AndyRV7

AndyRV7

Well Known Member
I am interested at the moment in buying a plane with a steam gauge panel and am trying to decide if it would be feasible for me to swap out the panel afterwards. I am not a builder, so I have never put in a panel before. What I really need is for someone to demystify the process and skills needed for me.

I have my eye on a Dynon Skyview, and maybe an audio panel and transponder swap to match the Garmin 430 that is in the plane. The audio panel is currently a PMI model and I am not sure about the xsponder brand at the moment. The plane is currently all steam gauges, with one glideslope, and all Van's engine gauges. It has some sort of fuse/breaker system built into the rocker switches.

One other thing I would like to have is an autopilot. Is it possible to do this at the same time as the panel, or would it be futile now that the plane is in finished form?

I am a VFR pilot and don't plan to use the RV to get an instrument rating.

Thanks for any insight!! Andy
 
You Can Do It!

Sure, it can be done, people upgrade panels all the time. You'll have to acquire some skills and knowledge, just like the rest of us...but that's part of the fun :D. And if you're going to add the autopilot, when you're changing the panel is a great time to do it.

I would recommend getting Bob Nuckolls' book on wiring and electrical design: http://www.aeroelectric.com. That's a good starting point, and it offers the starting point and for many homebuilders' electrical design. If you can get the plane's original schematics or any sort of wiring diagram the builder used, you'll save yourself a lot of time and trouble as well.

Search around on this site and you'll find plenty of opinions and some insight regarding the EFIS and other choices you may make.

Good Luck, and have fun!
 
AndyRV7 said:
I have my eye on a Dynon Skyview, and maybe an audio panel and transponder swap to match the Garmin 430 that is in the plane.

Thanks for any insight!! Andy
Click to expand...

IIRC, the Skyview has a transponder in it.----Or, at least has the option to have one in it?

Look at the button just below the red.

SV-D1000_MFD_450.jpg
 
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Mission

Hi Andy,
Having scratch built my panel and done the wiring for an IFR system, I think I can speak to it somewhat even though I am not flying yet.

At this stage of you planning/dreaming, I think it would be in your best interest to really think about your mission (VFR) and compare the functionality of what you have now vs what your proposed panel will do. While doing so, keep in mind that some features of a new spiffy panel are probably superfluous to a VFR mission. The resulting list of needs/wants is what should be compared to the cost/effort to execute the change.

Since you asked about autopilot specifically, a couple of vendors supply servo bracketry for the RV7, so servo mechanical installation is relatively easy. As you may have already seen, servo control heads are available somewhat integral (varies) to some experimental EFIS, or 2-1/4" round or 3-1/8" round or radio stack chassis format.

Please remember that customization ALWAYS takes longer than you think it will. You will not be flying your bird during that time.

If you have concerns about skills to execute, I would point you towards Stein Bruch at www.steinair.com. That group is very skilled and helpful.

Good luck and happy holidays!
 
Thanks everyone.

I did speak to SteinAir and they sent me an estimate, but I have no real sense (even after a long conversation with them) of what work there actually is to do to get from a prefabbed panel to a using it in my plane. They have a guy that would come to me to in some way help with the install, but I can't figure out what exactly that means. That is, what do I need to do to have the plane install-ready, and how much of the instal is SteinAir actually going to do?

I did see the SkyView xsponder module on the Dynon site. Not sure which direction I would go though. I like the mode-s for sure.

One other thing I should have specifically asked. Are the engine and exhaust sensors "standard" units, or at least standard sized? That is, can I swap the Van's sensors for the Dynon ones, or do I need to do a lot of outright replacing? Any significant firewall wire routing to deal with.

I appologize for the newb questions. I am really just trying to figure out what I am going to need to learn or be proficient in to be able to tackle this.
 
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Sounds like you need somebody local to assist you with making a plan of action.

Is there an EAA chapter near you???

If so, are you a member??

