Fuel Used

  • 100LL

    Votes: 110 65.1%

  • mixture 100LL,cargas

    Votes: 16 9.5%

  • mixture 100LL,mogas

    Votes: 10 5.9%

  • mogas

    Votes: 33 19.5%
  • Total voters
    169
turbo

turbo

Well Known Member
What are people using for fuel in these experimentals? With the cost of fuel rising there is $ to be saved if safety is included in the plan. i started with straight 100LL in my takeoff and landing tank and 5/1 mix of more car gas in cruize tank. luckily the gas station is 1/4 mile from hanger. more recently i have been running 50/50 mix in takeoff and land tank. i have flown thousands of hours this way so far with no problems. Turbo
 
turbo said:
Alcohol is in the cargas
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This I didn't know.

Turbo, if you search around there's been quite a few posts debating this topic, although it is interesting to see what people are actually doing vs. what's said. I did an experiment well over a year ago testing the effects of alcohol on typical fuel system parts. i.e. pro-seal, gaskets from the fuel cap, strainer and carburetor. I found the alcohol softened these parts more than 100ll, but in my opinion not to the point of failure. Pro-seal is tricky, if not mixed in the right proportions, too "lean of a mixture" for example seems to deteriorate faster than the correct amount, obviously. Ask me how I know. :D I voted for pure mogas, as 100ll isn't readily available in my neck of the woods. If it were, I'd be going with a 50/50 mix. I can really feel and hear the difference between the two and I'm not sure it's healthy on an o-360 to be burning 92oct mogas.
I need my own "gas station" on my strip.
my $.02 for ya.
 
I didn't know that either

As to whether Mogas is healthy for an O360 I would argue the 100LL is less healthy.

If your CR is reasonable and so your timing then the only thing 100LL is doing is fouling the plugs and providing another contaminant for the oil.

This assumes you have a "Modern" o360 (newer than 20 years I believe) with hardened valve seats.

I bet there are a few running on cargas only too..i.e the poll should have another category.
 
Mag checks are fine, 50-75 drop each side... I wont argue 100ll is healthier, but I've grown to know the way a lycoming sounds and feals while running on it. Perhaps I'll forget with more hours on mogas. In the mean time, it just makes me nervous. No fouling is a plus!
I don't know if you'd call my o-360 new... the major moving parts are new or overhauled. The rest of the engine came from well over 20 different sources.
 
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Safety and is it really cheaper?

The NTSB accident reports are littered with Mogas or Car gas related accidents, eg vapor lock, fuel contamination and so on. If you don't believe me check it out. Unfortunately "FUEL SYSTEM - VAPOR LOCK" lock is not the only key work that turns up the results. Some times FUEL SYSTEM - STARVATION comes up and you have to read the text where it mentions automotive fuel and loss of fuel pressure.

Also checking for autogas, automotive gas, I forgot all the possible variations will turn up (some of) the accidents related to car gas.

Also automotive gas is more subject to carb icing as well. Of course the ability of autogas to hold more water and be retail with No-No additives (alcohol) is well known. Hot RV cowl, hot temps with autogas equals high likely hood of vapor lock.

To be fair some avfuel planes have suffered the two above. Mixing is an unknown and inexact science or known entity.

How much do you save?

I use only 100LL and the savings is very small to go to mo-gas (some will say savings are great, but the math does no work out). As gas goes up, that $1 (or less) difference from 100L v Mogas is a smaller percent of the total cost.

Is it worth it to slep to the gas station with gas containers in tow and haul it to the airport and fuel you plane. Is it worth it?

Last on a cross country you are not going to use Mogas in your 160HP and up engine. You just are not going to find much Regular Mogas and you can forget premium Mogas. Mogas sold at airports by the way is way more than hauling it from a gas station, so that possible $1 savings is shot. I have seen MOgas cost MORE than 100LL!

Last unless you have a 150HP engine, you should only consider premium car gas, which is not readily available at airports which sell "regular".

If you run any car gas you lower the resistance to vapor lock (increase vapor pressure). RV's have very tight hot cowls. If you attempt auto gas (and I am not recommending) you should take all the precautions to cool and insulate gascolator, fuel pump and fuel lines at least. Some even add a small vapor return line.

