DonFromTX

DonFromTX

Well Known Member
As an old Army guy, the two phonetic alphabets are inscribed in my brain cells (you know able, baker, and then the Alpha Bravo)
My question is, it absolutely required to use an accepted alphabet? If I wanted to, could I use alternate words? I hear people doing that from time to time, but don't know if it is officially sanctioned or not. Sometimes I revert to the "old" one by accident.
 
2??? I guess there must be 3.... As a police officer I occasionally catch myself throwing in an Adam, boy!!! Seems like ATC is more understanding with that then the guys I work with when I slip the other way and throw in an alpha, bravo. Oh well, everybody knows what is meant.
 
The ICAO alphabet is what is supposed to be used. But my experience as an ATC (many years ago) and many more years as a pilot, most are tolerant if it's clear to what you are attempting to communicate.

bob
 
BUT

Please don't use the CB jargon on aviation radios. It makes me cringe everytime I hear 10/4 or what's your 20 on unicom..
 
I've heard non-standard words used and ATC never seems to mind. I'm reminded now what an airplane geek I've always been. I learned and memorized the ICAO alphabet when I was a little kid and that was one less thing I had to learn when I started my PPL training. :D

Cheers,
 
I see tha ICAO alphabet is the one the Army taught us way back when, so I revert to the correct one by age alone. I can remember we counted cadence for hours citing the alphabet with each step.
The reason I asked, my new N number is 461DG for the serial number of the RV12, and my name "Don" and wifes name (Geneda). I have heard others use non standard and thought I would use four six one don geneda for kicks. Guess I won't, besides Golf is only one sylable and one delta golf rolls off the tongue easier anyway..
 
Fox

I've always found it interesting that in the vast majority of aviation radio calls I have hard, "foxtrot" is shortened to "fox". I do it too, especially with my registration, "Fox Uniform November Charlie" is enough of a mouthful without adding the "fox".

I was taught that after the initial call, we (canadians) can leave off the initial "fox" or "gulf", and just call out the last three letters of the reg. Around my home airfield, I often go further and abbreviate to just "November Charlie" after the initial calls.

I think they should have designed the ICAO phoenetics so that all letters had AT MOST two syllables.
 
Substituting, doing what feels good, convenient etc goes against the actual purpose of it. It was designed by smart people using communication experts, taking into consideration phonetics, foreign pronunciation, standards use, expectations of the listener, and decades of experience to settle on what we have today.

Its not about whats easier for you to say, or sounds better for you, or what rolls off your toungue. Its about standards set for a function thats important enough to use in our field. A study in the history of it is an interesting study in linguistics, human nature, and politics.
 
I don't know if it's different up in Canada but I was taught that you can't shorten your call sign until ATC/Tower/Ground does. After all, if I'm sharing space with 36PK, for example, and don't realize it, I could confuse the heck out of someone by shortening my numbers to 6PK. It doesn't pay to confuse the controllers any more than normal (just kidding; I've always had good experiences with ATC). The idea is that they know who they're talking to and will shorten or not as appropriate.
 
RV8iator said:
Please don't use the CB jargon on aviation radios. It makes me cringe everytime I hear 10/4 or what's your 20 on unicom..
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Aren't ten codes also used by the military, as well as police and fire departments? If so, I can understand why someone might do such out of habit.
 
Kahuna said:
Substituting, doing what feels good, convenient etc goes against the actual purpose of it. It was designed by smart people using communication experts, taking into consideration phonetics, foreign pronunciation, standards use, expectations of the listener, and decades of experience to settle on what we have today.
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...and given all that, I'd LOVE to ...umm... meet... the guy who thought SIERRA was a good idea...
 
whitewulfe said:
Aren't ten codes also used by the military, as well as police and fire departments? If so, I can understand why someone might do such out of habit.
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Yes... Illinois State Police (District 10) started their development. The "10" on the front was to allow for radio transmit delays/cutoff. However, beyond the really common codes (10-4, 10-20) the codes do not mean the same thing to different groups...so it can be more confusing than helpful. (Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-code)

I think the "Convoy" song is really what associated them with CB... ;)
 
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The ICAO alphabet actually works. As a ham, I hear many creative callsign phonetics which actually confuse the listener even more (especially when said in one system, then the other). When pronounced correctly it enhances intelligibility.
 
