Bob Axsom

Well Known Member
At this time at least I do not intend to go to the round inlet self contained plenum because it seems to me that a lot of attention to detail has been given to the standard design (seal at the front end behind the spinner for example) and my seems to be working very well for all of the dependent systems. One area that has been giving me a little thought is the upper "ramps" that run from the aft end of the upper edge of the air inlets up to the inside of the upper cowl. I thought of closing in the inboard gap from the ramp to the cowl but I never did. I still wonder what the effect would have been. It would reduce the plenum volume and may do nothing the reduce cooling drag - on the other hand... Well that's why just wonder rather than doing something. What are the thermo and aero thoughts on closing off the area under the inlet "venturi" ramps?

Bob Axsom
 
can you post a pict or link to a pict of your inside cowl? I have some pinhole thoughts. :) the numbers on pinholes on the inner and outer upper cowl in 2 zillion and something. (did I do mine the way you're thinking? thought everybody did it THIS way. except the holy cowls? )

47891630818050154ry.jpg
 
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You are right

What your photo shows is exactly what I was/am considering. I would be very interested in your results especially if you are running a O-360-A1A with a non-blended airfoil Hartzell constant speed prop. At 75% power I typically see a true airspeed in the 171 - 173 kt range. When I flew back from Bartlesville Saturday I pushed it up to 2500 RPM at 5,500 OAT 23C and I was seeing a TAS of 176 kts. As you can see my plane is flirting with 200mph and I would like to teak it to reliably hit it. Driving up to Bella Vista (sounds like California but it really is a beautiful area in Northwest Arkansas) to the Chapter 732 meeting yesterday with my friend Barry West (ME from University of Arkansas and Masters specializing in Thermal from SMU) I asked him about the idea. He said it probably will not help anything and it will introduce a lot of unknowns that you will never understand without proper instrumentation. He said in a true plenum the velocity of the air is zero and changes to volume will affect the function. He felt there are probably performance gains to be made but they will require some formal development work to optimize performance. He went into the round inlets being the most efficient shape, etc. etc. which we have all heard before but one thing caught my ear was the statement the blending the side of the ramps to the cowl over a curved surface would probably be a step in the right direction. Your edge has a sharp break just like I was thinking about and in spite of what Barry says I would really like to see how yours performs.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob:

I have the configuration that you describe on my RV-8. I'm running a O-360 A1A, with balanced components and Airflow Fuel Injection. I am also equipped with a Hartzell blended airfoil 74" propeller. I do not have a self contained plenum, but I went to a good amount of effort and paid close attention to baffles and the inlet ramps. I did close off the inside edges of the inlet ramps as in the photo posted, however I used a radius about the size of a quarter.

My whole theory was to come as close in performance to using a separate plenum as possible while using the stock cowl setup by paying close atention to detail. I cannot compare a before and after with the closed off inlet ramps because I built it this way from the start. However, during the AirVenture Cup Race 2005 while running wide open at 2675 RPM my cylindwer head temps never got above 360 degrees. OAT was 37 degarres C, boy it was hot in that cockpit! My limiting factor was oil temerature, probably because I have a remote mounted oil cooler on the engine mount right behind and below the #4 cylinder. It is connected via a rather short 3" scat duct. When things get hot I can see 225-230 degree oil temps. The probelm seems to be the ineffecient scat duct, and the valoume of air not being ample to cool. I am planning making a custom duct to supply more air the the Stewart Warner 8406R oil cooler.

I conclude that I have plenty of cooling air, so a larger oil cooler duct will not be a problem. It's my thought that if the cooling inlet ramps had not been sealed off then it's likely that cylinder head temperatures would not be so manageable.

Several cooling drag seminars at OSH have suggested that the popular round air inlets commonly seen with most plenum istallattions are the result of the original design software being limited to just two dimensions. So I'm not quite sure that the round inlet is best for the cowling inlet; it's just the most common. But, that's a whole other topic for another post.

Anyway, just my .02c.

Sorry I did not get a chance to meet and speak with you during the race or at OSH this year.

Best Regards,
Jon Ross
Race 27 RV-8 N207RV
2005 First Place Formula RV Blue @203.26 MPH
 
Wow! Great Input!

Jon,

This is great feedback! During the race I made the stupid climb to 8,500 ft and really blew my speed. My oil cooler is hanging right on the rear baffel behing cylinder #4 - standard/easiest installation location. It is well braced so hopefully it will hold up. My oil temps were stable at approximately 200. During that race I was only running about 2550 RPM because some little testing I ran showed my speed peaked then "appeared" to drop off when I pushed it on up over 2600 RPM. Probably bad testing but if the weather holds up we are flying to Mesquite, Texas for the Cowhand 300 air race and I can get some more data. Your experience is very stimulating to "cut and try" the modification. Thanks for this very meaningful input.