You can see I am not a fan of car gas and think its false economy, sorry. The average cost of 100LL is $4.00-$4.50 and car gas is in the $3.30-$3.50 for regular, premium a little more. Getting and hauling gas is a pain and dangerous in that its flammable and you can introduce contamination into the fuel.

I know there are devote believers. This is not written for you. For those who want to be fully informed take my info and advise, really check it out 100%, research it. It's not all bad, but there are real issues. Just my opinion, please don't flame me I am sensitive. :rolleyes:
 
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gmcjetpilot said:
How much do you save?
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I have a 100 gallon tank on a trailer with a 12V pump. I have pumped over 5,000 gallons though the system saving an average of about $1 a gallon, as I only use 92 octane preimium mogas, and mix it with 100LL depending on the engine. That roughly $5,000 savings.

George, being aware of what you are pumping, fuel management, and cleanliness must be taken very seriously. Mogas is manageable if proper precautions are taken. Using 5 gallon metal cans from the back of a pickup is not a good idea.

I have seen horrid "fuel systems" when visiting other RV pilots and their hangers. Deteriorating hoses sheading rubber into the fuel, :eek: old rank gas being mixed with new gas.:eek: NO FILTERING?:eek: rusty 55 gallon drums for storage with no tops!:eek:

We can debate 100LL -v- Mogas all day long, but the facts are alot of us have used it safely for years and with fuel prices what they are I suspect more pilots looking towards their local gas stations for relief.
 
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Definately

Mogas/cargas does have have some downsides, but they are manageable.

Thats why my fuel pumps are in my wingroots..Not having any kind of pump inside a hot cowl and bolted to a hot engine means I can all but forget about VL issues.

Frank
 
Not all mogas has alki in it.

I would think again before using that statement. Don't go by the fact there is NO label stating so. I thought that, until I tested the mogas in my town. If you find a station that doesn't have mogas, I would test it every single time. The fuel companies now get tax relief if they put in that alki.

answer to all of this, start pushing for fuel that doesn't have lead in it at our local airports, then we can have an alternative. A safe alternative.
 
Right on, it is doable

Geico266 said:
We can debate 100LL -v- Mogas all day long, but the facts are alot of us have used it safely for years and with fuel prices what they are I suspect more pilots looking towards their local gas stations for relief.
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Right I totally agree its all manageable but needs to be taken seriously. Of course the truck, tank, pumps, time and effort are there, but the point you make is well taken, there is a right way and a wrong way.

That is the main point, you open yourself up to possible issues. Some airports also will not allow you to fuel your plane from your own containers in any fashion. Some say liability, some say regulations or fire codes. No doubt taking sales from their airport pumps is a factor. Fueling in the hanger is a no-no by most fire codes and common sense.

Also 5000 gal is a lot-O-fuel. If your RV burns 10 gal/hr for example and you fly 150 hrs a year, high by most standards, that is 1,500 gal. However to get your own fuel you need all the gear, which cost money. I don't have a truck and pretty soon with gas prices I might get a Vespa! ha-ha :D

The best deal I've seen was a friend who lived on a small community airport, nothing fancy, an airport truck. keys under the visor, with a nice tank, filter, meter and pump. It was self serve, you pump and made an entry on the log sheet, on the honor system. You paid your fuel bill at the end of the month. They used 100LL, but got a volume discount. It was a cool deal.

Not sure what the savings would be if your own 500 gal tank and shared with a group even with Av fuel? I'm sure regulations and hassles would get in the way.
 
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gmcjetpilot said:
Also 5000 gal is a lot-O-fuel. If your RV burns 10 gal/hr for example and you fly 150 hrs a year, high by most standards, that is 1,500 gal. However to get your own fuel you need all the gear, which cost money. I don't have a truck and pretty soon with gas prices I might get a Vespa! ha-ha :D
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I fly about 200 hours a year so using Mogas has a big cost benifit to me. My fuel tank trailer, pump & filters cost about $500 to build, so the savings of $5,000 is well worth the investment, and I still have a fuel trailer worth $500. ;)

The trailer loaded with fuel is approximately 850 pounds. Your Vespa would tow that! Stopping is another matter though. :eek:
 
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Someone mentioned convenience or inconvenience with hauling 5 gal. cans. There's another aspect to the this issue. Where do you get your fuel? If your airport has 100LL, then 100LL is easy. But if there is no fuel on your airport, then hauling mogas can be more convenient. For me, the gas station is on the way to the airport. Throw the jugs in the back of the pickup, fill up on the way to the airport, test the fuel and fill the plane. Other choice is fly 20 mi. to an airport with fuel, which may or may not be in the direction I want to go. If your plane has a small fuel tank, as mine does, you spend a lot of your flying just to go get fuel.

