[Brantel]

Please share your thoughts on the following three layouts and let me know which one you like best. The last one is based around the possibility for a 696 in the plan.

Most of the equipment other than the GPS choice is pretty much set in stone. This panel will be 1.5" taller than standard.

Option One, side by side Dynons and 496

Option Two, stacked Dynons and 496

Option Three, stacked Dynons and 696

With this panel I would have:

2 Full Efis's, battery backup
1 EMS, battery backup
1 Dual Axis AP
1 EHSI
1 NAV/COM that is almost the same as two with the standby monitoring and the dual VOR capability with the Dynon EHSI
1 VFR GPS/Map/Weather and Traffic if I add a Zaon, battery backup
Backup ALT, AI with battery backup & ASI
Backup NAV/COM handheld with connection to external antenna


The mission is day/night VFR with the ability to stay IFR current and pop thru a layer or two every now and then.

 

[Mike S]

Brian, looks good, all 3 of them.

Only thing that caught my eye----flap switch. I would put it on the far left, where the trim indicator now is----allows easy thumb operation with hand on the throttle. Most applicable to 3rd drawing, but applies to all.

 

[L.Adamson]

You'll really want the 696...

I put my flap switch between the throttle and prop knob, which works very well.

And sit in the plane while moving your right knee to the right. You might not want a deeper extention below that of the throttle & mixture control. I don't like center consoles in 6,7,9's. However, I don't know which plane you're building.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[Jim P]

A couple items, but overall, I like the third:

1) Concur on the flap switch, put it as close as possible to the left of the throttle, it's really easy to hit that with the thumb.
2) I'm not that familiar with the Dynon, but does it have capability to display trim settings? If so, ditch the trim indicator.
3) Flap Indicator, It's really easy to look out the window and see where your flaps are. I'd get rid of the flap indicator.
4) Left side of the panel: I'd move the TT ADI to the top, then AS, then ALT. Personal preference, but that's just me.
5) Consideration: if you want to fly light IFR, you might want to consider a TSO'd GPS instead of a docking model. Then just use a 396/496 as a backup or for XM wx.
6) Master Switches in lewer left: do you have enough space for the actual swithc body behind the panel? Those do take up some space.
7) Just for asthetics, I'd line up the dimmers vertically top to bottom, but that's just me.
8) Breakers: I'd assume that those are breakers to the right of the 696? If so, can you move to lower right? Maybe put in one line across bottom of panel on the right side. Better yet, how about jsut going with fuses and do away with the breakers (except Alt Field)

Anyhow, that's just my opinion but it looks good.

 

[kentb]

Brian, remember to allow for the structure behind the panel

I see screw holes on the right side for the rib, but don't see any holes and
room for the left rib. Also make sure that the equipment on the top does not extend to far forward. If yours is a tipup then the structure up there limits how far up the equipment can go. I don't know the limitation on the slider.

Kent

 

[Brantel]

A couple items, but overall, I like the third:

1) Concur on the flap switch, put it as close as possible to the left of the throttle, it's really easy to hit that with the thumb.

Will look into that..

2) I'm not that familiar with the Dynon, but does it have capability to display trim settings? If so, ditch the trim indicator.

Yes it does but only on some screens, might be a good option although...

3) Flap Indicator, It's really easy to look out the window and see where your flaps are. I'd get rid of the flap indicator.

The only thing about this is with a taildragger, I find myself looking out at the wrong time to check if they are up all the way. I am really thinking about just leaving it out. The Dynon can display this as well.

4) Left side of the panel: I'd move the TT ADI to the top, then AS, then ALT. Personal preference, but that's just me.

Personal preference as well. I like the AS on the top so it is easy to have in the edge of your vision on landing.

5) Consideration: if you want to fly light IFR, you might want to consider a TSO'd GPS instead of a docking model. Then just use a 396/496 as a backup or for XM wx.

Maybe later, right now it is too much $$$ and the maps are poor in comparison to the portables.

6) Master Switches in lewer left: do you have enough space for the actual swithc body behind the panel? Those do take up some space.

No key switch for me, just toggles. I will have a ALT/Battery/OFF master switch and two mag switches and the left one will double as the start switch. The fourth one is a spare at this time.

7) Just for asthetics, I'd line up the dimmers vertically top to bottom, but that's just me.

Will think about this one.