Bob Axsom
 
What?

avpro56 said:
Several cooling drag seminars at OSH have suggested that the popular round air inlets commonly seen with most plenum installations are the result of the original design software being limited to just two dimensions. So I'm not quite sure that the round inlet is best for the cowling inlet; it's just the most common. But, that's a whole other topic for another post. Jon Ross
I disagree with you. If you ask Dave Anders-RV-4, Tracy Saylor RV-6, Dick Martin-RV-8 and Jankowski-RV-6 I think they will tell you the difference. NASA sponsored research, conducted by Mississippi State in the late 70's early 80's did flight test using a Piper Aztec. All the data was from flight-test not computers. Several inlets where tested. LoPresti was the first to market and used this data with his aftermarket cowl inlet kits.

(Ref.: An experimental investigation of the aerodynamics and cooling of a horizontally-opposed air-cooled aircraft engine installation, Miley, S. J.;

Practical flight test method for determining reciprocating engine cooling requirements - WARD D. T.;MILEY, S. J., Texas A and M University, College Station, Texas;

Effect of Propeller on Engine Cooling System Drag and Performance - Joseph Katz, Victor R. Corsiglia and Philip R. Barlow)

You are correct it is 3 dimensional flow and the rectangular shape is not great. If fact if you tuft your Vans cowl inlet you will see air flowing out the inboard edge of the cowl inlet. The prop has a large affect and next to the spinner the prop hub is a blunt club and beats the air to death. Further out towards the tip you get better pressures (Cp). Bottom line round is a pretty good shape for getting the required area as far outboard (away from the spinner) and staying in the cowl shape. Also the secret is not at the round ring, but behind in the "diffuser". With Vans cowl and baffle system you have large discontinuities in areas and abrupt edges. With a SJ cowl, being round it is easy to join the inlet ring to the plenum with a smooth flex duct clamped to the cowl inlet rings and plenum.

Plenum sealing is also a result of the NASA study. If you look at the transition from the cowl to the baffle and all the soft seals you will many places for leaks. A round inlet with a duct (diffuser) is completely sealed with clamps and is much more efficient. You have know idea how much you soft seal baffles leak at 200 mph. These are just a few reasons the inlet area of a round Sam James style cowl has inlet areas 30% to 35% less. Speed increase has been documented to be 6-10 mph on a RV. When Randy Lervold did a prop test and Van tested the same prop on the factory RV-8 with a 180HP engine. Randys RV was about 15mph faster under the same conditions.

I am using stock cowl with round inlet rings and solid / sealed plenum. So if you are going racing, by all means use the stock cowl and soft seal baffles so I can outrun you. :D G

PS Congrats on your first place finish; look forward to racing against you next year. Also Dick Martins RV-8, with SJ cowl, did 232 mph. Even though he is running a IO-390 and 210 HP(?), the extra HP did not make up the whole 20 MPH difference. What is interesting is a O-320 tailwind went 214mph. I guess winds where a factor, so it is hard to draw any conclusion about airframes, cowls or engines. Those who went low won. In the open Blue class a Glasair I went 242mph!
 
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What?

I disagree with you. If you ask Dave Anders-RV-4, Tracy Saylor RV-6, Dick Martin-RV-8 and Jankowski-RV-6 I think they will tell you the difference. NASA sponsored research, conducted by Mississippi State in the late 70's early 80's did flight test using a Piper Aztec. All the data was from flight-test not computers. Several inlets where tested. LoPresti was the first to market and used this data with his aftermarket cowl inlet kits.

(Ref.: An experimental investigation of the aerodynamics and cooling of a horizontally-opposed air-cooled aircraft engine installation, Miley, S. J.;

Practical flight test method for determining reciprocating engine cooling requirements - WARD D. T.;MILEY, S. J., Texas A and M University, College Station, Texas;

Effect of Propeller on Engine Cooling System Drag and Performance - Joseph Katz, Victor R. Corsiglia and Philip R. Barlow)

Controvesey is the spice of life. (or forum posts) what I said was that is was suggested, not what is. I was very caerful with my words. I will review the sources that you cite and comment.

You are correct it is 3 dimensional flow and the rectangular shape is not great. If fact if you tuft your Vans cowl inlet you will see air flowing out the inboard edge of the cowl inlet. The prop has a large affect and next to the spinner the prop hub is a blunt club and beats the air to death. Further out towards the tip you get better pressures (Cp). Bottom line round is a pretty good shape for getting the required area as far outboard (away from the spinner) and staying in the cowl shape. Also the secret is not at the round ring, but behind in the "diffuser". With Vans cowl and baffle system you have large discontinuities in areas and abrupt edges. With a SJ cowl, being round it is easy to join the inlet ring to the plenum with a smooth flex duct clamped to the cowl inlet rings and plenum.

I am familar with this subject area. However, it is true that the original rings were designed with 2D software. I also agree that a plenum is a more efficient way to cool an engine, and will reult in less drag. Less cooling air required = less drag. No doubt that soft seal baffles are leaky and cause a loss of efficiency and result in higher drag.

