scard

scard

Well Known Member
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At LOE 2010, I saw way too many RV -A pilots that I know and respect blasting down the runway, either landing or taking off, with the nose gear firmly planted and the elevator centered. Come on guys, pick the nose up! There is no excuse.
 
scard said:
At LOE 2010, I saw way too many RV -A pilots that I know and respect blasting down the runway, either landing or taking off, with the nose gear firmly planted and the elevator centered. Come on guys, pick the nose up! There is no excuse.
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Thank you, Scott. I have noticed the same exact thing, even on grass strips. I was at Triple Tree last year and was cringing as I watched several RV-XA's come and go while hopping rides. Mains hit and nose hits less than a second later.
 
!?!

Wow. That surprises me. After seeing the pictures of these lovely planes on their back, I can't help but keep that stick back... Landed in Arco ID yesterday, and I didn't really like the pavement at all...

Hans
 
So you landed at Arco, Idaho and your screen name is "nucleus." If I had not see your chiropractic link I would have bet you were in nuclear power! I was stationed at the Naval Reactors facility near Arco in the mid 1970's. I think a few others on the forum were students or instructors there too.
 
Scott is so right!!

At the Coolidge AZ fly-in this past weekend, my 9A was video taped as I landed keeping the nose gear off for the entire stretch of runway until the turnoff. At that point, I eased it onto the runway like I was landing on beach sand.

I saw too many others who just flopped the nose and seemed content.

After 240 hours, a more robust nose gear is the only change I'd make to an otherwise great airplane. It's responsive, fast, fuel efficient, and the best part is I built it myself, and can service it myself too.

The grin NEVER wears off.

Barry
Tucson
 
PLACARD

I think ALL nose wheel GA airplanes should have a mandatory placard that states "WHILE DOING LANDING ROLL OUT AND TAXIING, YOKE/STICK MUST BE FULL AFT"

Steve Barnes "The Builders Coach"
 
I sit on the bench in front of our EAA Chapter club house watching CFIs shooting touch and goes with their students. It's no wonder few of them know how to land airplanes. One instructor's students do pretty good, but a couple of others wheel barrow them on every landing, with no correction being demonstrated.
 
hngrflyr said:
I sit on the bench in front of our EAA Chapter club house watching CFIs shooting touch and goes with their students. It's no wonder few of them know how to land airplanes. One instructor's students do pretty good, but a couple of others wheel barrow them on every landing, with no correction being demonstrated.
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This is a HUGE part of why I'm actively working on getting my CFI. I have a passion, and a "real" job, such that I can direct my passion in a useful direction.
 
Scott,
Just out of curiosity, how many of these pilots did you walk up to and talk to them about their landing technique? I only ask because I think everyone on VAF knows about this topic and it's discussed quite frequently.
 
scard said:
At LOE 2010, I saw way too many RV -A pilots that I know and respect blasting down the runway, either landing or taking off, with the nose gear firmly planted and the elevator centered. Come on guys, pick the nose up! There is no excuse.
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Just as a note which may be why you observed this was when I landed on Sat around 11:30 the wind was around 15G20, if you keep the nose up to much in these conditions you're asking to go flying again when you don't want too.

When we left later that afternoon it was around 18G23 if I recall. I personally will let the nose down in very windy condition but will keep the weight off it with some aft stick, but not full aft stick, get it to high and you're flying when you don't want to be.
 
Walt said:
Just as a note which may be why you observed this was when I landed on Sat around 11:30 the wind was around 15G20, if you keep the nose up to much in these conditions you're asking to go flying again when you don't want too.

When we left later that afternoon it was around 18G23 if I recall. I personally will let the nose down in very windy condition but will keep the weight off it with some aft stick, but not full aft stick, get it to high and you're flying when you don't want to be.
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It still sounds like bad technique to me Walt. I have landed in 25G40 (down the runway thankfully) and still held the nose off as long as possible... Higher nose means higher angle of attack which means the wing stays stalled right? If you have a strong headwind then you get to set the nose down at a lower ground speed.

I am no super pilot, so please correct me if I am wrong.


