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Pirkka

Well Known Member
I'd like to see poll in each RV-x -group of used building time (own poll or options for QBs) so people with finished aircraft could vote how much they spend for the project.

It would be nice to see, how much variation there is and real differencies between slow and QB kits. At least I would see this kind of information nice-to-have and based on real people building. If Mr. X does plane in 6 months and Mr. Z in 6 years, the Mr. Z hardly used 12 times more hours though... "exact hours" would tell much more. People are calculating used hours differently, but I think that finally when we would have enough votes, this should get pretty close to the reality.

Comments? Hopefully I'm not the only one willing to know the truth. :)
 
Build times

My RV8 is taking me *exactly* three times longer to build than I anticipated. Of course, when I was writing software, my estimates were about as accurate.
 
I'm keeping general track of time for my builders log, but not exact amounts. I feel it makes building into too much of a competition. I'll take just as long as I need to build, no more no less. :)
 
RV-6A Quick Build 4,234.1 Hours

The EXACT total time is 4,234.1 hours. The kit is a quick built RV-6A. When I made the first flight on 3-21-04 I had 3,871.0 hours in building the airplane. I was 60 when I started, I had one assistant for bucking rivets etc. - my wife Jeanine. I was working on some one of a kind space programs and commuting to work 4 hours every day. My work days were long and irregular when travel or mission operations were being conducted. I never compromised on the quality and if something took two months to do it right I spent two months on it. I designed my own fixes for reported problems (like canopy air leaks) and that also added to the time.

Bob Axsom
 
Pirkka said:
Comments? Hopefully I'm not the only one willing to know the truth. :)
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The "truth" is that RVs do not go together like a Meccano set and that it is absolutely meaningless to consider building hours without knowing anything about the quality of the plane.

As a general rule expect that planes that took more hours will be of higher build quality and that show quality RVs will take massive hours.

On the other hand I know of Slow Build projects that were completed in around 1500 hours but they are without exception very rough.

In plane building, speed of building and quality of construction are incompatible...that's the only "truth".

The other reason hours are meaningless is that most builders only count hours actually in the workshop.....but that may only be half the hours when you add up internet research, collaboration via email forums, studying books and literature on aviation build procedures, purchasing, planning, reading drawings / instructions. Once again, those that spend more time learning (as opposed to throwing things together) will generally produce a safer and more presentable plane.
 
Maybe somethink like...All my freakin spare time for 2-1/2 years...

I've talked to guys about this. You're 100% correct. Time doesn't mean a thing. I know a guy that built an 8 from scratch in a year. Another took 6-7. The quality isn't a real good thing to compare either because guys manage their time differently. Some may spend months building a super duper fixture for their fuselage. Others may decorate their shop..or clean up after each step. Others drink beer and stare at their plane for hours. Even I do that. Its all part of the fun.

No matter what...quality takes extra time. A quality job from a guy who likes to admire his work at every turn takes considerable time. A guy who works like a robot may do the same quality in less time but he wont have the time to admire his work...and drink a beer with his friends. Its all how you go about it.

The bottom line is this..Make sure you have a few years free if you're serious about completing a plane. Many of us know the growing challenges that are part of getting it done. If a guy can't picture his dream, he may not have it.
The time doesn't matter. Focus does. :eek:

John
ExperimentalRV7.com (New)
 
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osxuser said:
I'm keeping general track of time for my builders log, but not exact amounts. I feel it makes building into too much of a competition. I'll take just as long as I need to build, no more no less. :)
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Hear, hear. The only catch is if you're insuring your project, which you should (imho) once you have a significant investment of your time & sweat in those metal chunks. Project insurance covers your labor, should your stuff get destroyed, stolen, etc., and you will want to keep relatively close track of your investment of labor. Just my 2 cents.

But I totally agree with your philosophy here, SS, that it'll be done when it gets done.
 
dan said:
Hear, hear. The only catch is if you're insuring your project, which you should (imho) once you have a significant investment of your time & sweat in those metal chunks. Project insurance covers your labor, should your stuff get destroyed, stolen, etc., and you will want to keep relatively close track of your investment of labor. Just my 2 cents.