If you have photos or quantitative data regarding tufting in the area you cite, please post it heere so all can see and learn. I know that the GAMI guys have video of tufted Bonanza cowling areas in flight. I have not seen them, but would like to.

Plenum sealing is also a result of the NASA study. If you look at the transition from the cowl to the baffle and all the soft seals you will many places for leaks. A round inlet with a duct (diffuser) is completely sealed with clamps and is much more efficient. You have know idea how much you soft seal baffles leak at 200 mph. These are just a few reasons the inlet area of a round Sam James style cowl has inlet areas 30% to 35% less. Speed increase has been documented to be 6-10 mph on a RV. When Randy Lervold did a prop test and Van tested the same prop on the factory RV-8 with a 180HP engine. Randys RV was about 15mph faster under the same conditions.

I would like to see the comparative data on stock VS plenum configurations. Randy Lervold is a good friend, and to my knowledge he never raced his plane, and does not claim the speed increase that you cite as an average due the the plenum. However, I am very familiar with the propeller testing data that he did accomplish.

I am using stock cowl with round inlet rings and solid / sealed plenum. So if you are going racing, by all means use the stock cowl and soft seal baffles so I can outrun you. G

Where were you in 05? You might wish to review the data on the race. John Huft in his RV-8 came in behind me with an identical engine and prop but was equipped with a plenum and Sam James Cowl. You might want to ask John what he thinks of the Sam James Cowl, he has mixed feelings. Having said that, I feel his airplane is better than mine.

PS Congrats on your first place finish; look forward to racing against you next year. Also Dick Martins RV-8, with SJ cowl, did 232 mph. Even though he is running a IO-390 and 210 HP(?), the extra HP did not make up the whole 20 MPH difference. What is interesting is a O-320 tailwind went 214mph. I guess winds where a factor, so it is hard to draw any conclusion about airframes, cowls or engines. Those who went low won. In the open Blue class a Glasair I went 242mph!

You leave out the fact the Dick Martin ran out of gas and had to stop at the finish line. I know, I was there; Dick was unable to recover in Fond Du Lac because of fuel issues. Dick was put into another class because of the displacement of his engine.

Red Hamilton's Tailwind did very well at 214 MPH. He did run his O-320 at 3100 RPM, which made it put out considerably more power. The Tailwind is still a very, very good design that can be built on a budget.

The AirVenture Cup race is about camaraderie and skill as much as it is about fast airplanes. I?ve made a few new friends, and it was a great experience to take part in the race with Red Hamilton, Dick Martin, John Huft and many others.

Jon Ross
 
Plain Vanila Plenum speed data

I have the stock baffle plenum configuration well sealed with the good red RTV from Aircraft Spruce (everywhere there is a metal to metal interface is sealed - EVERYWHERE!). The rubber seals are the standard seal material supplied by vans. I have a big hole in the aft baffel over cylinder #3 for the heat/defrost system and the oil cooler hole is similarly located over cylinder #4 - there are no other unsealed baffle penetrations. The engine is a Lycoming O-360-A1A and the prop is the non-blended airfoil Hartzell C/S. I have a custom thin aluminum lap cover over the leading edge of the cowl covering the split and taking the front end separation load off of the hinges (dimpled for screws - two on the outside attaching the upper and lower cowl together with this aluminum cover and one inside the inlet for both the upper and lower cowl halfs.)

Today Barry West and I had to fly under U.S. Air Race rules to establish our handicap for the race on Sunday. The rules state:

- Set altimeter to barometric setting of 29.92 (pressure altitude). Climb to 6,000' pressure altitude. Observe the actual outside air temperature (OAT). On a standard day it should be 3C/38F. Calculate the difference between the actual OAT in Centigrade and 3C. Descend 100 feet for each degree C that the OAT is above 3C (60 feet for each degree above 38F) or, climb the same amount if the OAT is below standard. Summer example: OAT at 6,000' is 27C, once your altimeter is set to 29.92, you will fly at an indicated pressure altitude of 3,600' in order to achieve flying at a density altitude od 6,000'. Equation is 6000'-((27C-3C)x100=3600'. [we read 22C so our handicap flights were at 4,100ft]
- Flight must be made at full throttle and full RPF for constant speed prop. Lean engine to BEST POWER per the aircraft's POH. Flaps must be full up, cowl closed, airconditioner in "off" position, ram air open, and anything protruding into the airstream retracted (vents on some aircraft).
- Aircraft must be trimmed to "hands off" level flight. Autopilot altitude/heading hold may now be used.
- Maintain level flightand fly 360 degrees until 5 consistent GPS readings are obtained. Readings should be taken every 20 seconds. The readings should not vary more than one knot. Record the readings.
Good examples: 171, 170, 171, 170, 170, 170 or 173, 172, 171, 171, 171, 170, 171 (last five are good)
Bad examples: 171, 173, 175, 173, 171 or 170, 172, 173, 170, 168
- Turn to 240 degrees and repeat the process.
- Turn to 120 degrees and repeat the process
- Add the 15 good readings together and divide by 15 to two decimal places. This is your OPTIMAL SPEED and is your HANDICAP.