As to the sensor questions, you need to talk to Dynon, or Stein, I suspect.

The cylinder head sensors are standard, at least to the mounting of them, but the output is a potential variable,
exhaust sensors are one size fits all, but again, the output is ???

Wiring the sensors is going to mandate penetrating the firewall. Without knowing what you already have in place, there is no way to accurately answer the question re. this.

IMHO, I would go with new sensors from the EFIS vendor. This way you start with a known unit, that is under warranty, and when bought as a bundle the price is usually pretty good.
 
Mike S said:
IIRC, the Skyview has a transponder in it.----Or, at least has the option to have one in it?

Look at the button just below the red.

SV-D1000_MFD_450.jpg
Click to expand...

Yea, the Skyview has the option of a Mode-S transponder, and I believe if you have a certified WAAS GPS in the system as well (your 430W?) It will satisfy the requirements for the ADS-B out. Its also priced a lot better than other certified mode s transponders. The Skyviews also have an autopilot built in, it doesn't support everything (yet) but it does do a a fair amount, and Dynon is always coming out with new stuff.
 
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a/p yes

AndyRV7 said:
One other thing I would like to have is an autopilot. Is it possible to do this at the same time as the panel, or would it be futile now that the plane is in finished form?
Click to expand...

You can add autopilot to a finished plane. You have to install a couple servos in the wing and tail, and you have to run a bunch of wires out to them from the panel area. It's a good idea to work this in with the panel upgrade so you can integrate the a/p with whatever goodies you buy for the panel.
 
Hi Andy,

Retrofits are one of those things that are pretty much impossible to give you a 100% clear picture of what's involved on your end without actually see what is in the plane first.

If the wiring in the plane is very well done and there are service loops for things like lights, fuel pumps, ignitions, etc.. then it'd be a simple task of you removing those wires from the panel and attaching them to a new panel. However, if the wiring is somewhat specific to the panel that is in the plane and has no flexibility, then it would take much more work on your part to modify what is there to match a new panel. On top of that, it also depends on if/what you have installed for current engine instruments, sensors (like fuel flow, EGT/CGT) which could involve you adding a lot of wiring through the firwewall and the addition of said sensors all over the engine/firewall.

In the end, you can hire one of our technicians to do it all for you or you can fly the plane up for some period of time and then pick it up with a new panel in it. Both options will cost a pretty penny over doing some of the work yourself. It may seem daunting, but it's also a good excuse for you to "get to know your plane" very intimately which is something that is a positive thing and something I encourage.

No matter what anyone tells you, a simple "panel swap" can be very complicated and time consuming unless the builder had the forethought to allow for that in the future. If you had built the airplane it would be multiple times easier to make some assumptions, but if you're looking at various airplanes that other people built, it's near to impossible for anyone to comment with any sort of validity as to what it could entail. It could be a fairly simple process, or could end up being a complete airframe rewire (been there done that on both ends of the extremes).

It gets even more complicated if you're talking about a partial retrofit where you keep some stuff and add/remove others. You then have to find a way to integrate and disinegrate all that "stuff" and wiring. I've seen lots of very nice wiring that made the jobs easy, but I've also seen wiring where it's frankly best to just cut it all out and start from scratch.

I wish I could be of more help, but without some more detailed views of the physical wiring behind the panel it's and the airframe wiring in general, it's really tough to know what this could entail for you. Could be a dream or could be a nightmare!

Sorry I'm not much more help at this juncture.

Happy Holidays!

Stein
 
Kudos to Stein and crew

Andy,

I had Stein design and build my panel. (as seen on his website) In the end Stein's Tech and all round great guy Brent Fischer, flew to TX. He installed, wired, and tested everything. Worth every dime spent!!!! Stein's knowledge and patience and support is worth it as well. Good luck and have a Merry Christmas.