But I totally agree with your philosophy here, SS, that it'll be done when it gets done.
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I didn't know insurance was available. But I'll have a general idea because of the builders log. I just meant I wasn't going as far as having a hobbs meter, or counting time when I just stop by the hanger to spray some primer or something...

Who offers insurance? I probably want some once I get into the wing kit.
 
osxuser said:
I didn't know insurance was available. But I'll have a general idea because of the builders log. I just meant I wasn't going as far as having a hobbs meter, or counting time when I just stop by the hanger to spray some primer or something...

Who offers insurance? I probably want some once I get into the wing kit.
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http://www.rvproject.com/insurance.html
 
Case of Wine

When I bought my QB RV-7 kit my mate with an RV-8 said; "If you fly it within 2 yrs I'll buy you acase of wine of your choice!"

I got it.................. by one month.

But I am retired and averaged 80 hrs a month in the workshop.

What I really admire, is the blokes who stick at it for year after year, as they a working a second job. ie. The RV is, of course, the first job.
Pete.
 
I understand you points here. It takes what it takes and when quality gets higher the time and likely the money is used will grow expotentially.

However if "normal builders" would vote their building times finally the average would show the average building time of average plane. We could assume that there are newbies and professionals builders and also basic and then high quality planes. The average in long run should how ever be pretty accurate. Of course deviations and such could be calculated too but for most the basic average would be enough.

Also the way people count their building times differs a lot, but I think most refer to the work shop time. To be realistic how much the project has really taken time, every internet page visited to find out information, visits to airshows etc. to make decision which plane to build and such should be counted. And even I've just make my first orders, I did used at 10 - 20 hours to select the tools I want. And don't know how much used to select the plane itself. Finally the decision was pretty easy, but it took ? year of searching and thinking... It would me quite scary to calculate everything. :eek:
 
Bob Barrow said:
On the other hand I know of Slow Build projects that were completed in around 1500 hours but they are without exception very rough.
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I take exception with this statement. I know of several slow-build projects built in substantially less than 2,000 hours which are far from rough. My own -6 slowbuild, while not likely to win any awards, was built in around 1800 hours, and I daresay is not rough, certainly not where it counts (well built.) Sam built a slow-build 6 and painted it in around 1000 hours. There are other examples. Some people just work at different speeds.
 
Be careful what you ask for

All of my time is shop time recorded from sign-in at entry to sign-out at the end of a work session. Now you are saying you only want normal builder times. I thought your original query was a good one to get hard actual numbers from real builders and let the data determine the mean, mediun, standard deviation and the distribution but you are now putting a predudicial bias filter on the data which kills the objective. The numbers you want to hear are 1300 hours for a quick built kit and 2000 hours for a slow built one. Oh by the way, in case you were wondering why my numbers continued accummulating after the first flight, it is because things had to be fixed as a result of testing or things had to be done to bring the plane to its final state. Adding in the autopilot, etc. is included for example but no routine maintenance is included. My time was definitly affected by incorporating tip tanks to increase the wing span from 23 to 24.5 feet and the capacity to 55 gallons with all of the attendant design decisions relating to fuel flow and control. Even though the plane won nothing it was entered for judging at Sun 'n' Fun and Oshkosh last year and I believe it is a show quality airplane.

Bob Axsom

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I think Dan makes a good point about keeping track of time for the insurance, which I will get as soon as I get the wing kit in the house. I've decided that keeping too close an account of both time and money will drive me nuts, so I'm just keeping a rough estimate. It really doesn't matter. While I will enjoy the building of my plane, there is no doubt that I'm doing this so I can have my own plane to FLY! I was talking to a friend and he was asking how long it will take ( I think he is thinking about taking the plunge too ), and I couldn't give him a number. I THINK I can move along rather quickly, due to being a metal working guy for a living. My biggest problem at this point is $$$. I need to order the wing kit now, and my Mooney isn't selling :( It's been advertised for 6 weeks with only 1 email inquiry. My standard answer to people who ask is " a couple of years". Too many variables. I'm also learning the website thing - www.davesrv7.com ( I'm a total newb at this :) )
 
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A guide to quality

sprucemoose said:
I take exception with this statement. I know of several slow-build projects built in substantially less than 2,000 hours which are far from rough. My own -6 slowbuild, while not likely to win any awards, was built in around 1800 hours, and I daresay is not rough, certainly not where it counts (well built.) Sam built a slow-build 6 and painted it in around 1000 hours. There are other examples. Some people just work at different speeds.
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Well to be honest "rough" is a purely subjective description. I have a background in precision engineering so what might be "rough" to me might be quite reasonable to some-one else.