Our results today complying with these rules gave us an optimal speed of 170.66kts or 196.39 MPH.

That could be used as a plain vanila cowl & plenum 6,000 ft density altitude speed. I would be greatly surprized if running a hose nose into a small hard plenum gives the magnitude of speed gains expected with no other power enhancing mods. Not only would I be suprised - I would probably modify my cowl and plenum. I am inclined to go with the rounded closure of the upper cowl inlet ramp.

Bob Axsom
 
So when are you buying or modifiying a new cowl

Bob Axsom said:
That could be used as a plain vanila cowl & plenum 6,000 ft density altitude speed. I would be greatly surprized if running a hose nose into a small hard plenum gives the magnitude of speed gains expected with no other power enhancing mods. Not only would I be suprised - I would probably modify my cowl and plenum. I am inclined to go with the rounded closure of the upper cowl inlet ramp. Bob Axsom
Be surprised. As far as leaks get a mirror and look just inside the cowl lip, at the upper corners, inboard and outboard. You will see gaps. I know this gets a little touchy because it sounds like I am saying Van's cowl is bad. Look at the performance numbers LoPresti gets from his Mooney, Grumman Tiger, Piper mods, about 5 MPH. That is a pretty conservative number. Also remember the RV is already going fast so there is more cooling drag to be saved.

The speeds you mention are good but are in line with a stock RV according to Van's numbers (200-204mph at 75% pwr @ 8,000'). There is room for improvement with the cowl and baffles. You can add HP or lower drag. Cooling drag is the one big-ticket item there to be had. There is real flight test data showing the increased efficiency of moving the inlets outboard, making the duct (diffuser) smooth. If you took cross sections of vans cowl and baffle system you would see large transitions in shape and areas. This causes internal turbulence and drag. Think of your cowl inlet and exit as an inside out wing. You can be in denial but there is not argument that reducing drag will add speed. Van's cowl does not have as good of details as a SJ style cowl. Further you are reducing the inlet area by a third and still cooling the engine and therefore..... it is not rocket science you go faster. Would you leave you wheel pants off and loose 5 mph? Bob if you put a hose nose on, as you say and put a sealed hard top plenum on, I know you will gain speed, but it is your plane. If you are into racing you will have a disadvantage to other RV's with this NASA inspired cooling system. You talk of Handicap racing. They don't call it Handicap for nothing. If you want all out performance and heads up racing cooling mods do reduce drag. G
 
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Don't do it.

avpro56 wrote: I am familiar with this subject area. However, it is true that the original rings were designed with 2D software.
(Well yes the inlet rings are based on the laminar flow A-10 series which is a 2D shape. However when talking engineering of round ducts and fluid dynamics closed form solutions have been known of decades. This is not new stuff. Also the flight tested it with instrumentation galore. Plus they used solid well know basic aerodynamic fluid flow theories.)

avpro56 wrote: Less cooling air required = less drag. No doubt that soft seal baffles are leaky and cause a loss of efficiency and result in higher drag.
(Proven by the NASA study at Miss State and a Piper Aztec, you don't have to guess if you look at the data)


avpro56 wrote: If you have photos or quantitative data regarding tufting in the area you cite, please post it here so all can see and learn. I know that the GAMI guys have video of tufted Bonanza cowling areas in flight. I have not seen them, but would like to.
(Geeee you want everything. I was an aerospace consultant and made about$128/hr before I started flying for a living. I will be glad to give you all my race secrets for a fee. :D No really it was published in the RVator many years ago. Look you have a stagnation point just inside the inlet. The prop blast is so great on the out board edge of the horizontally orientated rectangular inlet, verses the inboard edge, which has a negative Cp. Meaning air will flow to the low pressure and right back out the cowl. This is well known stuff. I think you all think I make this up. Look at the NASA report. I can?t do all the work. Having an engineering degree and working in the Aerospace industry helps me be able to read these documents, but it is not hard if you try. Before I committed to the idea of modifying my cowl for my RV, I researched it. I also did my own test on my old RV-4 with a stock cowl. I blocked off the inner edge of my cowl with shaped foam blocks and speed tape, reducing the inlet area. The result was almost no cooling change and may be 1-2 mph. It is too hard to measure small speed changes between flights and conditions, but it showed the inner edge was not doing much cooling. If fact as I say air flows out because of the props pressure gradient (coefficient of pressure Cp). This reverse flow causes plume drag as it interferes with the free air stream. The idea was not to show speed increase but affect on cooling. Again the transition from Van?s cowl inlet in to the cooling plenum are too abrupt, diverging angles too great and sharp corners to give smooth non turbulent, low drag airflow. Again thing of the are flowing thru you cowl like air flowing over you wing. All this is well known, but cooling systems where neglected. In the 40's mass research was done on cooling of WWII fighter's piston engines (radials and inline), but it stopped when jets came along. It was not till some 35 years later more work on cooling drag was done on horizontal opposed engines such as we have. Even still more work could be done. The LoPresti/SJ cowl are reflections of what was learned. Not that these are perfect examples of the concepts and theories, they are better than what was done in the past.)