Doug
 
panel upgrades

When I was deciding on a panel, I talked with a number of vendors. I was interested in a glass panel with IFR capability. I spent a lot of time looking at other RV panels. When I got ready to do something, I talked with the local EAA chapter and then decided to use Aerotronics in Billings, Montana. They gave me a lot of help making decisions and explained the options. They can be reached at 1 406-259-5006. Talk with Gary.
 
Why bother with a panel "upgrade"?

Obviously if you want it you can do it but here is another viewpoint. I bought my 6A with steam gauges and a Garmin 430.

I added a Trio wing leveler autopilot and later a Trio altitude hold system.

I fly in the mountains and do not need synthetic vision in the panel. I look outside.

I flew to the Bahamas with this setup. Fancy panel would not have made the trip easier.

I flew over Cuba to the Cayman Islands. Fancy panel would not have made the trip easier.

This year I flew to Baja Mexico. Fancy panel would not have made the trip easier.

I have been to the northernmost, southernmost, easternmost and westernmost airports in the lower 48 US states. Fancy panel would not have made those trips easier.

A dual axis autopilot does make those trips easier. On board weather would be very helpful on long trips yet I have not purchased any of the available weather systems since I cannot justify the cost at this time.

Certainly you can get neat stuff and useful info with an upgrade. Perhaps you should just fly a while with the current configuration to determine what is useful to you for your type flying.

Note: some consider me myopic and flat Earthish because of my views on ADS-B Out so my views may not be mainstream, correct or good advice.
 
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FutureProofing?

SteinAir said:
No matter what anyone tells you, a simple "panel swap" can be very complicated and time consuming unless the builder had the forethought to allow for that in the future.
Click to expand...

Stein,

I don't wish to highjack the thread, but can you comment a little more on whatever "best practices" you suggest for the original wiring that would "future proof" a panel, especially with regard to starting with a cheaper initial set of modern, VFR equipment, but allowing for a relatively easy upgrade a few years down the road to a full-scale, multimission IFR-capable system, with reasonable anticipation of ATC requirements likely to be in place a decade from now? You mentioned "service loops", but are there other design or implementation practices you like to see in place when you are asked to shoot-the-wad on an expensive panel upgrade? Does a central power management system like VerticalPower make a huge difference over a thoughtful hard-wired system that is designed for expansion?

I'm trying to plan for a panel which keeps my budget from delaying our first flight while still giving us a pain-free (Ha!) path to Nirvana.

Thanks in advance,

-- Stephen (and Tyson)
 
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Here are some easy steps you can take to ensure a future upgrade will go smoothly and easily whether done by yourself or a professional shop. These are in no particular order other than a brain dump!

1) ALWAYS leave extra wire/service loops on the main connections to equipment in the panel such as the EFISes, A/P, etc..

2) Try to leave yourself extra power circuits available to tap for future equipment. Same with Ground lugs, leave extras!

3) Try to keep the wiring very organized and bundled, don't just cram loose wires together with a zip tie. Take time to sort out bundles and secure them.

4) Leave some extra slack on Coax cables going to the radios in case you move them around in the future.

5) Do NOT string wires as if they are guitar strings that must make a "twang" when plucked. Overall this is the biggest boon to upgrades..

6) Try to keep your wires from being wound around each other like spaghetti in a bowl. Instead go for the look of a nice licorice rope.

7) Try to mount things like fuse blocks, relays, busses, etc.. in places where they are accessible and won't interfere with possible future equipment additions. Also, any remote 'boxes' that get installed should be easily removed and also accessible.

8) DO NOT use locktite on every single DSub or avionics connector screw (somehow someone somewhere at some point thought this was a good idea and convinced others to do this - it is not).

9) If you use Zip ties to secure all the wire (which is a fine way of doing it), be sure to PLEASE cut off the tails flush so the underside of your panel isn't like the razor wire fence at Leavenworth with hundreds of little needles waiting to shred your hands while working on the wire .