Hans
 
nucleus said:
Higher nose means higher angle of attack which means the wing stays stalled right?
Hans
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Not in gusty conditions. Trying for a full stall landing in gusty conditions is risky business. If it's really gusty it's a lot safer to fly 'er to the runway and land nearly flat, fragile nosewheel not withstanding. I believe this is true for tailwheels as well.
 
One big reason you see a lot of flat landings is a lot of RV pilots are afraid to slow the airplane down on short final and are touching down way too fast. The A models do really nice nose high full stall touchdowns when slowed properly. Plus with full aft stick you can hold the nosewheel off for a long time. With gusty conditions or crosswind I land three point in my 7. i want it all done flying when I touch down. I'll add half the gust factor but no more than that. Don
 
I agree, Scott

scard said:
This is a HUGE part of why I'm actively working on getting my CFI. I have a passion, and a "real" job, such that I can direct my passion in a useful direction.
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I became a CFI back in '69 and taught for 10 years and let it lapse for a few years but I really missed it. I renewed it when a friend wanted to start taking flying lessons and as I get older and hopefully, somewhat wiser, I value the opportunity more than I used to, in my younger days.

Passing on your knowledge will give a big amount of satisfaction, Scott,

Best of luck with your effort,
 
XWind Landing at LOE

I, like Mr Aronow, let my nose down as soon as I could due to the strong gusty crosswind at 2pm Saturday when I landed. Keep that nose up high in strong, +20 gusts, and you may loose directional control.
Did I get any comments after landing? You bet, nothing else was going on and there were a lot of JUDGES watching.
Scott, good luck with getting your CFI and imposing your methods on the flying community.
During a BFR a few years ago, with over 400 hours in my 6A, the CFI didn't care for my forward slip technique with a 40 degree crosswind. He wanted me to crab all the way to the numbers then kick it straight, I prefer to keep the nose centered on the stripe. Tried one, just about re-kitted the plane, but the CFI was HAPPY. Care to guess how I make crosswind landings today after 1000+ hours?
I only spent 1 day at LOE and there sure seemed to be a lot of judging and critiquing going on, not just on the 9A debacle either.
 
mrreddick said:
I, like Mr Aronow, let my nose down as soon as I could due to the strong gusty crosswind at 2pm Saturday when I landed. Keep that nose up high in strong, +20 gusts, and you may loose directional control.
Did I get any comments after landing? You bet, nothing else was going on and there were a lot of JUDGES watching.
Scott, good luck with getting your CFI and imposing your methods on the flying community.
During a BFR a few years ago, with over 400 hours in my 6A, the CFI didn't care for my forward slip technique with a 40 degree crosswind. He wanted me to crab all the way to the numbers then kick it straight, I prefer to keep the nose centered on the stripe. Tried one, just about re-kitted the plane, but the CFI was HAPPY. Care to guess how I make crosswind landings today after 1000+ hours?
I only spent 1 day at LOE and there sure seemed to be a lot of judging and critiquing going on, not just on the 9A debacle either.
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Mike, I'm sorry you took offense to my post. I certainly wasn't talking about high wind landings on Sat. as I spent almost no time watching departing and arriving traffic. I was enjoying myself talking to people on the ramp instead. I know as well as anyone that wind conditions can make for additional challenges. My comments were sparked during near calm wind conditions Friday afternoon and early Sunday morning. It sounds like you've had some bad experiences with CFIs and now have something against them wanting to acquire credentials to be able to pass along useful information. That is too bad. They aren't all bad and trying to impose on anyone.
 
I only spent 1 day at LOE and there sure seemed to be a lot of judging and critiquing going on, not just on the 9A debacle either.
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An aviation tradition. May as well try to ban green headsets.

A long time ago I was a junior Piper airplane salesman. Part of my job was prospecting at small airports, a business term for flying around the state and shooting the s....um, breeze with the front porch crowd. Found out the rules right quick.....if I landed short, slow, and slick I got a tour of all the cool things at the airport. Screw it up and I couldn't get much past directions to the bathroom.
 