avpro56 wrote: I would like to see the comparative data on stock VS plenum configurations. Randy Lervold is a good friend, and to my knowledge he never raced his plane, and does not claim the speed increase that you cite as an average due the plenum. However, I am very familiar with the propeller testing data that he did accomplish.
(Randy as you know has prop tests on his site. Van worked with Randy in testing props. As a scale factor van used the speeds for the props that where tested on both Randy's and Van's prototype to compare relative speeds and scale results on other props. Randy's plane was much faster than vans with the same HP and prop. This was published in the RVator a year ago. Look at the speed randy got and what Van published. You will see this handicap if you will. Randy has a SJ cowl. How much of the 14mph can be contributed? Randy has electronic ignition but 14 mph? Is Van's RV-8 slow? No the absolute speed was at target or specification nominal speed or more for a 180hp RV-8. My conjecture is the only major difference is the cowl, thus may account for some of this speed advantage. Even of it was half of the 14 mph it would be significant.)


avpro56 wrote: Where were you in 05? You might wish to review the data on the race. John Huft in his RV-8 came in behind me with an identical engine and prop but was equipped with a plenum and Sam James Cowl. You might want to ask John what he thinks of the Sam James Cowl, he has mixed feelings. Having said that, I feel his airplane is better than mine.
(I was building and working. John who? I understand the winds where a factor during a race. Pilot skill comes in to play. It is racing after all. Some guys get lost. My 150hp RV-4 use to clean up 160 hp and a few 180 hp RV's. No one is claiming the SJ cowl and plenum will make your RV go 250 mph. It might make it go 6-10 mph faster. Now why are some RV's slow? Weight, fit and finish, alignment rigging? who knows.)


avpro56 wrote: You leave out the fact the Dick Martin ran out of gas and had to stop at the finish line. I know, I was there; Dick was unable to recover in Fond Du Lac because of fuel issues. Dick was put into another class because of the displacement of his engine.
(Yea I know about the large engine but he is going much faster than a 200 hp RV-8, at least in other races. It is not all engine making him go faster. I estimated the cowl was worth about 6 mph on his plane, which is reasonable, gas burn a side, which has nothing to do with the cowl. You forgot to mention he beat you by 20 mph. :eek: )

avpro56 wrote: Red Hamilton's Tailwind did very well at 214 MPH. He did run his O-320 at 3100 RPM, which made it put out considerably more power. The Tailwind is still a very, very good design that can be built on a budget.
(Yea, still he whooped ass. We can turn 3100 also. Hell 2700-3100 is only 20 hp. They still would be going +205 mph on a stock O-320, 160 hp. All is fair in love, war and racing. I guess handicap racing will eliminate this but why bother. In the end he went 11 mph faster than the fastest RV with 20 cu-in more engine displacement. Racing is racing, and you can't draw all kinds of conclusions except one, someone finished faster or slower.)

In conclusion do not use a SJ, LoPresti style cowl on your RV so I can win some more races. G
 
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I take evolutionary steps thanks

I want to win but on the other hand once you have won the fun is gone. Right now I just want to make my plane a little faster and modifying the underside of the upper cowl seems like a reasonable thing to do. Replacing my cowl and putting in a cooling flow system which may or may not include a plenum does not seem like a reasonable thing to do. Doing a modification on my airplane with my own hands based on the good feedback I received in this thread and being able to measure the difference in performance against a benchmark established by me in this airplane is very meaningful. Enjoy your winning, I certainly will enjoy my racing. It is enough for me to strap in and be part of the chase.

Bob Axsom
 
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43036505harmonrockets430051989.jpg


buy you a cup of coffee if you can tell me which is/will be the fastest, or was the fastest.
 
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100 unknowns

mark manda said:
buy you a cup of coffee if you can tell me which is/will be the fastest, or was the fastest.
It is like asking what the answer is with 100 variables and two equations, no solution possible, however to answer your question the Rocket. (Super grande mocha coca freaking frappa lattee cino please!) G :D

Seriously:

The first is a stock RV in progress. Is that your handy work Mark?

The Red and White with the round inlets and standard soft seal plenum is not great, since just past the cowl there is no transition or diffuser. The most important part is kust past the inlet. This is like how Piper and I think Lancair do it. It works but it is not optimum. Like a rectangle inlet, there is an abrupt transistion, edges and area, where the air will just go turbulent and cause drag. However those are the most pretty soft baffle seals I have ever seen and they look like they are as good as you can get. Special attention was payed on the sides front near the inlet. Even this excllent work will have a little leakage around the very front near the inlet. However most (including myself) don't have the time and skill to make a soft baffle look this good. That is where a sealed hard plenum top is easy to make a perfect seal and transition (diffuser).