10) Try to use quality connectors and don't use the hardware store yellow wire nuts to splice wires together. Also do NOT use bread twist ties to secure bundles of wire...they act like little antennas! Please don't use automotive connectors.

11) If you wrap things with tape, please do not use Masking tape or Duct Tape that eventually degrades into a pile of sticky goo and paper powder.

12) Try to label your pitot and static lines clealy (differentiate them with separate colors if possible). Also try to use flexible line instead of hard aluminum. Try to leave a little slack in the pitot/static plumbing.

14) I had to skip thirteen so I wouldn't get a PM telling me it's bad luck.

15) Use as much standardized color coding as possible on wires, and if not possible take the time to label what you can. Use red for power, black for grounds, yellow for lights, blue for GPS signals, green for shield grounds, etc..

16) Last but not lease, try very hard to have a wiring diagram of your panel, interconnects and plane done at least in a rudimentary fashion (even if it's lipstick on a napkin). One can spend dozens upon dozens of hours trying to trace wires to find out what is going where.

In the end, most of the labor/time in doing a retrofit is trying to sort out what is in the plane already and sorting out what goes where. If you try to at least follow some of the above steps it'll be infinately easier in the future. There is a lot more I could add, but as you can imagine it's a busy week and my brain is a bit fried, so that's a quick regurgitation of the most common items I could think of. I'll try to put an article together in the future for Kitplanes that will go into more detail.

Have a great week and a Happy New Year!

Cheers,
Stein
 
SteinAir said:
Here are some easy steps you can take to ensure a future upgrade will go smoothly and easily whether done by yourself or a professional shop. These are in no particular order other than a brain dump!

1) ALWAYS leave extra wire/service loops on the main connections to equipment in the panel such as the EFISes, A/P, etc..

2) Try to leave yourself extra power circuits available to tap for future equipment. Same with Ground lugs, leave extras!

3) Try to keep the wiring very organized and bundled, don't just cram loose wires together with a zip tie. Take time to sort out bundles and secure them.

4) Leave some extra slack on Coax cables going to the radios in case you move them around in the future.

5) Do NOT string wires as if they are guitar strings that must make a "twang" when plucked. Overall this is the biggest boon to upgrades..

6) Try to keep your wires from being wound around each other like spaghetti in a bowl. Instead go for the look of a nice licorice rope.

7) Try to mount things like fuse blocks, relays, busses, etc.. in places where they are accessible and won't interfere with possible future equipment additions. Also, any remote 'boxes' that get installed should be easily removed and also accessible.

8) DO NOT use locktite on every single DSub or avionics connector screw (somehow someone somewhere at some point thought this was a good idea and convinced others to do this - it is not).

9) If you use Zip ties to secure all the wire (which is a fine way of doing it), be sure to PLEASE cut off the tails flush so the underside of your panel isn't like the razor wire fence at Leavenworth with hundreds of little needles waiting to shred your hands while working on the wire .

10) Try to use quality connectors and don't use the hardware store yellow wire nuts to splice wires together. Also do NOT use bread twist ties to secure bundles of wire...they act like little antennas! Please don't use automotive connectors.

11) If you wrap things with tape, please do not use Masking tape or Duct Tape that eventually degrades into a pile of sticky goo and paper powder.

12) Try to label your pitot and static lines clealy (differentiate them with separate colors if possible). Also try to use flexible line instead of hard aluminum. Try to leave a little slack in the pitot/static plumbing.

14) I had to skip thirteen so I wouldn't get a PM telling me it's bad luck.

15) Use as much standardized color coding as possible on wires, and if not possible take the time to label what you can. Use red for power, black for grounds, yellow for lights, blue for GPS signals, green for shield grounds, etc..

16) Last but not lease, try very hard to have a wiring diagram of your panel, interconnects and plane done at least in a rudimentary fashion (even if it's lipstick on a napkin). One can spend dozens upon dozens of hours trying to trace wires to find out what is going where.