Be the Master

There's a difference between commanding the nose gear onto the pavement and letting the nose go there of it's own accord. In tricycle gear aircraft, the center of gravity is ahead of the mains. So when you touch down on the mains (and you should always touch down on the mains--a "flat" landing is often an unrecognized nose-wheel first landing) the momentum of the aircraft naturally brings down the nose.

Most inexperienced--and some experienced buy lazy--pilots simply allow the airplane to do what it wants to do...release the back pressure, and let the nose gear slam onto the pavement. You can get away with this in an Cessna. But it's sloppy technique and in my view is an indication that the pilot is willing to give up and stop flying the airplane.

So if you want to be the master of the aircraft, you have to decide way out there on downwind at what airspeed you plan to touchdown at and when you plan to lower the nose. And then do as you planned--holding the aircraft in the landing attitude at touchdown and then commanding the nose down.

If it's gusty enough that you want to change your normal habit pattern, you're probably landing in a non-standard configuration--maybe with no flaps so you can have more control at a higher airspeed. So you're still entering the flare at about 1.2 Vs1, but that's a higher indicated airspeed than 1.2 Vso. You're probably also still lowering the nose at about 0.9 Vs1--again at a higher airspeed than Vso with flaps.

The key is the faster airspeed for more control vs. TLARing it. Remember, a lower deck angle with no flaps is still a higher AoA than a higher deck angle with flaps. So while it may seem like you're putting the nose down sooner, it's still at the same AoA. And I would never allow the nose gear to slam itself onto the runway vs. deliberatly placing the nose where you want it.

I don't think there's much issue in keeping the nose gear up after touchdown in gusty conditions provided you touched down at the planned airspeed--you'll still have plenty of directional control (especially with a big RV rudder). But you have to be firm on the stick so that you're flying the commanded attitude vs. letting the winds take the airplane where it will.

The bottom line is to be the master of the aircraft and don't let it be the master of you. And to re-iterate, I would never plan to touch down in a three-point attitude. It's all too easy to accidentally touch down nosewheel first and either cause damage to the gear or get into a porpoise of increasing amplitude until you break the nose gear right off. I've seen it with military aircraft and it ain't pretty.

-Matt
402BD
CFI, USAF Instructor
 
The RV-XA gear can't take Cessna style punishment. Period. Every landing is "soft field". Just watch somebody roll by in their A model, it's obvious.
 
We get all whipped up about landings, but lets not forget the takeoff. I watched a number of people, run hundreds of feet down the runway on takeoff with the elevator centered and nose wheel rolling. I thought we all knew better.
 
A friend sold his RV6A and asked me to check out the new owner's CFI he brought along to fly the airplane back. The CFI was a retired airline captain and said he owned a RV4. He wanted to see me demo a T/O and landing. I did my normal add power and hold the stick back until the nosewheel just comes off the runway. I hold it there until the airplane flys off on its own. Flew my normal fairly close in downwind with half flaps then power all the way off and full flaps at the base turn with a nice stabilized approach angle. All the way down he was commenting how steep we were approaching and with full flaps and how slow we were(80mph). Slowed to 70-75 on short final and landed nose high on the mains then gently let the nose down as we rolled out. Before the flight I had told him and the buyer the nosewheel was the weakest link on the A models and treat it accordingly. I give him the airplane, we proceed to roar down the runway with nosewheel firmly planted and rotate at 80. We fly a cross country pattern with a 3 degree glideslope approach, half flaps and 95mph with power . Comes over the threshold at 90 and plants it three point. I sugested that he try it my way and he was highly offended and that he would do it his way and I could do it mine. After all I'm not a CFI so I guess I don't know anything. Anyway I'm sure that this airplane will become a statistic in the future as he will just pass the bad habits on to the hapless new owner. Don
 
The CFI needs some dual

yakdriver said:
The CFI was a retired airline captain...
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The lad spent a bunch of time in multi-engine aircraft that were flown with calculated rotation speeds. Very normal to have to hold some forward pressure on the, in his case, yoke to get to the required speed before deliberately rotating. "V1, Rotate!" Problem is, none of this applies to a light, single engine, nosewheel aircraft. I will guess that he didn't have much GA time outside of his '4.' Bluntly, the CFI needs some serious dual instruction. I will make a wild guess that he would be less than receptive to that idea. :mad:

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
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Graphic demonstration

Not an RV, but the dynamics are the same. Here is an extreme example of the dynamics of a fast, flat landing with the added interest of a textbook PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation.) Pay attention to the position of the elevator (stabilator in this case.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Worked on my landing today

I wasn't at LOE but I'll admit that I'm guilty of landing too flat more times then I like.