Somewhat random aside: about ten years ago I worked in a gun store. As you would expect, a regular duty of mine was calling the FBI service to run instant background checks. I already knew the phonetic alphabet then and used it religiously, and it would annoy me to no end when the FBI operators would make up their own.

"That's B as in buffalo?"
(audibly) "Correct."
(in my head) "NO, IT'S BRAVO YOU FOOL!!!!!"

:)
 
prkaye said:
I was taught that after the initial call, we (canadians) can leave off the initial "fox" or "gulf", and just call out the last three letters of the reg. Around my home airfield, I often go further and abbreviate to just "November Charlie" after the initial calls.
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I think you mean "Golf" there, not "Gulf".

I chose my reg to match my initials, but I always drop both Fox (...trot... sorry) and Romeo after i've established that the tower has dropped the Fox (...trot... darn, i'm even doing it here!) and there are no others in the circuit with Bravo Papa in their reg. Some days the circuit has been busy enough that it was probably appreciated.
 
I still get confused over it every so often. I was a cop for 28 years and had a different phonetic code: Aviation: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Gulf, Hotel, India,,,,,,,,,,. Police: Adam, Boy, Charlie, David, Edward, Frank, George, Henry, Ida,,,,,,,,,:(
 
The ICAO phonetics are the proper and prescribed phraseology. I have rarely heard other variants while at work. While you may be able to communicate using other phonetics, it does convey at minimum your lack of professionalism as a pilot, and lowers my expectations as to your abilities.

Enroute Air Traffic Controller
 
I revert to "wilco", meaning will comply out of habit. I think everyone understands that one though.
 
Wilco!

DonFromTX said:
I revert to "wilco", meaning will comply out of habit. I think everyone understands that one though.
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Nothing wrong with using "wilco." I think that it is a handy and underused term. Some seem to think that it is old fashioned, but it is alive and well in the Pilot-Controller Glossary:

WILCO- I have received your message, understand it, and will comply with it.

Remember that "Roger" does not mean that you are going to comply with the controller's request, it just means that you heard the transmission. Again, from the Glossary:

ROGER- I have received all of your last transmission. It should not be used to answer a question requiring a yes or a no answer.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I have the Police Officer issue as well. I fly a State Police Helicopter and many times you have to talk to ATC and dispatch at the same time so the two alphabets can run together, especially under stress. It's never been a problem other than the harassment from the patrol guys. I guess the only issue I had was when the police dispatcher cleared me to land when I called the LZ in sight. She thought it was funny. Don't forget to flip the switch.

___________________________
Brandon
RV-8 planning and money saving stage
 
An interesting departure from the convention of using the ICAO alphabet to name taxiways is at Atlanta Hartsfield, which has a Taxiway Dixie. I believe that is an attempt to reduce the confusion with the name of the primary carrier at that airport.;)
 
Nerves

On my student solo cross country I got a little brain freeze and momentarily forgot the phonetic alphabet at the exact instant when I needed it. What came out was "inbound with information Oprah". :rolleyes:
 
szicree said:
On my student solo cross country I got a little brain freeze and momentarily forgot the phonetic alphabet at the exact instant when I needed it. What came out was "inbound with information Oprah". :rolleyes:
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Now I don't believe I would have admitted that!
 
John Clark said:
Nothing wrong with using "wilco." I think that it is a handy and underused term. Some seem to think that it is old fashioned, but it is alive and well in the Pilot-Controller Glossary:

WILCO- I have received your message, understand it, and will comply with it.

Remember that "Roger" does not mean that you are going to comply with the controller's request, it just means that you heard the transmission. Again, from the Glossary:

ROGER- I have received all of your last transmission. It should not be used to answer a question requiring a yes or a no answer.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
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As John pointed out these are 2 VERY good phrases but are often misused. One of my pet peeves is when a pilot uses "Roger" when he means "Affirmative"
 
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