Chkaharyer99

Chkaharyer99

Well Known Member
Friend
I am looking for advice from those who have successfully completed a panel upgrade.
Background/Mission:

I am a relatively new - low time VFR pilot with about 176 hour?s total time. About 38 hours of that is in my RV-8.

My mission is local flights with emphasis on pattern work and cross country.

My future goal, with additional training, is upset/recovery/aerobatics. I also want to get my IFR ticket. Someday I hope to fly outside the US (1090). I almost always fly alone.

Current Panel Configuration:

1. Garmin 430W
2. Garmin 327
3. Advanced Flight Systems 4500
4. TruTrak Digitrak Auto Pilot
5. Altimeter (steam gauge)
6. Vertical Speed Indicator (VSI gauge)
7. Airspeed Indicator (ASI gauge)
8. I-Pad with basic Foreflight (No Stratus)

Priorities/Needs/Wants:

1. Angle of Attack (Priority)
2. ADS-B in/out. I want 2020 compliance. I want free WX and traffic, WX? (Priority)
3. Secondary Radio (Need/want)
4. Audio Panel Capability

Proposal:

Step 1: Buy/install Garmin Angle of Attack System. My plane currently has the homemade style pitot tube. I would follow Pat Hatches example on how to install the Garmin Pitot with Gretz. I?m new and have no stall warning device. This is a priority to me. How high of a priority is AOA for you (Scale from lowest 1 - 10 highest)?

Step 2: Remove Garmin 327 and install Garmin 330 ES. That would give me ADS-B out and TIS-A in (Traffic) compatible with my existing AFS 4500. I know that's only part of the traffic picture. With an update on my Garmin 430W as a position source I think I would be ADS-B 2020 compliant? I would also be able to use the 330ES in a future EFIS upgrade. Will a Garmin 330ES fit in an RV-8 on the left side of the panel?

Step 3: Buy and use either a Stratus II (Foreflight) or a GDL 39 3D (Garmin Pilot) with I-Pad for free WX and dual band Traffic. This would likely be concurrent with step 2. Probably Garmin GDL 39 3D as I plan to eventually go with a Garmin GX3 Touch.

Step 4: Buy/install Garmin GTR 200 Radio and second comm antenna. The GTR 200 claims to have an audio panel. Would that audio panel be compatible with my Garmin 430W or would I need a separate audio panel? If so, I would install a Garmin GMA 240 Audio Panel.

Do you agree with my approach (priorities, steps, products?)?

What do you suggest?
 
I would recommend a different approach, since you already have the AFS system installed.

Step 1: Install AFS 5400/5500/5600 Touch (wiring would be almost nothing to upgrade versus a whole new system with the G3X Touch)

Step 2: Install AFS/Dynon AOA Pitot Tube

Step 3: Install AFS/Dynon/Trig Mode S Transponder with position source from 430W or new Dynon 2020 GPS.

Step 4: Install AFS/Dynon ADS-B Receiver.

Step 5: Install AFS remote audio panel and COM radio. The GTR has an intercom, not an audio panel.

Step 6: either update A/P control head to the AFS Pilot by TruTrak or replace servos with AFS servos for full lateral and vertical control from the EFIS.

Give me a call and I can walk you through the update process and the thought process for the upgrade.
 
I would second Jesse's approach, but would think through a couple items first.

No question that the AFS 5000 series is more feature rich, but is your 4500 a "S" version. If it is, there are some other options similar to what Jesse recommend without buying a new screen. With that said, the 5000 series are really nice.
 
Whatever path you take, the plan to replace the GTX327 with a 330ES is likely your least cost-effective solution. The 330 ES is an expensive device, at least a thousand bucks more than competitive solutions. Plus it's longer than the 327 so it may give you headaches with structural interference. The 330ES is a good box, but with its size, cost, power consumption etc, it's not the best fit for our aircraft.
 
I think Jesse gave you a great suggestion. My only advice is do everything you want to do at the same time. Tearing into the panel for upgrades is no fun and can be tedious.

Also, how ever long you think it will take to finish, triple that time and you should be close.
 
Cost AFS 5600 Touch versus Garmin G3X Touch

Jesse said:
I would recommend a different approach, since you already have the AFS system installed.

Step 1: Install AFS 5400/5500/5600 Touch (wiring would be almost nothing to upgrade versus a whole new system with the G3X Touch)

Step 2: Install AFS/Dynon AOA Pitot Tube

Step 3: Install AFS/Dynon/Trig Mode S Transponder with position source from 430W or new Dynon 2020 GPS.

Step 4: Install AFS/Dynon ADS-B Receiver.

Step 5: Install AFS remote audio panel and COM radio. The GTR has an intercom, not an audio panel.

Step 6: either update A/P control head to the AFS Pilot by TruTrak or replace servos with AFS servos for full lateral and vertical control from the EFIS.

Give me a call and I can walk you through the update process and the thought process for the upgrade.
Click to expand...