After reading this thread this morning, I decided to working on my landing technique today. I got my landing speed slowed down and made most of the landings full stall and kept the nose off the ground much longer.

Thanks for the inspiration to do better. :)
 
yakdriver said:
One big reason you see a lot of flat landings is a lot of RV pilots are afraid to slow the airplane down on short final and are touching down way too fast. The A models do really nice nose high full stall touchdowns when slowed properly. Plus with full aft stick you can hold the nosewheel off for a long time. With gusty conditions or crosswind I land three point in my 7. i want it all done flying when I touch down. I'll add half the gust factor but no more than that. Don
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Why not land on the mains and hold the nose gear an inch off the ground? You don't have to keep it a foot off the ground to protect it. Besides, with the nose wheel *almost* to the ground, you're not likely to go flying again, even if a gust catches you.
 
Rick_A said:
I wasn't at LOE but I'll admit that I'm guilty of landing too flat more times then I like.

After reading this thread this morning, I decided to working on my landing technique today. I got my landing speed slowed down and made most of the landings full stall and kept the nose off the ground much longer.

Thanks for the inspiration to do better. :)
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Thanks Rick. I am lucky to have a near full time copilot that doesn't hesitate to point out that something needs to be done better next time. It works both ways. Others aren't so lucky to have someone to hold their feet to the fire.
It doesn't have to be full stall every time, and an inch is as good as a foot to protect our chosen configuration.
 
I recommend practicing what I call "air force landings". That is, touch and goes without allowing the nose wheel to touch the runway. I saw some Air Force guys doing this one day and have no idea if it is taught by the Air Force, but it looked very cool. I have my flight students do this.
 
apkp777 said:
I recommend practicing what I call "air force landings". That is, touch and goes without allowing the nose wheel to touch the runway. I saw some Air Force guys doing this one day and have no idea if it is taught by the Air Force, but it looked very cool. I have my flight students do this.
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Tanya just chuckled from across the living room. That is the only way we "roll", mains only. Clearly a RV nose gear has no place getting involved in touch and go practice :).
 
Bad example at Oshkosh

Those of us who were lucky enough to float into Slosh Kosh 2010 remember how soft the homebuilt parking areas were. I had just finished taxiing my RV-7 into parking, and was in the process of getting the plane tied down for the week when I saw a RV-7A taxiing out of parking with the gust locks still installed on the elevator!:eek:

Fearing that the pilot may be headed for the runway and departure, I screamed like an idiot as I ran after that airplane. I was not about to let him depart with gust locks installed. I caught up to his marshaller (the guy on the moped) as they taxied onto the hard surface, and told the marshaller about the gust locks. He told me not to worry, they were just moving to another parking area. Well, at least the -7A wasn't going to take off with gust locks installed, but taxiing with them is just asking for a bent nose gear!

Maybe the marshaller doesn't know about the nosewheel issues. The pilot didn't seem to care, even after it was pointed out to him. Well, I did what I could do, and after that, it's up to the pilot to make the piloting decisions...:rolleyes:
 
After I landed at burning man someone came up and asked if I just landed the black and white RV. I said yeah and she (paul e - this was Sky Chick) gave me a really hilarious certificate on my 'great' landing. She said I was the first person that morning that held the nose up as long as one should on a dirt field.

Heh. I guess good practice for a nose wheel RV is actually just good practice.
 