8) Breakers: I'd assume that those are breakers to the right of the 696? If so, can you move to lower right? Maybe put in one line across bottom of panel on the right side. Better yet, how about jsut going with fuses and do away with the breakers (except Alt Field).

Switches, I have not labeled them yet. I am using all fuses behind the panel except for the Alt Field.

Anyhow, that's just my opinion but it looks good.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[Brantel]

Thanks Kent,

The panel rib will be moved/altered/chopped and topped so it won't be a factor.

Will watch carefully, good thing is that the stuff at the top is not that deep so it should be OK. I plan on making cardboard templates in 3D to be sure.

I see screw holes on the right side for the rib, but don't see any holes and
room for the left rib. Also make sure that the equipment on the top does not extend to far forward. If yours is a tipup then the structure up there limits how far up the equipment can go. I don't know the limitation on the slider.

Kent

 

[JonJay]

#2 and #3 are better for me....

You can keep a traditional "T" quite easily by moving your Alt. to the right of the D100. There is plenty of room.
I like the location of the Engine Monitor and GPS better in panel #2 and #3 layouts. It works better for me in my normal scan having the GPS up top to keep your eyes out of the cockpit as much as possible. The GPS is what I end up fiddling with the most and the Engine Monitor is mostly set and forget after leaning except for your normal scan. I also know that the viewing angle is good at that location.
Keep in mind, in all side by side models except maybe for the 10, you can reach all the way across the panel easily. No need to bunch everything up to reach it. You can clean things up a bit with better spacing. My Cabin Heat is all the way to the right of the panel and is reached easily. My SL30 and GTX327 are centered in the right half of the panel, no problem reaching.
Nice job and a very good selection of products.
I agree with the other posters on their comments, especially the flap indicator. You can lose that.

 

[Lycosaurus]

Trim display on Dynon

Yes it does but only on some screens, might be a good option although...

Brian,

I emailed Dynon about the trim indicators not being displayed on EFIS page. They told me that it will be have that capability in the next release (5.0).

 

[dhall_polo]

garmin stuff is long

Most likely, the subpanel will have to be modified to let the garmin radios extend back beyond the subpanel. If you're garmins are at the bottom of the panel, it will probably effect your subpanel quite a bit. If you can avoid interference near the lower flange of the subpanel, it's just a matter of cutting holes. If you interfere with the lower flange and engine control support bracket, you'll have to get more creative. I suggest you simulate the length and placement of your lower two radios and see where that hits the subpanel, of course allowing that wires come out the back of the radios...

My panel is different than yours, but I do have a typical garmin stack down the middle. You might take a browse through my panel galleries to get an idea of some of the issues I faced.
http://donka.net/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=rv7wiring
http://donka.net/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=rv7_finishing_panel

Good luck.

 

[Dynon]

I emailed Dynon about the trim indicators not being displayed on EFIS page. They told me that it will be have that capability in the next release (5.0).

Just a note, but this is only elevator trim on the EFIS page. Aileron, rudder, or flap displays are only on the EMS screen.

 

[Brantel]

Round 2

Here is round 2 of the panel possibilities...

I changed from a D180/D100 combo to a D100/D120 combo. Thought being why have 2 efis's and another set of backup steam gauges. With the new setup, I only have 1 Efis and a set of backup steam gauges.

Also removed the trim and flap indicators as these will be on the Dynon and moved the flap and trim buttons.

 

[N941WR]

Brian,

Here are a couple of my thoughts...

Put the flap switch to the right of the mixture, where Cessna has it. It is easier to toggle them up or down with your index finger while keeping your hand on the throttle. No need for a flap indicator as you can see the flaps in flight. Why waste the money and add the complexity and weight?

Put your carb heat to the left of the throttle, for the same reason as above.

In the event of a go-around, your thumb can push the carb heat in, palm of your hand pushes and holds the throttle and mixture in, and your index finger raises the flaps. Real simple.

Dump the D100/120 and put in a D180. If you really want redundancy, put a D100 or D10A over on the right. I fly with the D100 displaying the engine instruments about 90% of the time and with the smaller D10 EMS on the right side, my passenger can have an EFIS display, if they so chose. (There are plenty of pictures of this on my web site.)

If you drop the duel Dynon screens on the left, you can put the AP74 & HS34 under the D180.

Dump the TT ADI, you really don't need it, more so if you go with the D180 and a D100 or D10A.