The blue RV-6/7A looks like a stock SJ cowl plenum painted pretty. A complete system with decent transitions and leak free. The turbo RV-8 also looks like a SJ cowl.

Rotary RV-4, no comment. Experiment in progress.

The Red & white/silver stripe plane with the rectangle inlet. What do you think the air is doing just on the lip of the cowl (inboard edge) going into the baffle? There are no transitions. It just dumps into the baffle. Plus the prop gov is not helping.

Last picture, Rocket in progress? This will be the fastest at sea level when the engine, prop and wings are installed.
 
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here's a pict of a HR-II rocket with rounded openings.
48596406eaaflyin0037rp.jpg


in response to your explanations-- right, first one is mine. BTW- the six banger with the round openings with the nice baffles you mentioned; ARL grand champion. as soon as I got home I flushed mounted MY baffles. :) to try to take his design one step further.

affirmative, concur with the rest of your descriptions but can't buy you a coffee.
 
welsh welshing welsher?

mark manda said:
affirmative, concur with the rest of your descriptions but can't buy you a coffee.
I don't know what flush mount baffles means, and you "CAN'T" buy me a coffee. :(

As fas pictures I have hundreds of pictures of cowls, baffles and plenums, having gone to Oshkosh & sun-N-fun 10-12 times.

PS Folks have a very myopic view of this subject and some, not all, think punching round holes in a cowl is magic. It is NOT. You have to look at the whole picture from the free airstream outside the inlet, through the inlet, diffuser, plenums (hi/lo) and exit, until it reaches the free airstream again, outside the cowl exit. Every part is critical.

There is magic to be had but don't miss read me and think that I am saying round or the SJ cowl / plenum is the only way to go, but it is a clever interpretation of the known principles and installation issues in an aircooled horz opposed engine. In fact I would not buy a SJ cowl / plenum and decided to make my own out of a stock cowl, because there are a few areas I feel are not ideal but it close. If I wanted to keep rectangle inlet shape I would modify the cowl to improve some of its weak points and limitations, which the stock installation has. I would reduce the inlet area and block the inboard area off (near the spinner). I would also use a complete seal around the perimeter between the cowl inlet flange to baffle inlet ramp, with no discontinuity, joggles, abrupt edges or lips. I would no doubt S-can the soft seal idea, as this is old school, and go with a solid upper plenum cover. (This not only reduces leaks but it also allows a better 360 degree seal between cowl and engine; plus it takes the pressure off the cowl and cowl pins/hinges.) I think by reducing inlet area and making better seals and transitions with in the cowl the affect could approach the SJ/round inlet and pick up at least a few MPH. Again round is just easy to seal with a flex duct and hose clamps, and it also gets the most area as far outboard as possible where the prop wash is more desirable, therefore you can reduce inlet area more. These are facts and as far as buying what I am saying I don?t care if you agree or do it on your plane. In fact I prefer if you don't do it. :eek:

G
 
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The transition from the inlet to the plenum

What are the thoughts on the configuration of the inlet between the leading edge and the plenum. The stock design has a VERY nice looking airfoil (call it inverted if you like) from the upper inlet suface to the inside of the upper cowl. Does this cause an accelleration of the air entering the cowl? Is there data on the actual performance of the flat sided rubber cylinders in the favored round inlet port cowls and independent plenums? It seems to me that the flat sided cylinder inlet is not the optimum configuration for this application. Prop paddle pumping these rubber cylinders appears to be a brute force way to get sufficient air into the plenum to perform the cooling work though small inlet ports with minimum wetted area per opening area. The higher the pressure the higher the air temperature. H-m-m-m-m OK I don't have the answer yet but the only advantages I can see for the hose to the closed box configuration are good front end seal, minimum inlet wetted area per inlet cross section area. I am going to round the inboard edges and close off the sides of the airfoils behind the upper inlet and see what I get from that. I believe the rubber baffel seals around the plenum may be much more effective than you think and the leaks that do occur are are a small fraction of that which goes out the heater, and oil cooler, mag blast tubes and alternator blast tube ports. It would be interesting to do a test with a plate over the heater port in the rear baffel to see if there is any speed gain available from capping this air gusher in the summer.

Bob Axsom
 
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Not quite

Bob Axsom said:
It would be interesting to do a test with a plate over the heater port in the rear baffle to see if there is any speed gain available from this capping this air gusher in the summer. Bob Axsom
Good thought Bob but not that easy. First blocking you oil cooler is not going to be acceptable to oil temps. Also unless you also reduce the cowl inlet area you will have the same drag (read below why). For the aircraft speed, engine-cooling requirements there is the correct cooling area. The cowl inlet is a compromise for climb and cruise requirements on say a 100F day (+41F std day). What if in fact you could adjust the inlet area in-flight like you can with exit cowl flaps; you could reduce drag and optimize the inlet for all phases of flight. It has been done but never caught on. Also think of this, a banner towing plane with the same engine, prop, oil cooler as a RV will have a different inlet / cooling design (much larger) than a +200 mph RV.