John Clark said:
Not an RV, but the dynamics are the same. Here is an extreme example of the dynamics of a fast, flat landing with the added interest of a textbook PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation.) Pay attention to the position of the elevator (stabilator in this case.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
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And the sad thing is: All the pilot had to do was to pull back on the control yoke just a bit, and hold on for a few seconds............... :confused: The question is, how did that pilot get a license without knowing that small factoid?
 
Video

MauiLvrs said:
So, this one would be closer to home.....

RV7A flip at Croft Farm fly-in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfaCGc16jQ0&feature=related
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The Croft Farm video has gotten a lot of play, but I wish it showed more of the approach and was better quality. I posted the Piper because it is such a classic case of way too much speed and the "pilot" trying to nail it to the runway, resulting in the oscillation that broke off the nosegear.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I see airplanes taxiing without the stick back all the time at some of the back country strips. Smiley Creek has a rough parking area on the north side and I've witnessed Cessnas bouncing through there with the nose strut going full stop both ways and no up elevator and no slowing down. Fly the A model like a tailwheel and things will be fine. Don
 
This video of a 9A NG taxing and take off plus landing on grass shows the sort of movement that would be accentuated in a heavy landing to the point of the wheel tucking under. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYCerJM_Qww&NR=1

The interesting thing is the NG movement is largely back when in the rough rather than up.

Keeping that wheel off the ground as long as possible is my goal in life :)
 
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FYI

kymjon said:
This video of a 9A NG taxing and take off plus landing on grass shows the sort of movement that would be accentuated in a heavy landing to the point of the wheel tucking under. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYCerJM_Qww&NR=1

The interesting thing is the NG movement is largely back when in the rough rather than up.

Keeping that wheel off the ground as long as possible is my goal in life :)
Click to expand...

When I made this video I had the stick all the way back during taxi and takeoff. Once the wheel lifted off, I eased the back pressure only enough to keep the wheel clear of the ground.
Because of the camera angle the taxi looks a little fast, but was only the speed of a fast walk or slow jog.
I had not change over to the Matco axle yet. Note how fast the wheel stops spinning after it lifts off.

In looking at the video again, I am think that at slower speeds there is more back and forth movement. At higher speed the movements is more up and down.

Kent
 
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Freely spinning front wheel thanks to a spacer

Kent:

My front wheel spins freely w/o spending a lot of money on a replacement wheel. The steel spacer was leftover from an classic car air conditioning installation. We simply machined the length.

Barry


nosewheelspacer.jpg
 
kymjon said:
The interesting thing is the NG movement is largely back when in the rough rather than up.

Keeping that wheel off the ground as long as possible is my goal in life :)
Click to expand...

In order for the nose wheel to go up during a bump, the gear must flex near the firewall. And the flex on this gear leg is just behind the tire. Look where the taper is on the gear leg.

The pre 1971 VW front end was a trailing link. Meaning that when the tire hit a bump, it would move back and up. This system would take a beating! Just ask anyone that ran BAHA.

The A nose wheel is a trailing link.......... but with a narrow range limit.
 
More Examples

John Clark said:
The Croft Farm video has gotten a lot of play, but I wish it showed more of the approach and was better quality
Click to expand...

I also had seen the Croft Farm video, but watching it with 60 hours flying the aircraft instead of building, it was much more instructional. As you said, too bad the quality is poor and so many distractions blocking the view.
This one is a good example as discussed here of what not to do. While it demonstrates that you can beat the nose gear up on the dirt at get away with it for a while. I would guess that it time, the results will not be so favorable.
RV-9A Aerogard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU8Cs_ciS1k

This one is a little more difficult to understand how he lands so flat, as it appears that there is a noticeable amount of up elevator.

Pouso RV9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPL2ePylDXM

With 20 deg. flaps, ours is easier to hold the nose up and make soft smooth landings where you can keep the nose off of the ground. With 30 deg. is seems that you have to be on top of it to keep the nose up as it will fall nearly as soon as the mains touch. Others have said they have had the same experience. So for our normal landings, we use 20 deg. flaps.

In our 9A, I can hold the nose off for what feel like forever (a little below 30 kts). With a little power, it will continue the rest of the runway length with the nose off the ground. With about half power, our nose will come off the ground. Add full power and she will fly right off the ground in that attutude.
 