I'd rather haul mogas in 5 gal. jugs--for me it is more convenient.
 
Why not do as the farmer crowd does, at least for those of us that drive pickups, and put a 50 or 75 gallon tank with a 12-volt gear pump in the bed of the truck? They will work just as well for mogas as they will for diesel. That way you've always got fuel with your wheels, electrically pumped, with a standard pump dispensing handle. Park your pickup in your hangar while you're flying, and fuel the plane when you return. Top off the pickup tank on the way home.
 
gmcjetpilot said:
<SNIP>

That is the main point, you open yourself up to possible issues. Some airports also will not allow you to fuel your plane from your own containers in any fashion. Some say liability, some say regulations or fire codes. No doubt taking sales from their airport pumps is a factor. Fueling in the hanger is a no-no by most fire codes and common sense.

<SNIP>
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Don't forget that if the airport was developed or improved with federal money they can not prohibit self-fueling.
 
I'd like to hear more about this!

JHines said:
Don't forget that if the airport was developed or improved with federal money they can not prohibit self-fueling.
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That sounds great to me. How did you find that out and where can I learn more about this "law"?


I have a friend of mine who used to fly traffic spotting in his 150 for a radio station. He flew six hours a day five days a week for several years burning a 50/50 mix of 100LL and car gas. He had a tank with a 12v fuel pump and filters in the back of his pickup he used for transporting the car gas. He never had a problem after switching to the 50/50 and his problems with lead fouling and stuck valves went away.
 
$$$ saved

I'm using avgas in my new ECI at least through the 40 hour phase 1 period. To save some money, I asked my FBO to sell me 350 gallons of 100LL and what kind of fixed price can you give me?
It was a big check (credit card would've added another 2%) but I figured pay now or pay more later. Gas prices aren't going down.

Something to think about,
Steve
N345SF
 
I answered mix of LL and Mogas as I don't have Mogas available all the time and am still experimenting with it for compatability in my -4. The mogas I can get is at GRE/Greenville IL and is 93 oct and so far has run flawlessly (I only run 91 or better as the peterson STC that would apply to my engine specifies premium, 160 horse O-320). In fact I just owner assisted on my condition inspection and my plugs were spotless and all engine, oil, compression inspections were perfect. In fact my engine comps were up from last inspection, which is likely just tester/measurement error but who knows, so maybe the rings/valves are cleaner too and sealing better.

In regards to the answer of "Mix LL/Mogas" I have run mixes of the two together and I have run 100% premium airport Mogas by itself without issue (to 11500 ft BTW, admittedly at low OAT so far). As summer heats up I will finalise my test/confidence in the 93 octane but so far I prefer it to LL. If they were the same price I'd take the premium mogas (in fact at GRE there's only 20-40 cents difference).
 
just a quick note:


I put car gas in my 150hp cherokee all the time. I've got an STC for it, placarded for 100LL or 87 octane automotive fuel.

I spent $50 or so and bought one of those large, high flow water separating filtering funnels from spruce. It makes it faster and easier to get forty gallons of fuel into the tanks from 5 gal cans, plus it does a VERY effective job of taking the crud and debris out of the fuel, and you'd be surprised how much crud there is!


I've run about 300 hours worth of car gas with zero problems other than the fact that it's a bit inconvenient to fuel. Considering car gas is currently $3.70 and avgas at RYY is $5.30, it's worthwhile.
 
$$$ saved

Brad,
The current prices at KOGD are $5.15 from the truck and $4.79 at the self serve. I locked in at $4.95. I bought fuel from the self serve last night and have not yet tapped into my 350 gal stash. The FBO owner assures me the price is going up another $.25/gal after the weekend.

Steve
 
wingtime said:
That sounds great to me. How did you find that out and where can I learn more about this "law"?