NASA's study determined or discovered the optimal ratio of air velocity in the free airstream to the speed in the cowl inlet. THIS IS WHY BLOCKING THE COOLER WILL NOT CHANGE THE DRAG, BECAUSE YOUR INLET (and exit) IS THE SAME. You can control this Velocity ratio by clever design of the cowl inlet area, shape and internal contours aft of the inlet. If the inlet area is too big you have too much drag and high internal losses from high internal velocities. If it is too small the stagnation point moves outside the inlet and will cause "spillage drag", where air comes to a stop and than spills out around the inlet. This deceleration of the air and re-mixing with the free stream air is draggy. You want free air to decelerate and go into the cowl not decelerate outside the cowl, due to a poor sized / shaped cowl inlet. By taking the cooler air away as you suggest you will not change the fact that the Van's inlet area is X, which is already more than needed. You may put more are thru the cylinder'(s) blocking the cooler, but CHT's will suffer from higher oil temps. Really air to the oil cooler is needed and will not help the cause. Using external air from another source and sumping that into the lower cowl is bad and will produce more drag, don't do that.

Also it is true Van has a cool "trick" curved surface at the top of the cowl inlet inside the cowl. I know I installed it on my RV-4. This will reduce cooling drag. However like you point out you have flat surface on the other boundaries and corners with soft seals that may leak and a diverging area and lips/edges too great to allow smooth (non-turbulent) air flow. What happens when your wing has turbulent flow? Ans: Loss of lift (pressure) and a sharp rise in drag.

Van's stock cowl takes advantage of some good details not found on the current GA planes of the day. The cowl inlets have a large outside radius and a flange that extends back a little to meet the upper cowl ramp and lower baffle ramp. However the sides are not ideal. The stock cowl is good enough as is; It just could be better, about 6-10 mph better. I think saying a SJ style cowl and plenum is a little better is fighting words to some. Vans' cowl is very good but there is room for improvement. Also Van's origninal ideas of simple fun sport planes did not see digital CRT computer monitors on the engine. Running a tighter cowl does take a little caution in pilot operations. Because the RV is so fast and climbs fast we don't get into too much problems. However in the summer, fully loaded and climbing with not pause to 10,000 feet might cause some grief, no matter what cowl you have or baffle seals.

OIL COOLERS
As far blocking the oil cooler, the mass air flow thru the cooler is not that great, and it needs about the same pressure as the engine to be efficent. This is why the SW coolers are more efficent, they are a better match and more efficent at the air flow/pressure under the cowl of a real plane not a test stand. Oil cooler installation misconceptions are pet peeve of mine. I hate the hard mount to the #4 back baffle set up because it's hard on the cooler and baffle but works kind of, but it could be better. Next to this, my pet peeve is a bad remote oil cooler installations. Remote is OK but Van's oil cooler kit is terrible. That flat little square box on the cooler in Van's kit is bad bad bad. All that applies to cowl inlets and cooling: smooth surfaces, no sharp edges, min diverging side angles, applies to the oil cooler installation. Bad oil cooler installations usually result in high oil temps not much more drag. Also the cooler exit air is rarely addressed in cooler installations. Builders just dump the cooler air out any old place. However some drag reduction can be had with cooler installation by efficiently using the available air. This in turn could allow a smaller cowl inlet. It is part of the whole cooling system. The engine and cooler needs (MUST HAVE) a certain amount of airflow and pressure to cool. The more efficient (less drag) the whole system is, the less air you need, the smaller the inlets, the less drag.


COWL EXIT
The one area not mentioned it the cowl exit. Van's little firewall rolled edge above the top of the cowl exit on the RV-8 is pretty min. The other RV's like the RV-6 and -7 don't even get this supplied. This is a place you can improve and (reduce) cooling drag. There is a lot to do in the cowl exit area. I will leave it to the reader?s imagination and research to figure out how to improve this area, which is critcal.


LEAKS ARE BAD
Side note: The less leaks you have the better. Leaks that pressurize the lower plenum do a double whammy. Leaking air into the lower cowl is air not cooling the engine and is pressurizing the lower cowl, reducing differential pressure from top to bottom across the cylinders, reducing the cooling. All this is inefficient. Making larger inlets to keep temps in line to make up for leaks is part of the cooling drag big picture. Cooling drag is not one thing like round inlets. A SJ cowl has the same temps with 1/3rd less inlet area as Van's cowl! Do the math, this is less drag.

INLET AREA
The required cowl inlet area for cooling is a matter of known formulas of air volume and pressure for a give amount of HP. The required inlet area from these equations is usually pumped up. GA planes need to account for pilot ham-handed-ness, too long climbs and inefficiencies of the system. Also most GA planes did not come with 8 channel engine monitors. Why do Pipers and Cessna's go so much slower than a RV? Many reasons including cooling drag. To be fair to Piper and Cessna they have to be conservative.