Your map box won't fit where you have it drawn in. The 721A FWD canopy deck angles towards the center and will interfere with the depth of the map box. You can rotate the box 90 degrees, if you need.

Move the dimmers and cabin heat way over to the right. You really don't need them for flight, so get them out of your way.

You show a pullable CB for the alternator field but not for the flaps, electric trim, or autopilot. All of those items, especially the AP, should have either a switch or pullable breaker in the event of a runaway. You don't want your flap motor running continuously, should you have a short, even if it will slip when it comes to the end of its travel.

The Dynons will give you plenty of warnings, so no need for an array of lights; however, I do suggest you put one small green LED ?fuel pump on? light above the D100. This is wired so it comes on with the pump and is very noticeable when you leave it on in flight or forget to turn it one when you take the runway.

One last thing, and this is totally personal, not that the rest isn't, I really like flying with the throttle quadrant. It gives me a good place to rest my hand when flying and just looks cool! You might want to think about putting one in your plane.

Regarding the 496 vs. 696 debate. The 696 really does have some nice features but, there have been a number of times where we have used the auto data base in the 496 to find our hotel or restaurant once we have landed at some distant destination. Bummer the 696 doesn't have this feature. Just another reason to justify saving you some money.

 

[Brantel]

Brian,

Here are a couple of my thoughts...

Put the flap switch to the right of the mixture, where Cessna has it. It is easier to toggle them up or down with your index finger while keeping your hand on the throttle. No need for a flap indicator as you can see the flaps in flight. Why waste the money and add the complexity and weight?.

I did remove the flap and trim indicators and moved the flap switch to the left of the throttle so I can thumb it easy. Check out the latest pics above. Not sure about putting it to the right of the mixture.

Put your carb heat to the left of the throttle, for the same reason as above.

In the event of a go-around, your thumb can push the carb heat in, palm of your hand pushes and holds the throttle and mixture in, and your index finger raises the flaps. Real simple.

I like it there as well.

Dump the D100/120 and put in a D180. If you really want redundancy, put a D100 or D10A over on the right. I fly with the D100 displaying the engine instruments about 90% of the time and with the smaller D10 EMS on the right side, my passenger can have an EFIS display, if they so chose. (There are plenty of pictures of this on my web site.

If you drop the duel Dynon screens on the left, you can put the AP74 & HS34 under the D180.

I am hooked on dual displays because there is no way to have the PFD, Engine data and the HSI on the same screen. If I have the HSI up, I won't have any engine data. Not to mention the aux pages with the rest of the goodies on them.

Dump the TT ADI, you really don't need it, more so if you go with the D180 and a D100 or D10A.

I won't even punch thru a layer with just one EFIS as an attitude reference. No way. I must have dissimilar attitude instruments just for my own preference even if it is just to pop thru a thin layer to get on top.

Your map box won't fit where you have it drawn in. The 721A FWD canopy deck angles towards the center and will interfere with the depth of the map box. You can rotate the box 90 degrees, if you need.

I just placed that there by following the pic that Rudi posted of his box. Not sure how he got it to fit there. I can scoot it over a little to the left and or turn it sideways like you say. Will doublecheck this...

Move the dimmers and cabin heat way over to the right. You really don't need them for flight, so get them out of your way.

Will give this some thought.

You show a pullable CB for the alternator field but not for the flaps, electric trim, or autopilot. All of those items, especially the AP, should have either a switch or pullable breaker in the event of a runaway. You don't want your flap motor running continuously, should you have a short, even if it will slip when it comes to the end of its travel

I will have switches for the AP and the trim but nothing else, rest will have fuses. Will think about the flaps.

The Dynons will give you plenty of warnings, so no need for an array of lights; however, I do suggest you put one small green LED ?fuel pump on? light above the D100. This is wired so it comes on with the pump and is very noticeable when you leave it on in flight or forget to turn it one when you take the runway.

I think I will do just what you suggest here!

One last thing, and this is totally personal, not that the rest isn't, I really like flying with the throttle quadrant. It gives me a good place to rest my hand when flying and just looks cool! You might want to think about putting one in your plane.

Can't justify that at this time.

Regarding the 496 vs. 696 debate. The 696 really does have some nice features but, there have been a number of times where we have used the auto data base in the 496 to find our hotel or restaurant once we have landed at some distant destination. Bummer the 696 doesn't have this feature. Just another reason to justify saving you some money.

