There has to be something amiss in that story, a student pilot making his first solo in a P-51 Mustang?

-John
Dreaming of building an RV....someday :rolleyes:
 
primary

If I read this correctly, this guy took his primary instruction and first solo in a P51. That is wild.

A very tragic event.
 
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tonyjohnson said:
If I read this correctly, this guy took his primary instruction and first solo in a P51. That is wild.

A very tragic event.
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Down the page there are some comments by the locals that the guy was a licensed pilot and that he had taken about 30 hours of transition training in the P-51. It was his first solo in the P-51, not his first solo.
 
The story is he was getting checked out by Matt Jackson, and that was his first solo landing after Matt turned him loose. He was not a student pilot. After trying to go-around after a bounced landing the pilot torque rolled it. Matt is a well-known P-51 checkout instructor. I have a few friends who know him well and got their LOA's (now type ratings) from him. He is highly regarded as a Mustang instructor.

Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
Part-time mustang mechanic
 
Same Plane?

I wonder if this is the one Barry Schiff flew as written up in the latest AOPA Pilot. This is not an unheard of occurrence. When I was stationd at K-2 AB the ROK AF were flying P-51Ds and they would approach the field in a four plane echelon formation and break left for individual in-trail landings. These were somewhat experienced P-51 (they were called F-51s by this time). One day as I was going to the transmitter shack the same thing happened bounced landing plane rolled over on its back totaling plane and pilot.

From a slightly different perspective - Yesterday I was at Wichita and we were sitting around waiting for the race results to be computed. I was talking to one of the older pilots (I'm 70 so I know older when I see it). He was in the Army Air Corps in 1944. I had seen him at Fargo, ND where there was a race in 2002. They have a fine museum there and they give rides in a Mustang. When asked how it was, he said "It was a lot slower than I remember". Later in his 37 year Air Force career he was an SR-71 pilot.

Bob Axsom
 
Different P-51

Bob Axsom said:
I wonder if this is the one Barry Schiff flew as written up in the latest AOPA Pilot. .....
Bob Axsom
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No ...different camouflage scheme.... gil A
 
What is "torque rolled it?"

He applied power too quickly and prop torque rolled the plane enough to cause the crash?
 
ronlee said:
He applied power too quickly and prop torque rolled the plane enough to cause the crash?
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If you get a chance to look into it, the takeoff in the P-51 is normally done at way less than full power. From what I remember, you begin the takeoff roll with a certain manifold pressure setting, and adjust it up slowly as airspeed increases because at slow speeds the torque from the engine is too much for the rudder. So if this student panicked and just shoved the throttle wide open, he probably wouldn't be able to control it.
 
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More or less

Hi Ron,
My late boss had a -51 that I worked around for many years but never flew. With 1450 HP available, inexperienced pilots have tried go-arounds with the addition of too much power too soon. If memory serves, the -51 needed around 6 degrees of right rudder trim for takeoff to counter left yawing tendency. The long nose has a big arm or lever if you will and it takes a lot of right rudder to keep the airplane going straight on takeoff or a go-around. You can only use as much power as the rudder will compensate for. Too much power and you can run out of rudder and the left yaw comes on. Couple this with a lot of torque that produces a roll opposite to the prop rotation and aileron is needed to compensate (kinda what happens to your arm when the drill gets stuck in a piece of iron). In this case, the right rudder trim may have been removed during the trip around the pattern as well.

This is just sad.

Regards,
Pierre
 
Yep, a 74 year old friend of mine and RV-7 builder told me how they would torque roll Skyraiders when he was in the Navy. Slow it down a little, full throttle and it would roll with ailerons neutral.
 
Very sad.

Very sad and my condolences to the family.

Some questions - as I read the writeups, this pilot had 30 hours of transition training. Assuming he was at least a private pilot, how would this training have compared to WWII training? And obviously this is likely to be one of the worst day of the instructor's life, but how does this impact the career of the CFI?

-- John
 
AT 6

Hi John,
The AT-6 was the trainer they used to transition into the Mustang. It's 1340 cu. in. Pratt was strong and they had many hours in it, including a whole array of combat aerobatic maneuvers/evasive maneuvers and so on. Ground school and more dual as is typical Military. The T-6 could be squirrelly on landing rolls as well. Not sure if higher altitude torque rolls were part of the training but I wouldn't be surprised.

My 180 -6A doesn't need full power for a go around and it takes a lot of right rudder for such a small airplane. My Air Tractor with the 700 H.P. PT-6 needs most of the rudder on takeoff and sometimes full rudder in a crosswind so I can imagine how strong 1450 HP in a Mustang is.

Regards,
Pierre
 
Barry Schiff's article

Barry Schiff's special article on soloing a P-51D in the latest AOPA Pilot provides some appropriate takeoff and land power application information.

Bob Axsom
 
P51/AT-6

At my Airpark (P19) in Chandler we had two residents take deliver in recent months. One 51 is a more of a museum piece that will be kept fresh by a the owner's professional and highly experienced war bird pilot.

The other is owned by a guy that owns and flies many planes. He purchased an AT-6 over a year ago to build time prior to the purchase of the P51. He spent considerable time with the above noted guy getting checked out in both. He soloed it just prior to the Merced fly in and took it there.

I talked with him about it. He said it is actually easier to fly and land than the AT-6. He said one of the major transition issues is power management. It is a discipline that is pretty contrary to most conventional instruction. If something is bad on approach you don't go to full power. I think he said it is 50% max!!

Wonder how long it took Tom Cruise to get checked out?
 
Hoe many are flying?

How many flying versions of the P-51 are out there anyway. I saw somewhere that 100 were going to Columbus for an event.

I'd be surprised if that many were still airworthy
 
Just got my new issue of Air and Space which has a cover story about Mustangs and restorations of them. 154 Are still airworthy...well maybe 153 now. It also mentions that at least 100 are expected to attend the event in Ohio this year.
 
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RV7Guy said:
Wonder how long it took Tom Cruise to get checked out?
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He can't fly solo because of studio contractual obligations.

I have a friend who has sold an airplane to Mr. Cruise, had a deal fall thru on another one (L-39), and lets just say he's a bit "different".

Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
Indy
 
Tom Cruise does fly his Mustangs solo. Just look at the Diane Sawyer interview a few months ago when he took her up for a ride. I have heard that he is very humble and just one of the guys when he is around his flying buddies. He has owned a succesion of airplanes including a Pitts S2B and a T-6 to prepare for the Mustang.
I owned a SNJ for 8 years and flew with Lew Shaw in Texas to do a P-51 LOA in his dual control 51. When we did full flap high angle of attack go arounds he said " when the right rudder pedal hits the floor DON"T give it any more power get the nose down and get the gear up." It didn't take much more than 50% power to get a positive rate of climb going. At altitude he had me set it up in a go around situation and come up to TO power briskly and over it would go. The Mustang is easier to land than the 6 but gets heavy on the controls at high speed and requires rudder trim corrections any time you change pitch or throttle settings. More stuff to pay attention to for engine management but what a thrill to have 1500+ horespower in your left hand. Don
 
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