SHAPE IS KEY
Inlet shape is another matter. This is an area that has got little or no attention on GA planes (until the NASA study). On WWII birds they did all kinds of work on the cowl shapes and spinner shapes to guide the air to the engine and out, with the least drag. In the NASA sponsored research (70's/80's) for our little Horz engines, they used laminar flow "A" series NASA airfoils to shape the inlet. If you "trip" the air from the start you are screwed.

Now you are going to try to take air going 210 mph and slow it down and convert it into pressure at a certain flow over a range of air-speeds, you would want to do it smoothly with out turbulence. Turbulence is drag and loss of pressure, right. Is the current style SJ cowl the greatest? No, but it is better than Van's cowl, which is already pretty good and way better than an old Cessna / Piper.

THERE IS NO SINGLE ANSWER
Look at the research, it only gives you data and suggestions, it does not specify a design or size the hardware for a RV. Yes certain shapes and inlets where tested but not ever one. In fact NASA only worked on the inlet, sealed plenums and never test flew or optimized the rest of the ducting/diffuser. The work was left somewhat unfinished, but they did make observations and suggestions. The soft hoses that connect the cowl inlet to the plenum was unique to the origninal Barnard "Holy Cowl" was which is now made and sold by Sam James. This may not be the first time this whole system done like this, but was the first time I had seen it and no doubt the first time on a RV. I think compaired to LoPresti, Lancair and others Barnard's original design is the best application of the concepts I have discussed based on the NASA studies. I can't think of much to improve it except the actual ring profile (which I think SJ as a little of in area and shape, but not sure) and small tuning in plenum shape, cross section and volume.


In the past Piper and Cessna had openings with sharp edges, although the state of the art Piper Apache Twin (first light twin for the general public) had a pressure plenum with a fabric / felt pad seal to the cowl. In fact the Apache also had exhaust augmentor tubes to increase cooling. I owned one and could cruise +160mph on about 13 gph. Of course this is a five place plane with a cabin you could stand up in (slightly bent over) and step between the two front seats to the back seats. It is not like a little Piper Seminol. Not bad for 1958. With about 108 gal of gas you could fly a long time.

There is nothing that is perfect, but if you understand basic aerodynamic requirements and requirements for the airframe and engine you can minimize cooling drag. Cooling drag is a large part of the total drag of a RV, so it makes sense to go after it. Just blocking off the oil cooler will not do much and of course your oil temps will suffer. You still have to meet requirements of the design. What about a variable shape / area cowl inlet? Well that is too much for me. If I can pick up a sure 6-10 mph with the simple change and avoid cutting soft seals, the modification to the stock cowl is worth it to me.

G
 
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Focus

I proposed a test to block the heater hole in the rear baffel not the oil cooler hole. You provided a lot of information that makes sense and you have stimulated my thinking in more than one area - I like that. Thanks!

Bob Axsom
 
Cab heat

Bob Axsom said:
I proposed a test to block the heater hole in the rear baffel not the oil cooler hole. You provided a lot of information that makes sense and you have stimulated my thinking in more than one area - I like that. Thanks!Bob Axsom
Yes Bob sorry I mis read, you said heater port. I think the result (lower drag higher speed) might be too small to measure. You might see a drop in CHT or Oil temps. G
 
Round Inlets

gmcjetpilot said:
THERE IS NO SINGLE ANSWER
Look at the research, it only gives you data and suggestions, it does not specify a design or size the hardware for a RV. Yes certain shapes and inlets where tested but not ever one. In fact NASA only worked on the inlet, sealed plenums and never test flew or optimized the rest of the ducting/diffuser. The work was left somewhat unfinished, but they did make observations and suggestions. The soft hoses that connect the cowl inlet to the plenum was unique to the origninal Barnard "Holy Cowl" was which is now made and sold by Sam James. This may not be the first time this whole system done like this, but was the first time I had seen it and no doubt the first time on a RV. I think compaired to LoPresti, Lancair and others Barnard's original design is the best application of the concepts I have discussed based on the NASA studies. I can't think of much to improve it except the actual ring profile (which I think SJ as a little of in area and shape, but not sure) and small tuning in plenum shape, cross section and volume.
G

I'd like to add something on this topic. Regarding the round inlets.
a few years ago while shopping for a RV-6....long story, but I wound up talking the Steve Barnard. Not really knowing or appreaciating who I was talking in the the RV world at the time. One thing I remember him telling me about the round inlets was Nasa had done the research on the design as George said and as Bob talked about the airfoil shape, although inverted, was critical to the design working properly. Steve said many people were copying the round inlet without paying attention to the airfoil shape. For example, I see the Columbia 400 line has the shape molded into the cowl and doesn't have a "ring" like the SJ holy cowl. For the record and those that don't know, Steve Barnard sold the holy cowl stuff to Sam James for him to continue marketing. So seems to me, if your trying to improve the inlet design, the SJ products are the way to go.
Hope this helps!
Bob Martin RV-6