I plan to keep my 296 and will use that for the car.

Thanks a ton for the feedback!

 

[grantcarruthers]

I'd think about #2 and #3. That way the x96 is easily within reach of your copilot for xm radio, approach plate, and destination information look ups. Keep the copilot happy and in the loop, facilitates CRM too as they participate.

Looking good with all of them though

 

[N941WR]

I did remove the flap and trim indicators and moved the flap switch to the left of the throttle so I can thumb it easy. Check out the latest pics above. Not sure about putting it to the right of the mixture.

I just found it easier to toggle the switch with my finger rather than the thumb. You can always take some scrap, mount the switch and try it with your finger and thumb to see which works best for you.

I am hooked on dual displays because there is no way to have the PFD, Engine data and the HSI on the same screen. If I have the HSI up, I won't have any engine data. Not to mention the aux pages with the rest of the goodies on them.

If it works for you, then great. The D100/D180 can display an CDI and glide slope on the artificial horizon screen so I don't use the HSI display very often.

I won't even punch thru a layer with just one EFIS as an attitude reference. No way. I must have dissimilar attitude instruments just for my own preference even if it is just to pop thru a thin layer to get on top.

If this makes you feel comfortable, then go for it!

I just placed that there by following the pic that Rudi posted of his box. Not sure how he got it to fit there. I can scoot it over a little to the left and or turn it sideways like you say. Will doublecheck this...

I've not looked at Rudi's box, it might be above that brace. I have the box on my shelf and never installed it because it wouldn't fit where I wanted it. Just thought you should know.

Can't justify that (Throttle Quadrant) at this time.

I hear you, there are limits. One thing I found when flying with the stock throttles is that when flying (landing especially), and I hit a bump, I either add or reduce throttle. Same goes for when landing/taxiing on grass. With the quadrant, my hand rests on the quadrant and my thumb hooks the throttle, moving it forward and aft. I don't think I have ever used the "T" handle. Very little chance for an inadvertent throttle movement. Besides, it just looks cool IMHO.

I plan to keep my 296 and will use that for the car.

Thanks a ton for the feedback!

If you go with the 496, I doubt you will, but if you do, I put in the angle bracket to cant it towards the left. I'm not sure this was worth the money and makes it difficult for the co-pilot to see and work the GPS. Our cockpits are so small, you will be just fine flush mounting it.

One other thing, the Dynons use a serial DB9 connector for their updates. Think about where you want to mount these things. After recently moving my connectors from being zip-tied up under the panel to a bracket on the sub-panel, I thought it would be cool to make a bracket and mount them behind the 496 by pop-riveting the bracket to the back of the AirGizmo. That way when you need to update the software, you can pop out your GPS, plug your laptop into the DB9's and do the upload.

 

[Brantel]

The D100/D180 can display an CDI and glide slope on the artificial horizon screen so I don't use the HSI display very often.

I love EHSI's

I've not looked at Rudi's box,

Take a look,,, http://www.rudigreyling.com/pictures/rv_panel/rv_panel_panorama.jpg

If you go with the 496, I doubt you will, but if you do, I put in the angle bracket to cant it towards the left. I'm not sure this was worth the money and makes it difficult for the co-pilot to see and work the GPS. Our cockpits are so small, you will be just fine flush mounting it.

Good to know. I thought about adding one of those...

One other thing, the Dynons use a serial DB9 connector for their updates. Think about where you want to mount these things. After recently moving my connectors from being zip-tied up under the panel to a bracket on the sub-panel, I thought it would be cool to make a bracket and mount them behind the 496 by pop-riveting the bracket to the back of the AirGizmo. That way when you need to update the software, you can pop out your GPS, plug your laptop into the DB9's and do the upload.

Good mod!

 

[N941WR]

I love EHSI's

They are cool! Or should I say kwel!

Either way, it is about building the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build.

Whatever you do, you are the one who is going to fly behind it for many hours, so make sure it is what you want.

 

[SteinAir]

You know if you leave this up to the general VAF forum and try to come to some sort of "ideal" layout, you'll suffer anaylisis paralysis for eternity. One thing I can guarantee 100% is that every one of has has different ideas about they way things should be done and everyone has different preferences....myself included. The funny thing is that everyone is a little bit right, and most ideas do have some validity.