But at any rate I did not say that your plane was rough. You are misquoting me. What I specifically said was that of the Slow Build RVs that I have inspected those that were completed in approximately 1500 hours were rough. I stand by that statement although I concede that it might be possible to build a quality RV in 1500 hours....it's just that I personally haven't seen one.

To put this in some sort of perspective one might refer to Page 5 of the Official EAAA Judging Standards Manual. A copy can be retrieved at this address http://www.airventure.org/awards/

Many RV builders feel that they are building to workmanship equivalent to certificated standards but from reading the Manual it will be apparent that in most instances this is unlikely to be the case....certainly it will not be the case with a 1500 hour Slow Build RV.

The best that can be hoped for in a 1500 hour Slow Build is "Average" quality or below. This rates from 0 to 4 on the judging scale. Above average quality rates from 5 to 7. Planes rating from 8 to 10 are regarded as being equal to or better than a "factory new" aircraft.

Many builders claim that their RV is a "safe" aircraft. That may well be the case but this alone does not constitute a quality build. It can be seen from the Manual that planes falling in the 1 to 4 sector are regarded as being "airworthy" but exhibiting "little finesse or detail".
 
The decision tree needs to be in context for max insight

If you open the Official EAA Judging Standards Manual, it is best to read the whole document - it is very good in my opinion. Especially important are the Judging Practices in section IV, the Judging Criteria in paragraph IV.H and the Custombuilt Judging Forms A and B. Note on Form A, item 7, I believe "POWER PLANT AND DROP" SHOULD BE "... PROP".

Bob Axsom
 
sprucemoose said:
I take exception with this statement. I know of several slow-build projects built in substantially less than 2,000 hours which are far from rough. My own -6 slowbuild, while not likely to win any awards, was built in around 1800 hours, and I daresay is not rough, certainly not where it counts (well built.) Sam built a slow-build 6 and painted it in around 1000 hours. There are other examples. Some people just work at different speeds.
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Good point Jeff. I hate to see someone argue that a "quality" plane means either one that takes 4000 hours or one that is worthy of an airshow award. I recognize that people can use the same words to mean different things, but to say that that everything else is "rough" (a pejorative term at best) seems like posturing that only discourages those who are wondering whether they've got the time or ability to build a quality plane.

To me a quality airplane is a safe airplane. If all the builders who have put their RVs together in under 1500-2000 hours have "rough" airplanes, I have seen a lot of "rough" ones, and I would have expected them to be falling out of the sky by now. That RVs are not falling out of the sky for structural reasons suggests that Van's has done whatever over-engineering is required to allow the averagely skilled builder to produce a "quality" airplane, even if there are mistakes in the building process and finished product (some mistakes are better left alone than fixed). Moreover, that so many get their airworthiness certificates from knowledgeable and concientious DARs also suggests that these "slapped together" RV's are pretty safe. Granted, maybe not all the shop heads look as neat as those that take 4000 hours to build, but I doubt most 1500-hour RVs are less "safe" [to quote from an earlier post on this thread] than those that take 4000 hours. Of those who are taking longer, that I've seen, they are taking longer because builders are doing modifications (sometimes just to get awards, or to satisfy their own needs--to each their own), not because they are spending any more time making a "safer" airplane.