>...
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JHines pointed out one of the docs. Here are some more that were passed along to me by Randy Hansen at EAA:

http://iflyit.net/index.php?topic=9.0

EAA knew that there would be push back from airports and FBOs who would not want fuel competition when the STCs were approved years ago, so they made sure that they had their ducks in a row with FAA when the STCs came out, otherwise they knew they would never sell any of them if people couldn't get mogas to their airplanes.

Of course this has all become rather moot west of the Rockies where we have no airports with mogas service; we were all self fueling. Now that CA has put ethanol in all of their gasoline with no law and no exceptions and Oregon is implementing a mandatory E10 law and Washington is implementing a partial mandatory E10 law, self fueling is rapidly disappearing and thousands of STCs have been rendered worthless. So far AOPA and EAA could care less.
 
Saving Money on Fuel

Car gasoline (MoGas) can freeze because the alcohol will bring in water. Last time I checked (Today) the temperature at altitude was below freezing. Some people spend thousands of hours building a plane then run a freezeable fuel crash and burn and kill themselfs. I don't know what other people think but I think this is stupid!
 
leeschaumberg said:
Car gasoline (MoGas) can freeze because the alcohol will bring in water. Last time I checked (Today) the temperature at altitude was below freezing. Some people spend thousands of hours building a plane then run a freezeable fuel crash and burn and kill themselfs. I don't know what other people think but I think this is stupid!
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Maybe they won't burn because the fuel is frozen! :rolleyes:
 
If we are going to crash and die due to autogas freezing, or expanding, or vapor locking, or exploding, or losing octane levels after a week, or whatever else it is that people think it does.. why do STC's exist for some certified airplanes???
 
What I've been really curious about is what happens if you run car gas with 10% ethanol that happens to have entrained water through a water separating filter.

I imagine the filter removes the entrained water. I'd LOVE to be able to think that the alcohol is bound to the water tightly enough that the alcohol comes out with it, but I don't think science will support me in that.



I need to do some empirical analysis :D
 
JHines said:
All the STCs specify no-alcohol MOGAS. Water is soluble in alcohol but not in gasoline.
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Not true.

Water is MORE soluble in alcohol than gasoline. Gasoline will hold a certain amount of water, just not much.
 
tmbg said:
What I've been really curious about is what happens if you run car gas with 10% ethanol that happens to have entrained water through a water separating filter.

I imagine the filter removes the entrained water. I'd LOVE to be able to think that the alcohol is bound to the water tightly enough that the alcohol comes out with it, but I don't think science will support me in that.



I need to do some empirical analysis :D
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It will, to an extent.

Just look at the (I believe EAA?) test for finding alcohol content - I'm referring to the test that has you put 1 part water with 9 parts gasoline, shake it and let it settle, and then read the level of "water" again. If it increased (by pulling some of the alcohol out of the fuel into solution in the water), then the fuel contains alcohol. Now reverse that reasoning - if the water pulled the alcohol out, then the remaining fuel contains LESS alcohol now than it did before. Of course, you've also completely hydrated the gasoline by saturating it with as much water as it will hold in solution - which in the end is going to cause MORE problems than getting rid of all the alcohol will solve.

If you've got ethanol-mix fuel with some water in it that is COMPLETELY DISSOLVED at it's current temperature and pressure, and you run it through a water separation filter, nothing happens because the water is completely dissolved. Now change the temperature and pressure after that point, and all bets are off. If you've got enough water in the fuel that it has already started to separate out, then yes the separation filter will grab it.
 
airguy said:
Not true.

Water is MORE soluble in alcohol than gasoline. Gasoline will hold a certain amount of water, just not much.
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OK, I'm no chemist, should have been more specific, let me try to restate it:

Water's solubility in alcohol is sufficiently greater than in gasoline, such that, according to conventional wisdom, water in the tanks of straight gasoline can be removed to a safe extent before flight, BUT gasoline containing alcohol can/will/might hold enough dissolved water to present a high-altitude freezing problem.

Personally, I really want to use MOGAS and I hope the above statement is either not as big a concern as believed or that there is some techincal solution.
 
Gasoline does not freeze at any temperature you'd be flying at. Water entrained in the fuel could potentially cause ice to form in a line but generally only in a static state. The "frozen gas line" syndrome exists primarily in marketing schemes for those selling gas line antifreeze (methanol) for about $2 for 6 oz.