It's a Drag?

Kent,

As you point out, your nose wheel stops rotating almost instantly as you lift off ( . . . at about 2:15 into your video). How did you set the drag on the nose wheel for the video test? Now that you?ve changed to the adjustable Matco axle, have you noticed that the wheel spins more freely? Have you had an opportunity to re-shoot the video to see if there is visually a difference?

Thank You,

Bill Palmer :)
 
mrreddick said:
I, like Mr Aronow, let my nose down as soon as I could due to the strong gusty crosswind at 2pm Saturday when I landed. Keep that nose up high in strong, +20 gusts, and you may loose directional control.
Did I get any comments after landing? You bet, nothing else was going on and there were a lot of JUDGES watching.
Scott, good luck with getting your CFI and imposing your methods on the flying community.
During a BFR a few years ago, with over 400 hours in my 6A, the CFI didn't care for my forward slip technique with a 40 degree crosswind. He wanted me to crab all the way to the numbers then kick it straight, I prefer to keep the nose centered on the stripe. Tried one, just about re-kitted the plane, but the CFI was HAPPY. Care to guess how I make crosswind landings today after 1000+ hours?
I only spent 1 day at LOE and there sure seemed to be a lot of judging and critiquing going on, not just on the 9A debacle either.
Click to expand...

Mike I watched you land Saturday and thought you did a great job, although your nose was down you could still see the back pressure controlling the weight on the nose, Good Job!

Pat
 
Less drag.

Bill Palmer said:
Kent,

As you point out, your nose wheel stops rotating almost instantly as you lift off ( . . . at about 2:15 into your video). How did you set the drag on the nose wheel for the video test? Now that you?ve changed to the adjustable Matco axle, have you noticed that the wheel spins more freely? Have you had an opportunity to re-shoot the video to see if there is visually a difference?

Thank You,

Bill Palmer :)
Click to expand...

Bill, I have not got around to re-shooting the wheel after changing the axle. The video was taken after checking the tire pressure and breakout force as well as the front wheel axle torque. All were set to the values Van's recommends in the plans.

Kent
 
Kent your video is the best example I have seen of what the nose wheel and leg is doing on different surfaces. Not having any of the fairings on makes it easy to see what is happening. And yes I also noticed that at the slower speeds the back and forth motion was greater which fits in with the loss of pressure from a full back stick at slower speeds allowing more weight on the wheel.

The drag from the wheel and the leverage from the yoke appears to be bowing the leg back and it is easy to see that with a heavier loading on the front wheel and rough ground that bowing would rapidly get to the point of contact with the ground. The design appears to absorb shock backwards rather than up due to the flexible nature of the leg and the leverage from the fork. The quick flicking back and forwards would only need a momentary heavy load to cause a larger flick back for disaster to strike. That may not even be felt in the cockpit.

It would be great to see if the changed wheel you now have is materially different or the action remains largely the same.
 
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I agree with all the comments about holding the nose off the runway on both landing and takeoffs, but want to add one other thought for the tandem pilots. I almost never fly the aircraft by myself since I flew off my test time. I quickly found out during those 25 hours that I would run out of trim on the turn to final and the nose was too heavy to hold off the ground after touchdown. I finally got a 40# bag of traction sand, double wrapped it in plastic bags and put it on the floor of the rear baggage compartment. Immediately, I had plenty of trim in the pattern and I was able to hold the nose off for some aerodynamic braking. I now fly with a survival kit (I live in Durango, CO), a small tool bag, tie downs and canopy cover in the front baggage compartment when my wife is with me. On the rare occasion that she doesn't fly with me I transfer the above equipment to the back shelf of the rear baggage area. The twenty or so pounds of equipment does the same as the forty pounds on the floor and the bird flies with its elevator in the trail position at cruise. I can hold the weight off the nose gear on takeoff and landing and I keep the stick all the way back after landing until I am at taxi speed on smooth ground. I don't land on grass or gravel, because I don't want to take the chance of scratching Sweet Pea! Just a thought for those of you who fly your tandems without a passenger.

Jim
 
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