Pirrka--I think you are asking a good question in asking how long it takes. New or prospective builders need to ask and seriously consider the answer to this this question. I suspect the reason that many kit aircraft are left unfinished or sold before being finished is because the builder did not seriously or realistically consider this question. As you can see, the answer is quite variable. Remember also though that the older RV-4s and -6s are a whole different kit that the newer models that appear to be going together much more quickly. I'm not done, so my answer is highly speculative, but it's looking like it will be in the 1700-2000 hour range... I'm anticipating a steep learning curve on the wiring and FWF. Mine will not not be a "show" airplane (I guess that means it will be "rough"), but it will be safe, or I won't fly it. Good luck.
 
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Bob Barrow said:
But at any rate I did not say that your plane was rough. You are misquoting me. What I specifically said was that of the Slow Build RVs that I have inspected those that were completed in approximately 1500 hours were rough. I stand by that statement although I concede that it might be possible to build a quality RV in 1500 hours....it's just that I personally haven't seen one.
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You callin' my baby ugly? You want to step outside and settle this?

just kidding, hahaha.
 
6 Months to build

Pirrka,
If you waited for the summer, you should be able to build it in six months................... in the Land of the Midnight Sun.
Pete
 
Safe alone is not quality.

alpinelakespilot2000 said:
To me a quality airplane is a safe airplane.
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I'm sorry but the EAAA disagrees with you. Please take the time to read their Judging Manual.

In reality there is so much structural redundancy in an RV that you can build a quite horrid plane and it might still be airworthy. As I have previously pointed out airworthy planes only rate between a 1 and 4 in the Judging Manual. To achieve a higher score (in other words to achieve quality) you must build with "finesse and attention to detail".

So there it is. Safe alone is not quality. Craftsmanship, finesse, and attention to detail is what constitutes quality....and those things take time and cannot be impatiently rushed.

Most RV builders live in a cumulus cloud of kudos supported by an inevitable updraft of constant praise from relatives, friends and wannabee builders who wouldn't know the difference between a wing spar and a bath spa. That type of environment can lead impatient builders to be dishonest, even with themselves, about the real merit of their workmanship.

For those who are in doubt they may refer to a very simple mathematical equation: Low build time = Low build quality.
 
I did forget to mention one important thing..I'm married with two kids and a full time job. I managed them all but it was tough.

If you have a family and kids you need to pull yourself away more. At the same time, you need to jump back into it when you see the openings. Working through bad days and tough times is difficult but thats what it takes if you're trying to meet a deadline.

In my case I knew that if I let it drag on, my family would have to deal with it longer. I opted to do the best I could as soon as I could do it. Quality was important but family was more.

It really took a lot of kicks in the butt on my part. If it was just my world I'd have taken about 4 years. That would be a nice pace to work with if you're working a job at the same time.

John
ExperimentalRV7.com
 
Benefited from others before me

sprucemoose said:
I take exception with this statement. I know of several slow-build projects built in substantially less than 2,000 hours which are far from rough. My own -6 slowbuild, while not likely to win any awards, was built in around 1800 hours, and I daresay is not rough, certainly not where it counts (well built.) Sam built a slow-build 6 and painted it in around 1000 hours. There are other examples. Some people just work at different speeds.
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I take exception to this quote as well.
My build time today is 1455 hours on my 7A and figure I'm a few weeks from first flight. It's won't be a show plan but is built very well with little defects.
I built it to fly and have fun.

When I start working on my project, I'm prepared to work with little wasted shop time. I also feel I've benefited significantly from others before me that have tackled problems and issues that have saved me large chunks of time to not have to rework many items. Any build questions or confusion in applications has usually been resolved by checking in with Dan Checkoway's build site. Thank you Dan for such a well documented builder's log.
 
OK when you get it done...

When you get it done tell the guy how many hours it took and I think you are done. Of course it will fly hands off right out of the box with no, weight & balance problems, heavy wing, yaw ball out of center, dragging brakes, fairing clearance problems, pitot problems, static problems, fuel leaks, air leaks, starting problems, engine timing problems, fuel delivery problems, oil pressure problems, oil temperature problems, avionic problems, flap problems, radio frequency interference problems, etc. That's what everybody says in their glowing letters to Van's. Obviously because of this track record there is no need for careful systems integration & test, it's an RV right, thousands of them are flying! Aren't they all exactly alike?