Jesse,

Thank you very much for the well thought out comprehensive response. I really like my current AFS 4500 and appreciate the service I've received from Advanced (Rob Hickman) when I had an issue due to my failure to update the software.

I seriously considered trading in my AFS 4500 for a 30% discount on a AFS 5600T. The issue for me in that decision was the extra costs to buy a new ADAHRS and I think I need a new magnetometer and a couple other things. The only original equipment that I would be able to keep would be the engine information box that's inside the AFS 4500. When I factored in all those cost with the 30% discount, it still seemed as though I would be money ahead going with the Garmin G3X. I also seems that the G3X has more functionality then the AFS when compared side by side. I am no expert.

I'm interested to know what your approach would cost me. I will give you a call.

Thank you again!
 
I am traveling today, but will have my cell phone on until the flight leaves (2:00pm your time). I'd be happy to talk through the options and costs.

You' very seldom come out ahead by moving from one vendor to another unless you are planning to do a tear-out and rewire the entire plane. The engine sensors don't change, and even as importantly, the harnesses remain untouched. Next, your existing EFIS harness remains mostly untouched.

As for the 5000 series upgrade, you can do most of what you are wanting with your current screen, but moving to a 10" touch screen from an 8" non-touch is what I would do. I have done this for several people in the past and they loved the upgrade, especially since they didn't need to learn a whole new system, but rather just the new features of what they already knew.

Another thing is that you probably already have the ARINC 429 converter for the AFS, which puts you money ahead by not changing.
 
Jesse's advice is very sound; however, as a low time VFR pilot, I would suggest you fly with what you have for one or two hundred hours before making any changes. By then you will have a really good idea of what kind of flying you do and what the limitations of the current panel are.
 
Step 1: AOA to increase my situational awareness

I will definitely take all of your responses under careful consideration in making my eventual decisions about what to do with my panel.

Regarding Bill R's response:

"...as a low time VFR pilot, I would suggest you fly with what you have for one or two hundred hours before making any changes."


Angle of Attack is my first priority (step 1). I've read quite a bit of really bad news about experienced pilots stalling/spinning their planes at low altitude with very bad outcomes. Maybe a good quality AOA could have saved them?

I'm not so experienced and the idea of flying without a AOA concerns me. I have absolutely no real experience to back that statement up but maybe some of you do. That's why I'm asking.

The FAA has something to say on the matter of AOA :

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=15714

Measure Could Improve Safety in Thousands of Aircraft

"AOA indicators may help prevent loss of control in small aircraft because they provide a more reliable indication of airflow over the wing".

and

"An “angle of attack” is the angle between a plane’s wing and the oncoming air. If the angle of attack becomes too great, the wing can stall and lose lift. If a pilot fails to recognize and correct the situation, a stall could lead to loss of control of the aircraft and an abrupt loss of altitude. Stalls can happen during any phase of flight, but they are critical when planes are near the ground and have less room to recover, such as during landing and takeoff."

I can certainly fly one or two hundred more hours just the way my panel is, but, wouldn't it be safer to complete my step 1 proposal and install a high quality well calibrated AOA and have it there to assist me in managing my relationship to the relative wind while logging that 200 hours?

The FAA does not advise which AOA I should install.

Do these things really work accurately?

Have any of you been saved by an AOA?

My thirst for knowledge is not quenched.

Jesse, I called you around 1330 hours, no answer. I will try again tomorrow.

Thank you again everyone.
 
Last edited:
GRT Audio Panel

Jesse said:
I would recommend a different approach, since you already have the AFS system installed.

Step 1: Install AFS 5400/5500/5600 Touch (wiring would be almost nothing to upgrade versus a whole new system with the G3X Touch)

Step 2: Install AFS/Dynon AOA Pitot Tube

Step 3: Install AFS/Dynon/Trig Mode S Transponder with position source from 430W or new Dynon 2020 GPS.

Step 4: Install AFS/Dynon ADS-B Receiver.

Step 5: Install AFS remote audio panel and COM radio. The GTR has an intercom, not an audio panel.

Step 6: either update A/P control head to the AFS Pilot by TruTrak or replace servos with AFS servos for full lateral and vertical control from the EFIS.

Give me a call and I can walk you through the update process and the thought process for the upgrade.
Click to expand...

GRT does have a remote audio panel, it's our PAC15EX
 
Mark, he was referring to the Garmin GTR radio, not the GRT EFIS.

I always feel sorry for people like the OP, who say they're inexperienced but then pose a question, "Should I choose A or B?", apparently not realizing they have excluded C and D, which might be better choices.
 
Or P or S

BobTurner said:
Mark, he was referring to the Garmin GTR radio, not the GRT EFIS.

I always feel sorry for people like the OP, who say they're inexperienced but then pose a question, "Should I choose A or B?", apparently not realizing they have excluded C and D, which might be better choices.
Click to expand...

Our visibility to the pilot community is mostly by word of mouth and by our dealers. Having just a single ad placement in AOPA, our success is primarily due to our fans and the product itself.

Sure do appreciate your technical contribution to all members of Van's AF on a wide range of systems.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.