In the end, most of the labor/time in doing a retrofit is trying to sort out what is in the plane already and sorting out what goes where. If you try to at least follow some of the above steps it'll be infinately easier in the future. There is a lot more I could add, but as you can imagine it's a busy week and my brain is a bit fried, so that's a quick regurgitation of the most common items I could think of. I'll try to put an article together in the future for Kitplanes that will go into more detail.

Have a great week and a Happy New Year!

Cheers,
Stein
Click to expand...

Stein, you rock.
 
Andy, I did something similar. Last Dec I bought a good 6A with a steam gauge panel and vans engine instruments. I purchased a Skyview at Sun-N-Fun and replaced all of the steam gauges and engine instruments. Although you might salvage one or two of the engine sensors--given the kit price for the Skyview engine module sensors, it's best and easier to replace all with new. The install of the Skyview, it's associated modules, ADAHARS, and the engine sensors is not excessively difficult and by just doing one thing at a time & following instructions it is definitely doable for a novice. Dynon, also has good support if you hit a snag--just call them. I found the tougher aspect to be the physical replacement of the actual panel. Although you may see many screws on the front of the panel it is also attached to the glareshield (on top) with rivets. Scary to drill out with a windscreen in place. I cut the panel off leaving about an inch all the way around and attached the new panel to that. The adahars module is recommended to be mounted in the back. Removing the rear bulkhead you can make a small bracket/shelf for it to sit on, that is fairly simple and works well.
If you don't feel comfy with all this, some of the prior suggestions make sense such as seeing if there is someone local (EAA chapter) willing to help. Good luck--it's worth it. By the way, Stein Air is great and they are very competitive on prices for purchasing the stuff also. I helped Dynon install in a neighbors 9A recently and we purchased everything from Stein.
 
I agree with everything Stein says with one exception...

And that is leaving out #13. If you are that superstitious, you should be flying airplanes!
 
Sign off

When you guys work on an experimental you have purchased, how did you go about getting the work signed off? Is it hard to find an AI that will sign off your work?
 
jlk said:
When you guys work on an experimental you have purchased, how did you go about getting the work signed off? Is it hard to find an AI that will sign off your work?
Click to expand...

IA is not required for any experimental aircraft "sign off'.

The owner can sign off on any mod. The only thing an A&P is required for is signing off on the condition inspection.
 
Thank you Mel. I have never read the sections pertaining to this and was apparently misinformed. I believed that when you purchased an existing experimental that because you did not possess the repairman certificate that you needed all work signed off. Again thanks for the education, I should read the FAR's more.
 
Mel said:
IA is not required for any experimental aircraft "sign off'.

The owner can sign off on any mod. The only thing an A&P is required for is signing off on the condition inspection.
Click to expand...

Really? I was told by a DAR that when you buy someone elses experimental aircraft, that only the original builder is the manufacturer and can sign off their own mods, and that follow on owners require a sign off.

Cheers
 
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Kobwo said:
Really? I was told by a DAR that when you buy someone elses experimental aircraft, that only the original builder is the manufacturer and can sign off their own mods, and that follow on owners require a sign off.

Cheers
Click to expand...

That DAR would have been wrong (or misunderstood)...Mel is a "by the book" guy, and you can take what he says to the bank!
 
Mel's right!!

To echo Paul, Mel's advice is money!

IAW with standard OPLIMS (as exemplified in various FAA documents-- 91.319, Order 8130, etc), the owner (not the original builder nor an A&P) signs off on mods. If the mod is construed to be a major alteration IAW 21.93 then the aircraft has to go back into phase one, the FSDO notified, etc, etc., the owner will still be the one who signs off on the mod.

And just to be clear, anyone (to include your neighbor's teen age kid) can legally perform maintenance on an E-AB aircraft (legal does not equal safe, however). But only the holder of the Repairman's Certificate for that specific airplane or an A&P can sign off on the annual condition inspection.
 
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