Bob Axsom
 
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Thanks Bob!

Bob Barrow said:
For those who are in doubt they may refer to a very simple mathematical equation: Low build time = Low build quality.
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Bob - Thanks much - I will ask you never to look at my airplane - I don't think that I could take all of the negatives I am sure you can find.

Build time - 1040 Hours in 18 months. It's obviously a piece of junk! :mad:

Sorry, I think that post just touches some kind of nerve....people build at different rates,and have different talents and skills. They also have different goals. Mine is a fine, safe, efficient traveling machine. I have no interest in pleasing anyone but myself (and of course, the requiste DAR who signed it off).

Paul
 
Build Time

Ironflight said:
Build time - 1040 Hours in 18 months.
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1000 hours is what Van's says the QB should take. Sounds like you did it like Van recommended, and didn't dilly-dally around like the rest of us!

I have a lot of entries in my builder's logbook like this:

Code: 
11 February 2006                     10:30-12:00
Staring at wiring
1.5 hours - no real work done. I was trying to figure out how to do something with the wiring, but I just didn't get there. Paul, I'll bet you don't have many entries like this if you got it done in just over 1000 hours!
 
Ironflight said:
Sorry, I think that post just touches some kind of nerve....people build at different rates,and have different talents and skills. They also have different goals. Mine is a fine, safe, efficient traveling machine. I have no interest in pleasing anyone but myself (and of course, the requiste DAR who signed it off).
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Well said Paul. I've been trying to figure out a tactful way to say this myself.

My first RV-8 was a slow build, and took 1602 hours of shop time, over 2.5 years of less than motivated time. That didn't include paint.

The current RV-8 is a QB (getting smarter with age), and will take 700-800 hours. I started Feb 18th of this year, and plan to be flying it by the Fall or sooner.

Neither plane would be considered "rough" by 98% of the people who look at them. I have no intention of trying to please the other 2% :D

Cheers,
Rusty (hanging my new Aerosport O-360)
 
Ironflight said:
....people build at different rates,and have different talents and skills. They also have different goals. Mine is a fine, safe, efficient traveling machine. I have no interest in pleasing anyone but myself (and of course, the requiste DAR who signed it off).
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Yep, my thoughts exactly. I'm sure some builders are toiling away thinking about awards and trophies they might win at Oshkosh or S-n-F, but personally, I could care less about my -8 (QB) being judged. I'm not building it for shows or awards, I'm building it for me.
 
Ironflight said:
Bob - Thanks much - I will ask you never to look at my airplane - I don't think that I could take all of the negatives I am sure you can find.

Build time - 1040 Hours in 18 months. It's obviously a piece of junk! :mad:

Sorry, I think that post just touches some kind of nerve....people build at different rates,and have different talents and skills. They also have different goals. Mine is a fine, safe, efficient traveling machine. I have no interest in pleasing anyone but myself (and of course, the requiste DAR who signed it off).
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Bravo! My thoughts exactly (ps - from the photo's I've seen, I think Paul's plane is damn nice)
 
ExperimentalRV-7 said:
Others drink beer and stare at their plane for hours.

John
ExperimentalRV7.com (New)
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I kinda like that aspect of the kit construction agenda. I know there will be days that I sit and stare. And the question that will be ever present will be; "What was I thinking?" followed immediately by - "I need another beer!" AND then the biggest question of all will emminate from the shop..... HONEY - whatcha doin'?!"

Just kidding.

As for the time invested in the kit construction, I heard of a guy that built an RV? in 85 days and flew it to Oshkosh. It was missing any interior but it was airworthy. I also know a fella that spent a lot of extra time on one small area of his paint making it look perfect. He even admitted you couldn't see what he was working on in the sun light - only under the shop lights. That was time invested in the plane but it may or may not make the construction log book. I don't think I'm going to be that detail oriented.

Either way you go - it's gotta be fun! I'm of the belief that if I start getting stressed or feel rushed about some aspect of the build - I will need take a break and go snuggle with the wife or tqake in a movie. The actual "time-to-build" will be irrelevant.