Never been a victim of this and never seen it in a car or aircraft in 30 years and down to -44C.:eek:

Never used gas line antifreeze.
 
Hey Ross

I never used ETOH blended fuel ...yet but the day may come soon.

Have you found any issue with the ETOH softening the proseal in the tanks?

The rest of my system is fine from a material compatibility point of view.

Thanks

Frank
 
proseal problem?

frank, i have been using car gas mix for over 2,000 hrs and have seen no problems. 50/50 mix in takeoff and land tank, 5/1 mix in cruize tank. it is not for everyone but if saved over 10 grand on first engine. it went 3,150 hobbs hrs. the cylinders wre in good shape, the cam lifter started making metal. sold engine and bought new thunderbolt. turbo
 
Octane value

OK gas whizzes, if mixing AVGAS and MOGAS, anybody know if you can consider the mixture the average of the octane ratings?

On my home airport, we have 87 octane tested alcohol free mogas we get delivered in our 500 gal tank. It is the only fuel we have on our feild. We have a well maintained delivery system with good filtration and water seperation. The 9 aircraft on me feild (including my C177) have all run this fuel for over a decade and we've had great results. My new RV-6 has an XP-360 with 8.5:1 pistons. Currently I'm only using 100LL in it, but it would be great to run a mixture of MOGAS and 100LL. Superior says it is fine to use premium alcohol free cargas. If I mixed 50/50 87 octane and 100LL, can I consider that the average of the two octane's.

Also, anybody know if the mixure will be homogenous, or will it seperate into the two types?

I don't want to ask the other members at our airport to pay more for premuim grade, as none of them need it. The plane is so much fun, I'm flying it a bunch. Costing me a fortune!!!
 
So Dale

This begs the question..What compression ratio are you running in the C177?

And if its 8.5:1 then why won't 87 octane fuel run in your RV...Vapour lock notwithstanding.

I know Rocketbob uses 87 octane in his RV...

Seems to me unless your getting detonation in your Cardinal that you don't know about then it should be perfectly fine in the RV..

Am I missing something?

Frank
 
lcnmrv8r said:
I'm just curious, but how many of you guys have ever had frozen gas in your cars??? using car gas of course:rolleyes: Surely some of you guys up north have driven in sub-freezing weather. I bet at some point most of us have driven in sub-freezing temps. Anybody ever have frozen gas?????
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Good point.

From 2001 until this past May, my -6A project occupied my stall of the garage, leaving my car out in the driveway to face the brunt of Minnesota winters. Even when left out overnight when the temps dropped below -20 F, the cars ('95 Ford Probe, then later '01 Mustang) still started in the morning and ran fine - no problems.

Minnesota mandates 10% ethanol.
 
Fill one tank with 100% mogas and try it. If you have trouble switch to the other tank. My guess is there will be no issues. Make sure your FF fuel system is insulated from the heat, and the mechanical fuel pump has a blast tube on it. Sump your tanks every flying day and watch for water seperation during cold weather. I've burned over 5,000 gallons of mogas in aircraft engines.

JMHO.
 
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Cardinal is 7:1

frankh said:
This begs the question..What compression ratio are you running in the C177?

And if its 8.5:1 then why won't 87 octane fuel run in your RV...Vapour lock notwithstanding.

I know Rocketbob uses 87 octane in his RV...

Seems to me unless your getting detonation in your Cardinal that you don't know about then it should be perfectly fine in the RV..

Am I missing something?

Frank
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I think you are right. The Cardinal is 7:1. I think 87 would be fine as well, just don't want to go against Superior's recommendation.

What compression ratio does rocketbob have?
 
Rocketbob

I believe is running 8.5:1 but you had better check with him directly

Frank
 
Just a datapoint - Barrett says their 9:1 engines are still fine for 91 Octane. Almost all the engine builders agree that 8.5:1 is good for 91 Octane.
 
Poll results

i started this poll last year. the results show that 1/3 of the pollers are using something other than 100LL. this is a saving of about $1/ gal. 8 gal/hr= $8/hr x 2,000 hr tbo= $16,000 toward overhaul. not bad.
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