A

AirbusPilot

Well Known Member
Hi Folks,

Finally here in Chile, the people that is building and flying experimental plane are getting together in one organization that is call ACAEX, We will be trying to change our regulation to FAA standard.

I want to know what kind of "operating limitation" FAA is issuing with your "special airworthness certificate" on phase II for your aircraft in the USA so we may ask to have same kind of limitation.

Please post copy of your airworthness certificate with limitation.

Thanks,

Fernando
 
Auburntsts said:
Fernando,
Here's a link to FAA Order 8130.2F Change 4

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8130.2F Ch 4.pdf

The info you want is on page 164, paragraph 154.

The companion verbiage in the FARs is out of Part 91, paragraph 91.319 and Advisory Circular 20-27g.
Click to expand...

Thank you, that will help but there is one limitation here in Chile that we don't like it said:

"This aircraft do not comply with annex 8 from ICAO, so if you want to fly outside Chile, you must get a special authorization from the foreign country wish you pretend to overfly"

What we believe is that ICAO annex 8 do not apply to Experimental. Please correct me if I am wrong!!!
 
Last edited:
AirbusPilot said:
Thank you, that will help but there is one limitation here in Chile that we don't like it said:

"This aircraft do not comply with annex 8 from ICAO, so if you want to fly outside Chile, you must get a special authorization from the foreign country wish you pretend to overfly"

What we believe is that ICAO annex 8 do not apply to Experimental. Please correct me if I am wrong!!!
Click to expand...

This is on Page 25 of the above link -

(21) This aircraft does not meet the requirements of the applicable, comprehensive, and detailed airworthiness code, as provided by Annex 8 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation. The owner/operator of this aircraft must obtain written permission from another CAA before operating this aircraft in or over that country. That written permission must be carried aboard the aircraft together with the U.S. airworthiness certificate and, upon request, be made available to an FAA inspector or the CAA in the country of operation.
 
Gil,
I don't think Fernando is looking for the paragraph, instead I think he's asking if we agree with him that ICAO Annex 8 does not apply to Experimental aircraft as stated in the paragraph.

Fernando, unfortunately everything I can find on the AOPA and EAA websites points to the FAA's supporting the conclusion that Annex 8 does apply. The reason you might not find many pilots here in the the US complaining about it is our immediate neighbors (Canada, Mexico, and the Bahamas) have essentially given us US Pilots even with Experimental certified aircraft blanket approval to fly into and out of their countries with no additonal administrative requirements than a standard certificated aircraft (in the case of Mexico) or by simply having in our a posession a generic blanket form letter (in the case of the Bahamas and Canada) that anyone can download online ahead of time.

Here's the link for the Canadian authorization (note there's also an updated version for LSA's):
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/sfa/media/tcauth.pdf

and for the Bahama's:
http://www.aopa.org/members/pic/intl/bahamas/Bahamas_Approved_STANDARDISED_VALIDATION_2011.pdf

So bascially this is a non-issue for the majority of US pilots. Perhaps someone with extensive experience flying internationally in their own plane will chime in.
 
Last edited:
In Europe, that is essentially the rules... you have no "right" to fly abroad - and must get permission from each other country you wish to fly over.

In practice, as with the US, there are "agreements" meaning permission is not always required for each aircraft for each visit, for each country. But these are specific agreements, not "rights".
 
Permissions...

Does this mean that in actuality we are required to have written permission from Mexico, Bahamas and Canada for example prior to flight into their airspace?

If so, does or has anyone done this routinely?
 
N42AH said:
Does this mean that in actuality we are required to have written permission from Mexico, Bahamas and Canada for example prior to flight into their airspace?

If so, does or has anyone done this routinely?
Click to expand...

We had the above referenced letter before going to the Bahamas recently.
 
For Mexico you already have permission, you don't need anything else as far as authorization goes (ie no need to contact the Embassy or some Mexican Gov agency to request permission). For Canada and the Bahamas, you are supposed to have a copy of the blanket authoriization letter on you, but I'll defer to those who have actually made those flights as to whether anyone has ever actually asked to see it. I plan to fly to the Bahamas regularly once I get in the air so my plan is to simply download a copy of the letter and put it with my other aircraft paperwork so I'll always have it. Will most likely grab the Canadian one too, while I'm at it.
 
Last edited:
Auburntsts said:
Gil,
I don't think Fernando is looking for the paragraph, instead I think he's asking if we agree with him that ICAO Annex 8 does not apply to Experimental aircraft as stated in the paragraph.

.......
Click to expand...

I think the paragraph quite clearly states that the FAA states that permission IS required to fly Experimental aircraft in other countries and is the FAA interpretation of the ICAO rules.

Annex 8 is here -

http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/Annex 8 - Airworthiness of Aircraft/Annex 08, 10 edition.pdf

...and talks only about aircraft with Type Certificates, which our Experimental aircraft do not have, so Annex 8 is not applicable.

Annex 8 defines International Airworthiness Standards (see the introduction) so therefore our Experimentals do not meet International standards - hence the permission required bit....:)
 
Last edited:
Dear Folks,

Thank you for all your answer and help, I am clear now that best thing is to try to get some kind of agreement with our neighbor, specially Argentina.

Best,

Fernando
 
You must log in or register to reply here.