Robert
 
Robert M said:
I kinda like that aspect of the kit construction agenda. I know there will be days that I sit and stare.
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My wife calls this the "pick it up and put it down thing." While building my first RV (starting a second in a couple of years :) ) after I finished a particularly rewarding part, sometimes she would catch me futzing with the completed part without really accomplishing anything other than being pleased with myself.
 
Pirkka,

Shame on you for asking such a controversial question! :)

Guys, if you ask 5 different people about "quality" you will get 8 different opinions. A Harvard researcher found that we use 5 different definitions of the word "quality". It is difficult to have a conversation about something if you are using different definitions of the same words.

Some of you are using the "manufacturing" based view of quality which says the product is quality if it meets specification. That can be OK, but the spec you are meeting must meet customer needs. For example, a car manufacturer could set a spec for their new car that says it accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in 25 seconds. If they produce cars that do that, they can say the car is quality. Obviously from the "user" based view of quality, this car won't be considered quality. It would get you killed trying to get on an interstate.

The problem with the "user" based view of quality is that different users have different wants or needs and thus, different quality standards. Those who want their planes judged using the EAA criteria will have a different standard that those who want a plane to let them temporarily thumb their noses at the law of gravity.

Ok, enough lecture. We'll cover the transcedent, product, and value based views of quality tomorrow. Rember, there will be a test on the above material later. So, be sure to study. :)

BTW, I am about 950 hours into the project and am only to the point where I have the top skins riveted on just one of the wings. However, both tanks are done and the balloon still looks full after 1.5 hours. At this rate, I may have a grand champion on my hands!
 
Hmm... Low build time = low quality? I don't want to make anyone mad, because personally I think everybody works at a different speed, logs times differently, and has different technical skills. I think build time has nothing to do with quality in general. However, since Bob tried to make a blanket generalization, I would have to disagree. Instead I think that the opposite of Bobs comment is more commonly true, high build time = poor quality. Sure there are those "fine craftsman" who re-do the safety wire when one of the twists is .05mm larger than the others, replace multiple parts because 1 of the rivets is 1mm out of line, or add 25 lbs of primer, including priming every rivet, screw and bolt. I'm not downplaying the importance of attention to detail, but much of what people give attention to can be a waste of time in many peoples eyes. Now take away the craftsman who want everything absolutely perfect and will accept nothing less (a minority of builders), and who is left building with high build times? Most likely, people with less technical skill, people who make, and have to try and correct a lot of mistakes, people who do a lot of "re-engineering" of the design, and people who are maybe a bit disorganized in their approach to building. Not that folks with all of these attributes can't and don't built some beautiful aircraft, but in general I think the quality may be a bit less than someone with excellent technical skills and building experience who is well organized, follows the plans, and can get an equivalent or better final result in much less time.
 
The Rest of the story....

Now that I am back on line (just flew back from up north), and am working with an internet connection that is better than two coconuts and a string that I had up there, I want to elaborate just a little on my post.

1) Rememebr that my RV-8 is yet to be painted. I have painted my own plane before, and I would estimate that if I wanted to do this one myself, it would take me hundreds of hours!

2) I very accurately logged my shop time, but what is not included is all the THINKING time! I never go into the shop without having already pictured what I am going to do in my mind - from start to finish. When I pick up the tools, I have already built it in my mind. And that thinking time is a HUGE number of hours. Doesn't mean I don't get stuck on occasion, but I try to keep those to a minimum.

3) Another big contributor to a fast build is never having to wait for stuff to arrive - ordering far enough in advance to keep yourself in parts. You have to stay ahead of your building with your designing (avionics, systems, etc.) This takes money - like knowing you have all the cash you are going to need for the plane before you start. I know that I was very blessed to have that advantage.

4) I have been working on airplanes most of my life. When I started the RV, the only thing I had never done was sheet-metal fabrication, but I did have some riveting experience. Wiring, plumbing, avionics, FWF - I'd done all that before, so there were few surprises.

I only wanted to make this amplification so that people take that "thousand hours" in context. I seriously doubt that I could build the next one any faster!

Now I just flew six hours - where's that cold beer?! :rolleyes:

Paul
 
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