am eager to hear your thoughts.

This is a very good question! I wish I could give you an answer. I was the one that posted the importance of having a bailout floor. I am currently building a -7 with a slider, and I plan on designing my canopy so it can be jettisoned.

If you do a search on "jettison" you will find most of the threads I have, and it's not entirely clear to me yet on the best way to do this, but I will figure it out. In your case, I beleive the tip up may or may not have a jettison mechanism, depending on if the builder of your particular aircraft installed it. In any case, the gas struts were a later add-on to the original design, and so even if you have the jettison mechanism on your aircraft, the struts will render it fairly useless, as I understand it. There may be ways to fix this, but I am not the one to suggest them.

I imagine there are some bright after market/builder assist guys that can help you with this, but searching the threads here would be a good start.

Good luck!

Damon

 

[acroflyrgirl]

This is a very good question! I wish I could give you an answer. I was the one that posted the importance of having a bailout floor. I am currently building a -7 with a slider, and I plan on designing my canopy so it can be jettisoned.

If you do a search on "jettison" you will find most of the threads I have, and it's not entirely clear to me yet on the best way to do this, but I will figure it out. In your case, I beleive the tip up may or may not have a jettison mechanism, depending on if the builder of your particular aircraft installed it. In any case, the gas struts were a later add-on to the original design, and so even if you have the jettison mechanism on your aircraft, the struts will render it fairly useless, as I understand it. There may be ways to fix this, but I am not the one to suggest them.

I imagine there are some bright after market/builder assist guys that can help you with this, but searching the threads here would be a good start.

Good luck!

Damon

Damon, thank you. Yes "good luck" may be exactly what I need. I like luck and all but would sure like another option when that runs out.

Maybe I can disable the struts when I fly acro

 

[penguin]

Several posts back someone mentioned the importance of having a hard floor to bail and to review your personal bail out procedures.

The last plane I flew any serious acro in was my S1-S. Now after many years removed I have just purchased an RV6 and want to do some light acro.

What I would like to know, among other things is what is required exactly to get the 6 canopy to depart? Mine is a tip up with the two gas struts on it.

With my Pitts I could always count on sliding the canopy back, and I never had to worry about CG issues. I know this is a whole different animal and am eager to hear your thoughts.

I agree this is an excellent question. I have been flying a tipper 6 for 9 years, in that time I have never heard of anyone who has successfully bailed out of a 6. I would really like to hear if anyone has, and what technique was used to jettison the canopy.

If the canopy latch is not locked the canopy will rise about 6" at the trailing edge, and will be impossible to latch down in flight. Therefore I leave the rear handle across the airplane and assume that I will be able to release the normal latch, followed by pulling the jettison handle and pushing up the front. I assume the bubble will break and the gas struts will be left in mid air.

However this is all guess work, but I'm unwilling to carry out a flight trial ...

Does anyone have any data in this area (do we need to start a new thread?)

Pete

 

[Snowflake]

Pete, there are already many threads debating whether or not a tipper canopy can be made to depart in flight. As you point out, it'll open 6" on its own and stay there. If you look at the hinge mechanism, you'll see that there isn't a way to get the hinge arms out from under the forward skin without the canopy moving up and back.

My take is, you'll need to release the back of the canopy, get it as high as you can, then release the front and somehow try to slide it back and out. The airflow should help once you can get some air under the forward lip, but it's questionable whether you'd be able to slide the canopy with the aerodynamic load on the bubble.

For egress, I think the slider has a significant edge over the tipper.

 

[penguin]

For egress, I think the slider has a significant edge over the tipper.

This is thread drift, but I think a slider has a significant force holding it shut once you are flying, I don't think its advantages are that clear ...

Pete

 

[acroflyrgirl]

However this is all guess work, but I'm unwilling to carry out a flight trial ...

Pete

That is a great quote, made me chuckle.