I would say design it the way you want it, make it at least conform to some "normal" ergonomic standards and layouts, then go to town!

My 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein

 

[Brantel]

I hear you Bill and Stein,,,,It is just nice to hear others opinions.

You can tell that I am open for some things and others I am dead set on. Most interested in the "gottcha's" that others have discovered by trial and error!

My hardware decision will be mostly based on living within my budget but all the while getting the most bang I can get for my buck at the time I pull the trigger. I have spent days on end and a million emails, picking the brains of people like Stein, etc. to determine what these things will and won't do and how you can integrate them to get the best value out of them.

How many people have bought a pile of hardware thinking it will do this and that and then when they go trying to put it all together, they are left with nothing like what they thought they would have or worse yet, not know that if you just connect this little wire to that, you can do this and this and this.

One thing for sure, we are blessed in the experimental world to get to have panels like these considering the cost of anything similar in the certified world. Blows my mind the bang for the buck you can get these days!

Stein, everytime I talk to you via email, my kids get further and further from that college education! Your point's have very solid foundations, I just wish I was a millionaire!

 

[N941WR]

Brian,

One thing that I did, which was a great help in finalizing my layout was to get some of the nice four color marketing cut outs from each of the instrument makers. I then taped them on the panel blank, drew on the switches, and other items.

When I thought I was done, put the panel in front of my stair stepper and would look at it every day for two months during my workout. Often I would move something, only to move it back the next day.

This also let me place my switches (remember, they were only drawn in) to make sure my hand would fit. In the case of the flap switch, the flap CB is just to the right of my throttle quadrant, and to the right of that is the actual plap switch. This arrangement was discovered when I realized that putting the switch right next to the TQ was too close to reach with my index finger while my hand was on the TQ. Also, I found I had to leave enough room between the carb heat and the TQ for the back of my hand to fit between the two, as the carb heat is to the left of the TQ.

I suggest you lay out your panel, put it on a table, sit down, and pretend you are flying behind it. Pay attention to where you hand goes for each switch and where your eyes move from outside to inside and to which instrument. Also think about where you are going to rest/brace your hand when turning a knob or activating a switch.

Only when you are happy with it, will you be ready to cut YOUR panel.

You are on the right track, and Stein is 100% correct (as always), in that everyone has an opinion that is based on a valid point.

Designing the panel was one of the most enjoyable parts for me.

 

[Brantel]

Dave,

Most likely on the bottom side of the fwd canopy decks.

Hey Brian:

I like the layout of the 2nd and 3rd panels. Question....Where are you planning to locate your headset jacks?

Dave

 

[uk_figs]

Same equipment

Brian
I have the same equipment that you are considering and you can see the layout from my blog. I have fewer switches but I have the extended panel etc. After my first 7 hours of flying I would offer the following comments:
1. No problem with the knees and I am 6 ' 3", I do have the seat in the rear position and the pedals in the most forward position
2. Flaps and fuel boost switch are between the throttle and mixture, easy to reach with hand on throttle, carb heat is to left of throttle also easy to reach.
3. I put the D120 on the right side so that the plane can be flown easily from the right, it as not as easy to read cross cockpit in sunlight so I tend to fly with the EFIS in split screem mode. Not sure I would change my layout but something to consider
4. I struggled with the position of the TT ADI II versus the backup ASI, I am OK with my layout but it could be one of those personal preference things.
5. Everything just fit vertically with the extended panel including the map box but it is close (I had to make a cutout in the modular panel frame to clear the D100 top left corner)

All in all I am pleased with the layout so I am not sure you can go wrong, I will also say that once set-up the Dynons, ADI II, HS 34, SL 30, GTX 327 and GPS 496 all play very well together.

 

[Brantel]

Here is my latest plan after deciding that I just plane don't need the 696 (drool) on my panel can't justify that thing at this point so the handheld I currently own will find a home there.

Currently I am considering an older approach capable panel mounted GPS in order to allow me to file /G legally and to sub for DME/ADF. Seems like these can be found around for a great price.

I saw in the Dynon manual that you can cut either the vertical or the horizontal ears off the mounting bracket for the D100/120 so I tightened this panel up vertically. When I printed it and put it in the airplane as it was, it was too tall vertically.

It won't have precision WAAS capability but I think it will do for what I need and want.